[NFP] Religious Victory Elimination Thread

[Chefofrats]

It is really fascinating from a psychological and sociological perspective how seriously and personally some people take these threads. This is basicly a non-scientific poll on how people subjectively perceive a single aspect of a game. Nothing depends on this. Relax!

Amanitore/Nubia [2] (5-3) - why would you go for religious victory with one of the best warmonger civs, even if it does have some minor religious advantages?
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [10]
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [16]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [21]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [32]
Saladin/Arabia [31] (30+1) - A guaranteed prophet and positive network effects from having and spreading a religion.
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[JhGf_123]

Three of us posted almost simultaneously, so I hope I haven’t messed up the scoring.

I was going to make some of same points about Pericles/Gorgo as @CrabHelmet did (tho probs with less aggro). ‘Generating Faith’ can be broken down into three main categories:

(1) getting high adjacency on holy sites;
(2) filling up those holy sites with tier 1, 2, and 3 buildings;
(3) making those holy sites more cost effective by placing envoys in religious city states.

The Greeks don’t get specific bonuses to no. 1 (only Brazil, Poland, Indonesia, and Japan do), but they excel and no. 2 and 3. Highest culture = fastest access to holy site tier buildings; and spamming acropoleis = lockdown on any religious city states. Also, as Crabhelmet says don’t underestimate the sheer flexibility of an extra wildcard - it’s worth an upvote almost by itself. I’d honestly pick Gorgo for religion ahead of multiple Civs remaining for her wildcard & culture combo.

Now, compare these points to Cleopatra:
(1) Does she get high bonuses to holy site adjacency? Only if she picks a terrain specific pantheon, but that’s the same as everyone.
(2) can she fill up her holy sites quickly? Well, she gets a very minor bonus to placing them next to rivers, and the Sphinx grants a little culture. But the river bonus is almost negligible (15% is not a lot) and forces you to place the holy sites in unideal locations; while the Sphinx’s culture pales in comparison to Gorgo’s culture. So no, Cleo doesn’t get to fill her holy sites up remarkably quick.
(3) does she get special bonuses to envoys? Nope.
To be fair to Cleo, you could introduce a (4) in her case, namely, Faith from sphinxes (esp. in combo with earth goddess). But this is plain worse than any of the bonuses tied to holy sites, because improvements require population to work whereas district yields do not.
As for religious alliances, the reason no one had mentioned it yet is probably because it’s not really that important. Neat to have, sure, if you manage to reach the higher alliance levels - but that’s a slow-burner strategy in a game style which rewards speed.

And to wind this off, compare the three points to Pachacuti:
(1) high adjacency? Yup, from mountains.
(2) fill up holy sites fast? Yup, from having high production cities in general.
(3) envoys? No, not really.
Plus (4) tiles yielding Faith? Yes, earth goddess & mountains.

Hence why I think the order of elimination should be Cleo before Pachacuti, with Gorgo in the game for much, much longer.

Amanitore/Nubia [2] FWIW, I agree that her time has come. But I think Cleo’s time has also come too.
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [7] (10-3) see explanation above.
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17] (16+1) see explanation above.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [21]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6] Also see above.
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [32]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Solver]

Amanitore/Nubia (2 - 0) ELIMINATED Enough has been said, others have more going for a RV.
Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [7]
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [22] (21 + 1) I want to give Poland a bump just for that early Wildcard slot. The Religious Victory is the only victory type that you can be locked out of early, if you fail to get a Prophet. Jadwiga can start accumulating Prophet points the turn she discovers Mysticism, or speed up progress significantly if she already has a HS by that point.
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [32]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Francel]

I have been tracking the order in which civs are eliminated, and noticed a discrepancy with my list and the number remaining. It seems Kupe was inadvertently removed from the list, so I'm adding him back.

Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [4] (7-3) - I love Cleo personally, but river holy sites tend to be weaker, 15% isn't that much, and there are no built-in incentives as with Khmer. Religious alliance combat buff comes late to be of high importance imo.
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [14] (13+1) - Winning in theological combat is very important for protecting your faith and also helps to spread it. They can leverage a large advantage. It should be possible to get a religion if it is prioritized sufficiently even at high difficulties (holy site project).
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [22]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [32]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [4] Sphinx combined with Earth Goddess can generate a lot of faith. This one shall not go that early
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15] (14+1) - This one is in top 5, surely. The high bonus means it doesn't need to worry about being killed when using missionaries to spread religion in foreign countries, and that surely helps a lot. I guess only Russia Japan China Greece Arabia Poland have bonus towards recruiting prophets. And China and Poland's bonuses are not significant.
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [19=22-3] Tiny bonus on Holy Site adj and nothing else. Honestly speaking, you won't get a lot of relic in religious victory. That's for culture victory and need Martyr, I don't think anyone will use Martyr in religious victory.
The largest bonus may be the running of the Prophet +2 card early, however this is much worse than Greece's as you use a precious 2nd policy slot.
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [32]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[TCBB]

Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [1] (4-3) Both Cleo and Pachacuti can accumulate a lot of faith under the right circumstances: Cleo by using her Sphinxes, Pachacuti by using his mountains adjacency, and both by picking Earth Goddess. I think that Pachacuti slightly edges it because his start is likely to have more production than Cleo’s. But TBH, I don’t think it really matters which one goes before the other: neither is going to win this thread, and Top 15 is still a respectable finish.
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [19]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [33] (32+1) Although Saladin is undoubtedly top 5 material, I think he’s getting far too close to Peter. So rather than downvote Saladin, I’ll give another vote to Peter for now: we can reserve the debate over which is better for a later date.
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Leucarum]

Chandragupta/India [16]
Cleopatra/Egypt [0] (1-3) ELIMINATED - when I played her I never found that her sphinxes generated much faith, she was usually starved of good holy site locations... Am I missing why she stayed in this long?
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [16] (15+1) Religious victory is a lot less tedious when you apostle smash your way to victory rather than just play conversion whack a mole and genghis does that well.
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [19]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [26]
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

Edit : Added back Chandragupta

 

[TCBB]

Also I just realised, I cut Chandragupta by accident.

 

[bengalryan9]

A lot of people seem to be confusing "ability to get a pantheon" with "ability to get a great prophet". One is FAR more important than the other. If you miss a great prophet while going for an RV, it's game over.

It is really fascinating from a psychological and sociological perspective how seriously and personally some people take these threads. This is basicly a non-scientific poll on how people subjectively perceive a single aspect of a game. Nothing depends on this. Relax!

It *is* possible that people could just be typing out their reasoning without being worked up at all.

Chandragupta/India [16]
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [16]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [20] (19+1) Nobody who can run the GPP card before unlocking political philosophy should be getting downvoted yet. She's got enough other things going for her on top of that to make her interesting beyond that as well.
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19] You can talk about RV being all about speed as much as you want... if you're not Kupe, you're stuck waiting until Cartography.
Mansa Musa/Mali [23] (26-3) After reading through pages of "Canada's production is too low to found a religion", why is Mali so high up? How exactly is he going to field the troops he needs to defend himself AND build a holy site AND run prayers in a timely manner? You can't even tell me he'll just spend a bunch of gold, because he doesn't get any gold bonuses until you pop out at least one builder to put down mines (and if you're going to say "just take the builder pantheon", that means no desert pantheon). Yes he gets a lot of faith from the beginning, but that doesn't matter for RV if he can't get a prophet.
Pachacuti/Inca [6]
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[lotrmith]

Chandragupta/India [16]
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13] 16 - 3 Once again given that players have confirmed that Scythia and Aztec used to have military bonuses apply to religious combat but that is no longer the case, I'm still waiting for anyone to confirm this is still the case for Mongolia.

That aside, Mongolia no bonuses towards founding a religion (the most important factor) or to faith generation either through adjacency or otherwise (the second most important factor).

Even if they get stronger apostles, they may not found a religion at all, nor have the faith bank to spend on many apostles. And even then, religious combat is very random in that you cannot depend on it to occur where you need it rather than operating redundantly where your religion is already dominant..

It would be so hilarious if the sole reason Mongolia is still around isn't even applicable.
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [27]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [7] 6 + 1 Huge cities are basically immune to opposing pressure. Mountain bias and superior movement through mountain chains means tons of high adjacency holy sites. Tons of holy sites means tons of passive pressure (holy sites make a city exert twice as much pressure as without). Tons of workable mountains with earth goddess means even more faith.
Pedro/Brazil [22]
Peter/Russia [33] Literally nobody said Canada is better than Russia, by the way. Just that the reason for Canada's downvotes also apply to Russia.
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Josephias]

Chandragupta/India [16]
Gandhi/India [25]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13] @lotrmith: it is applicable, because Mongolia receives +CS from diplomatic visibility bonuses, and these bonuses do apply to apostles in the current build (checked in my last Indonesia game). However, what we do not take into account is these bonuses would be negated end-game if your enemy invests in your visibility (yes, you gain an additional level from trading posts, but there is not an extra "mongolia top secret" level. If your adversary reaches top secret on you, your extra combat strenght is effectively negated). I mentioned it in a previous post but it may not have catched the eye because I was downvoting Genghis. As you said, there is no help for Genghis to retrieve a GP, and other civs with the same problem have already gone, so I do not see why Genghis keeps receiving upvotes.
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28] (27+1) Haven't upvoted him yet, and he is quite solid towards religion. Half priced holy sites help at the start, and can boost adjacency in the long run. Probably Hojo's CS bonuses do not apply to apostles either, but if they did, it would be a hidden contender for top spots.
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [19]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [7]
Pedro/Brazil [19] (22-3) If I underestand it right, Pedro's patronizing will not allow you to rush your Great Prophet, because you are refunded a part of the cost once paying the full amount (useful if you want to use the faith/money for other things, or to get several GP in a row, but that does not apply to the single Great Prophet you need to catch). Adjacency from jungles with the right panteon is good, but - on the other side of the coin than for Hojo-, you will need to lose some of that adjacency in the long run in order to place new districts/wonders. Pedro is a neat contender, but there are few options to downvote now.
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Hans Castorp]

*Restored Gitarja at [20] - missing since Lily Lancer's last post.

Chandragupta/India [16]
Gandhi/India [26] 25+1 A point mostly for the extra spreads for missionaries. Decent faith production, though vanilla in terms of getting a GP. LUA not so amazing as to justify an especially big gap between Gandhi and Chandragupta, but it is a faith bonus, and in early game on larger maps, can count for a fair amount of faith generation.
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [13]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [11]
Kupe/Maori [16] [19-3] Culture output high; potentially excellent faith output, pantheon depending; can cross oceans early. On the flip-side, no spread or combat bonus for religious units, and no direct bonus to building HS or getting GP.
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [7]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Civ Chemist]

I can confirm that the extra CS does apply to Mongolia. The difference between Genghis and Tomyris/Monty is that his increased CS comes from higher diplo visibility. And this applies to every civ. The big difference of course is that he doubles that CS and has access to an additional tool to increase diplo vis.: i.e trading post. For every other civ sending delegation (denying them to the AI) + active trade route results in +6 CS, but for Mongolia it is +18 CS (enough to one shot missionaries and debater apostles can even one shot non-debater apostles).

And with all that extra CS you don't really need that much faith. Compared to other civs he needs a lot less apostles to achieve the same goal. And besides unless I get lucky with the right terrain + pantheon most of my faith is not coming from holy site adjacency but from its building (+ potential religious city states), holy site prayers and of course the pilgrimge belief. Another key aspect of my strategy is to grab missionary zeal. For Mongolia that means that a single apostles can convert a ton of cities simply by hunting down enemy missionaries. And since a single early apostle can convert so many cities by killing enemy missionaries that extra faith from pilgrimage really starts to shine. Just looking at my last Genghis game, I had only settled a total of 3 cities and by T80 I had almost 200 faith/turn

Now to be fair you only have access to a single trade route at the beginning of the game and you won't be able to reach civs on the other side of the map yet so I can understand that some won't find that ability that impressive. But that just means you should prioritize getting up a few commercial hubs/harbors after finishing your holy sites and you can even do some tricks like send a trade route to a city state to establish a trading post, then cancel the trade route by declaring war and sending it to a civ you wouldn't be able to reach before.

Concerning the argument that they have no advantage to founding a religion. Honestly I have never really had a lot of trouble founding a religion even on deity with this build order: Scout - (slinger) - settler - holy sites in both cities (all 3 cities if you can grab religious settlement) and then depending on competition shrine or holy site prayer. Just try to avoid completing too many techs/civis before placing your holy sites so their cost does not increase too much.

Chandragupta/India [16]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [14] (13+1): See above. Though, I might be biased, because I just recently won with him my fastest ever (religious) victory beating the likes of Brazil, Gandhi and even Russia.
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [8] (11-3): I think he is the weakest left. I really like playing reliquaries culture games, but I don't think that is the best strategy for religious victories.
1. To make relics work you need to grab reliquaries and unless you get lucky with an early relic or have Kandy in the game you don't get anything out of that belief for a long time and you'd be much better off getting work ethic or of course choral music (if it is still available).
2. You cannot control when the AI is killing your missionaries so I would often just wonder around in the hope of finding apostles and when I finally find one they would often just go the other way or are immediately used to encance their religion. So if you want to go for relics you are better off using apostles + Mont St. Michel. At least they can suicide on enemy missionaries.
3. To mitigate to loss of religious pressure you probably want to grab Monastic Isolation. But unless I'm completely mistaken even though you don't lose religious pressure the enemy still gains religious pressure for killing your units. And if you grab Monastic Isolation you are not taking Missionary Zeal (or even holy order) which is just so much better for religious victories.
4. So yes, while you certainly can gain insane amounts of faith from reliquaries it is not exactly a fast strategy. And the longer the game lasts the more difficult (or tedious) a religious victory becomes.

Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [7]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Chandragupta/India [17] (16+1) I think he should be higher because the bulk of India's religious power comes from the UI and Civ Ability. I think Gandhi's LA, while not all that great, does provide an edge to RV over Chandy, but not by much. Stepwells provide a good, modest early source of faith and combined with Varu, can enable an early golden age to take advantage of Exodus. The +2 spread missionaries is where India really shines though. It's the equivalent of having 40% cheaper religious units, or requiring 40% less faith. If you want to spread religion 15 times, other civs need 5 missionaries; India needs only 3. Chandy in an Exodus Golden age, using his CB, has 8 movement, 7 spread missionaries. Perfect for blitzing the world.
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [14] Just wanted to point out that he got indirectly buffed in the June Update: The new Holy Waters belief, which allows you to heal your apostles in foreign cities with Holy sites belonging to your religion. This means you can have a pack of apostles on the other side of the world constantly fighting, then healing back up, then fighting again. No need to withdraw your apostles to heal, nor wait 15 turns for reinforcements to arrive. Just keep a "beachhead" and you'll be nigh impossible for an enemy to evict. Sure, every civ can take advantage of this belief, but it goes much further for Genghis.
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [5] (8-3) To their credit, I eventually get some of the highest faith per turn with them than any other civ, barring a wide Russian lavra spam game. The problem is getting there though. They're actually pretty bad at doing quick victories. I won an RV with them two weeks ago, even had Kandy in the game, and it was still my slowest RV ever. It doesn't really matter if you're pulling 700 faith a turn if you don't have any edge to theological combat, or if your apostles can't get there any quicker. It just turned into a late game slog that i wanted to get over with. Everything else isn't that geared towards religion... Even river goddess is not great for RV, but for helping you get tall cities instead. It's better to go wide and get your missionaries and apostles out early - something this civ struggles with.
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [7]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[enKage]

I took few days off, as I didn't want to constantly downvote Wilfred. Finally this absurd came to the end, let us stay with consensus that Canada is better for RV than Spain and other civs with direct small bonus to RV like Cathy's France, Hungary, Perocles etc.


Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15] (14+1) The strongest religious civ cannot stay below 15
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [17]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [5]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [4] 7-3 Time to kill all civs without direct bonuses to faith / apostles / holy sites. After last patches AI takes Earth Goddess fairly often. Also note Persia, monster earth goddes civ, is already eliminated, as well ac Cleo. Contender for top half should have sth more than relying on one certain pantheon, without having a bonus to get that pantheon (I look t you again, Canada)
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [24]

 

[JesseS]

Chandragupta/India [17] I think Chandra is suffering from a similar thing to Pericles vs Gorgo--Gandhi just has a noticeable edge on him for most religious victories.
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [18](17+1) Great early culture from barb kills, envoys from acropoli means you can control all the religious city states, and the extra wildcard slot means you get a pantheon and religion faster.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [5]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [4]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [21] (24-3) I think it's about time for Georgia to start going. Their bonuses are: easier chained golden ages than other civs, extra envoys with city-states you've converted, a temporary boost to faith after declaring a protectorate war, and extra faith after getting renaissance walls. So they have no early faith for a pantheon or assistance for getting a religion, and their mid-to-late game faith boosts are situational. Contesting religious conversion of city-states can burn through missionary/apostle charges fast, renaissance walls come pretty late for a religious victory, and the opportunity for a protectorate war while your faith gen is high enough to matter may or may not happen.

 

[Dantesedge]

Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [18]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29] (28+1) Hojo just has so many ways to maximize his city planning adjacency yields without relying on desert/tundra/mountains, and the half priced Holy Sites help with getting a great prophet and build early faith. I feel like Peter and Saladin have the #1 and #2 spot, but I think Hojo or Mansa are strong contenders for third place.
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [5]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [1] (4-3) The adjacency bonuses can be quite good, and they do get some extra food and production right out the gate to build HS faster even without an inherent bonus... but now that we're down to the final 15, I think they have the weakest religious game. Sad to downvote them, but to be honest, I'd be sad to down vote any of the ones left as they are all pretty good at religion.
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [21] I'd throw a vote to her but I still am trying to spread my votes and I've already given her two upvotes this thread. Maybe tomorrow or the next day if she's still around. I think Tamar's ability to chain Exodus for three eras is exceptionally strong, giving her an early game advantage before the Tsike's, faith bonuses, and whatever city states she's got help carry her mid-game. Not Top 5 material but strong enough to finish in the final 10 I believe.

 

[bbbt]

Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [19] 18+1 - The ability to get the Great Prophet +2 policy card up extremely quickly (from culture from kills and the bonus wildcard spot), is a huge advantage. That's the equivalent to a holy site plus a shrine, and allows her to almost unfailing to snag a religion if she wants it, it not the first. Bonus envoys allow her to quickly grab religious CS'es. Early uniques mean a likely early golden age.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [2] 5-3 - I rather enjoy playing as Khmer, but I don't think they are exceptional at RV despite being a religious themed civ. The big pluses are the growth bonuses from holy sites, and a relic strategy. But they have no bonuses to actually building a holy site quickly, getting a pantheon quickly, getting a great prophet quickly, or spreading religion more than average. And the reliquaries strategy actually involves sacrificing units and theoretically losing religious ground in order to gain bonus faith in the long run. I think it's actually a bigger asset to a cultural victory than a religious one.
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [1]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [31]
Tamar/Georgia [21]

It *is* possible that people could just be typing out their reasoning without being worked up at all.

Definitely - I think a lot of the appeal of these (at least to me!) is it's fun to 'argue' about something that I have a decent amount of experience with, but is essentially meaningless/has no real world consequences.

 

[Kwami]

Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [16] (19 - 3) How is Gorgo at 19 when Pericles was eliminated? Gorgo is great, but she's not that much better than Pericles. He also gets the free wildcard slot, the easy culture, the bonus envoys, and so on. He doesn't get the culture from kills, but how many kills are you getting that early anyway? If you're building a bunch of units to hunt barbarians, then you probably aren't building holy sites and settlers and the like. Honestly, these threads never make much sense.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [2]
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [1]
Pedro/Brazil [19]
Peter/Russia [33]
Saladin/Arabia [32] (31 + 1) A guaranteed prophet and super cheap (or free) worship buildings is pretty great.
Tamar/Georgia [21]

 

[monikernemo]

Yes getting a pantheon might not be as important as securing a GP but you are ignoring the fact that if getting a pantheon is central to your faith generating strategy, then it is important secure a good pantheon to ensure RV?

Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Genghis Khan/Mongolia [15]
Gitarja/Indonesia [20]
Gorgo/Greece [16]
Not upvoting Gorgo, but why I think Gorgo is better than Pericles on paper:
Pericles bonus kick in much later. Gorgo unlocks revelation earlier just by building units. I mean there were some arguments for Canada to mitigate surprise war am I right? So whats even better is if the AI declares war on you so you can unlock bonus culture if you kill their unit.

Also I think there is some appeal for not building holy sites and farming GPP earlier solely by running the GPP card. In fact you earn GPP faster than some one having a holy site and a shrine, which is quite abit of investment

In the worst case scenario you can declare war on a useless city states to farm culture.

Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
Jadwiga/Poland [20]
Jayavarman/Khmer [0] Eliminated. Missionary suicide is just counteracts RV since like someone pointed out, either you lose a good enhancer belief or you have to use more faith to increase religious pressure from missionary suicide.
Kupe/Maori [16]
Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
Pachacuti/Inca [1]
Pedro/Brazil [20] (19 + 1) These cities grow fast, and can run projects quickly too.
Peter/Russia [33] Well, still I don't understand how one can apply downvotes for Canada to Russia when clearly Russia has so much going for them.
Saladin/Arabia [32]
Tamar/Georgia [21]