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[NFP] Religious Victory Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Francel, Jun 25, 2020.

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  1. Solver

    Solver Grumpy Civ beta tester

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    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [6]
    Gitarja/Indonesia ELIMINATED (3-3) I think it's the end of the road for her. I've won RV with Gitarja. She gets a bit of extra faith if the map suits her, but it's really not that much adjacency. Probably no more than the Incans can get with their mountain bonus. Beyond that, she doesn't get much, nor does she get any help in recruiting a Prophet. It's for this reason I think Gorgo should take the #10 spot and not Gitarja. The Prophet wildcard does more for the RV than Indonesia's small faith bonus.
    Gorgo/Greece [4]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [30]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [14]
    Peter/Russia [38]
    Saladin/Arabia [28] (27 + 1) I'm sure Saladin is in the top 3, and I'd even consider him for the top spot. It's not just the guaranteed Prophet, it's the way the civ as a whole becomes more powerful from spreading its religion. Spread it abroad and you get science. Spread it at home and, after unlocking the T3 building, you get culture, faith and more science. Everything about Saladin screams religious victory.
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
  2. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3] (6-3) - The Religious Combat bonuses are nice and all, but there's no Faith here, no Culture here, no Holy Site bonuses here, no early seafaring here, etc. A one-trick pony at this point.
    Gorgo/Greece [4]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [30]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [14]
    Peter/Russia [39] (38+1) - I don't think I've actually upvoted Peter yet and I sort of feel obligated to if only because he is by far and away the best Religious Civ in the game and it would feel improper to be so distracted by the elimination candidates as to not recognise that.
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
  3. JhGf_123

    JhGf_123 Chieftain

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    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3]
    Gorgo/Greece [4]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31] (30+1) i think he got unfairly downvoted: half price holy sites is *certainly* enough to put him in contention for 2nd place. It guarantees him a prophet and it guarantees him high faith output — both essential for religious victory. And Meiji Restoration also guarantees him high adjacencies, not only on his holy sites but on *any* district. This translates into high production for tier 2/3 buildings or religious wonders; into high culture for early temples and theocracy; and into high science for cartography. He’s seriously good.
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [11] (14-3) Letting someone else decide which of Gorgo / Genghis gets 11th / 10th spots. I agree that Brazil or Georgia are the obvious contenders for next elimination (I would add Mali but people seem to strongly disagree). Brazil’s holy site adjacencies can be very good, especially with the current version of “work ethic” — but that’s all he has. It’s a darn good bonus, but at this stage it’s not enough to propel him any higher.
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
  4. Weraptor

    Weraptor King

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    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3]
    Gorgo/Greece [1] (4-3) While not terribly so, the civ isn't geared towards a RV as much as DV or even CV. While being at war (even early on), you risk death of your religious units, vasting a lot of faith.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [32] (31+1) Haven't given Hojo any shoutout yet. It's about time I do so.
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [11]
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
  5. Naeshar

    Naeshar Warlord

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    I am not joining the Gorgo/Genghis decision either. I don't know the changes to India, but the old one was for Gandhi only and not that much powerful. The Stepwell helps very little.
    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3]
    Gorgo/Greece [1]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [33] (32+1) Japan has great advantage in cheap districts and consistent adjacency. Hard to miss RV.
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [8] (11-3) faith adjacency in not ideal terrain is the only thing Brazil has. No Prophet points, no combat bonuses. It seems all of you play standard civ placement only. I play balanced starts and the civs don't get their bonuses consistently. Landing in tundra is more crippling for Pedro than landing in jungle for Peter.
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
  6. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

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    Chandragupta/India [18]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3] Not upvoting again, but I'm glad to see he survided at least this long. Personally I'd put him a bit higher but top 10/11 is not that bad. And as long as this thread has given some people some new appreciation for his religious strenght and incentivized them to try him out I'm happy. And that is what this thread really is all obout, giving some people new prespectives on some civs they might not have considered.
    Gorgo/Greece [1]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [33]
    Jadwiga/Poland [19] (22-3): Not sure she deserves to be this high. The main thing she has going for her is the convertion of a military to wildcard slot and the +1 adjacency on holy sites. But I don't think that is enough at that point:
    1. If you want to maximize that adjacency you probably have to sacrifice adjacency on other districs. And while I praised the standard adjacency on Japan in my previous post the big differences are: Japan gets half price holy sites (saving a lot of production, especially in newer cities) but also the half price theater square (and encampments) allowing them to get high adjacency holy sties up much faster. And with all those half price districts it is also much easier to take advantage of the district discount on other districts. And of course the standard adjacency also applies to all other districts giving japan just more of everything.
    2. Not sure how impactful the wildcard slot actually is. Sure, it allows you to run both god king and urban planning and later to get a great prophet faster. But that also comes with an opportunity cost. If you are running those policies you are not getting the +5CS against barbs. This might seem minor but it can be the difference between clearing a barb camp just in time before it starts spamming units or killing that scout before it can return to the camp. And the last thing you want to do when going for a religion is to fight off barbs early game instead on focusing on expansion or getting your religion. Also for me personally founding a religion has very rarely been a real problem. I think the last time I failed at getting one was just after the release of GS with Mali, where I just didn't pay attention at the great prophet race. Besides is it just me or does the AI not prioritze religion as highly anymore and it is not unusual to still see 1 religion still being available long after entering the classical era.
    3. Her other bonuses are really minor or situational: Extra faith, culture and gold on relics is great if you actually find one or spawn next to kandy but most of the time completely inconsequential. And the convertion with culture bombs is too situational and comes too late to matter. It's great for some kind of crusade domination (since you want to save faith for unit purchasing) but fairly useless in religious games.

    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [9] (8+1): Will always have a soft spot for him. I'm probably biased but I always seem to be doing very well with him in religious games. Even without sacred path he will usually have much better holy site adjacency then most other civs. He can also get amazing faith generation from earth goddess. I think he is consistent enough to stay a little longer and situationally (sacred path + work ethic) stronger than any civ on the list. I would certainly rank him above Georgia and maybe even higher than Poland
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8]
     
    TCBB likes this.
  7. King William I

    King William I Prince

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    Chandragupta/India [18] - 3 = 15

    Don't get me wrong. India has good abilities, but if I'm going for a religious victory as them, I'm playing Gandhi, not Chandragupta

    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [3]
    Gorgo/Greece [1]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [33]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [8] +1=9

    I play a lot of RV games and my fastest ones are always as Tamar. Strength in Unity is just too good, even if you don't get the Classical Golden Age
     
  8. Leucarum

    Leucarum King

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    Chandragupta/India [15]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [4] (3+1) Every combat boost helps in the apostle wars.
    Gorgo/Greece [0] (1-3) ELIMINATED - She should have gone far before Pericles in my opinion.

    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [33]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [9]
     
  9. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Chandragupta/India [15] @Naeshar the big change was with Gathering Storm. India gained +1 amenity per religion present in a city, +2 charges for all missionaries, and +100% religious pressure from trade routes. All this was added to the 'Dharma' bonus shared by Chandragupta and Gandhi, and was a pretty massive buff to both leaders in the early game. So the only advantage Gandhi has over Chandy is 'Satyagraha', which gives him +5 faith per foreign religion he has met (and isn't at war with). That some very useful extra faith in the early game, but I still reckon India's main strength lies in 'Dharma', which both leaders benefit from, and not 'Satyagraha'.
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [1] (4-1) Now Gorgo is gone I have no qualms downvoting Genghis. Powerful apostles, yes, but needs to grab a religion and generate faith in order to get there – and he has no particular bonuses to either. His time is up.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [34] (33+1) Pretty much exactly what previous posters have said. Strong faith, strong culture, strong science, and practically guaranteed a prophet – he gets my vote to battle for no. 2 spot behind Peter.
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [9]
     
  10. _Malachite_

    _Malachite_ Chieftain

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    Chandragupta/India [16] (15+1) I will have to disagree with the downvote that Chandragupta received this early on. Compared to Gandhi, he loses out on 25 faith per turn in a 5-religion game in favour of being better in wars. It's a decent trade in my opinion. Chandragupta maintains India's strongest religious buffs while providing a safety net to players against the AI's military hordes, which is a constant concern in RV games.
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [1]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [34]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [39]
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [6] (9-3) Compared to Brazil's insane holy site adjacency bonuses and Mongolia's supercharged apostles, I feel like Georgia's lock on city states and post-Classical Golden Ages fall flat (relatively speaking). So out of the 3 straggling civs, I think Georgia should be eliminated first.


    Edited my post to reflect the changes made by TCBB, who posted their message just before I did.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  11. kryat

    kryat King

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [1]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31] (34-3) Maybe I’m in the minority, but I don’t think Japan deserves to be this high. They’re top 10 for sure, but number 2? I don’t think so. To review, their main bonuses are half price holy sites (allowing spam, and early prophet), potential high adjacencies, and generally better than average other districts. However, they have disadvantages as well. They do not have any form of enhanced missionaries/apostles, their uniques come sort of late, and their adjacencies take serious time and population to build up. They also have no bonus to pantheon founding, so some of the better ones may be taken already (though Japan has no strong preference for any).

    In more detail:

    Japan has by my counting the third best way to guarantee a religion, after Arabia, then Russia. This is strong, but not enough. Gorgo, Pericles, and Jadwiga all have nearly equivalently easy paths, and they didn’t get this high.

    Japan has the third best adjacencies for holy sites, after Russia and Brazil. But Canada, Nubia, Australia, and Mali all have biases that can typically get them better adjacencies than Japan, especially off-the-bat. True, Japan can build them faster, and speed is important in the religion game, but once they get them, their missionaries/apostles tend to be weaker than India, Mongolia, or Georgia, and have no special conversion tricks like Poland or Spain, requiring more religious units. And they don’t make so much more faith that they can afford that. You need at least pop 7 to get to +3 in blank terrain, probably 10 for more optimal placement. That takes time to get to, and Japan doesn’t get bonuses to growth unless they take feed the world.

    Japan also can’t run both work ethic and god-king, like Greece, and have no outright faith bonuses like Indonesia, Mali, India, or Russia to get early pantheons.

    Japan can also build theater squares with great adjacencies, and can build them cheaply for a fast way to theology/theocracy. But so can Greece, and Greece gets faster envoys for it. And Gorgo, Rome, and Russia definitely have a better early culture game.

    Poland also can indirectly get close to holy sites build speed, because their trade routes guarantee production and growth. It’s not enough to make up for half-price districts, but it’s strong enough to warrant discussion.

    So who’s better than them? Definitely Russia. Probably Arabia and India. Arguably Poland and Mali.

    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [40] (39+1) Without a doubt though, Russia deserves to be the king of this list. They are nearly guaranteed a religion, have massive adjacencies compared to anyone (only rivaled by Brazil), and have better starting yields in all cities due to territory grab. You probably also can get your pick of pantheon by working nearby tundra tiles. Oh, and you get culture from trade, and all the GWAM, so you hit theology/theocracy lightning fast.
    Saladin/Arabia [27]
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  12. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Genghis Khan/Mongolia [eliminated] (1-3) As stated above, yeah the strong apostles are nice (though tends towards overkill TBH), but you get no bonus for great prophets, no bonus to holy sites, no bonus to faith production, and no bonuses to culture or science either. You also get the joy of putting up with the AI constantly bothering you to accept their delegations or embassies for the whole game no matter how many times you turn them down as you try to maximize your combat strength bonus. Fun!
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [40]
    Saladin/Arabia [28] (27+1) Even ignoring the fact that he gets a free religion every single time (which is still a very big deal), he's probably the best at science left on the list if he's pursuing a religious victory. While we've emphasized faith and culture, you *do* need science to get to cartography in order to reach other continents. Saladin gets +1 science for every foreign city he converts, and the Madrasa ensures that he even gets faith from his campuses as well.
    Tamar/Georgia [6]
     
  13. Josephias

    Josephias Emperor

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [21]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [40]
    Saladin/Arabia [29] (28+1) Even if following the arguments and debate in this thread Hojo has replaced Saladin in my view as potential #1 challenger to Peter, I think he has gone to low on. As commented by previous upvoters, the best about Saladin is most efforts you do towards RV also benefit your civ in other ways. I'm not sure Peter can say the same.
    Tamar/Georgia [3] (6-3) Genghis gone out, I'm left with Tamar to downvote if I don't want to repeat on Pedro. Checking in detail, Tamar's chances to a Classical era Golden Age (that would be the one that could be used to gain a Great Prophet) is equal to other civs, and she has also no early bonuses that could help her in the race, so she may be as well in the field of "nice RV bonuses if you start well, but if not, it is over".
     
  14. lotrmith

    lotrmith King

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    On this hill I will die. Russia is #2 to Mali.

    -Mali won't be beat to Desert Folklore same as Russia won't be beat to Dance of the Aurora, but Russia needs to work the tundra tiles to get that early faith. Mali gets up to 6 bonus faith (and food, more on that later) just for settling, and doesn't have to work the desert tiles but can instead work more productive tiles outside the desert.
    -Mali desert cities grow faster and larger than Russian tundra cities and thus quicker and more often work more tiles for more production and support more districts.
    -Mali fund their culture by simply instantly buying monuments in every city. Russia must build theater squares *and amphitheaters* to house works of writing, in cities that lack the population for extra districts in an empire that lacks the gold to support even just the Lavra and shrine/temple spam.
    -Where Russia gets their Lavras online in half the time, Mali instantly buys shrines and temples while Russia has to hard build them.
    -Mali cities are far more likely to get the full benefit of 10 population to buff said shrines and temples at Theocracy/Simultaneum.
    -Mali gets a consistent 20% faith discount on purchases.

    I could go on but I'll save the rest for rebuttals.

    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
    Jadwiga/Poland [22]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [22] 21 + 1
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [37] 40 - 3
    Saladin/Arabia [29]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  15. Hans Castorp

    Hans Castorp Prince

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
    Jadwiga/Poland [19] 22-3 Not a vote intended to say they are worse than Georgia, but I think they are currently over blessed with points. The culture bomb is nifty, but marginal unless you have a particularly strong religious neighbour. Similarly with relics - great if you get them, but not something to count on. Wildcard is useful, though they lack the quick-fix culture generation of early-game Gorgo that would allow them to power their way to slotting the GP card quickly. That leaves the adjacency bonus. This can be good, but it is slow to really build up. A pantheon adjacency bonus comes immediately (ditto mountains). Relying on district adjacency alone, you would be in the medieval era before it becomes worth much. Japan has a number of quick-build districts to help with this problem. Poland doesn't. You can, to be sure, aim to have a few mountains in the mix to maximise the bonus quickly. But overall Poland comes by faith more slowly than most of the remaining.
    Mansa Musa/Mali [23] (22+1) I don't agree that they are better than Russia - Russia are generally much quicker to the GP and usually have the pick of things like choral music. But for a'that and a'that, I agree with much of what lotrmith argues. Faith generation is extravagant with Mali and once you are over the initial hump with unit production, production of districts is seldom an issue as population growth and, if needs be, domestic trade routes (and you should have plenty of trade routes to go round) takes care of problems even in low-production desert cities.

    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [37]
    Saladin/Arabia [29]
    Tamar/Georgia [3]
     
  16. Francel

    Francel Warlord

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28] (31-3) - Half price districts are nice, but unlike Germany they can't build more districts than population allows; the extra district adjacency is actually not that strong at this point compared to what Brazil, Mali, and even Poland can do. Highly overrated IMO.
    Jadwiga/Poland [19]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [23]
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [37]
    Saladin/Arabia [29]
    Tamar/Georgia [4] (3+1) - This is about saving Georgia from going next, even though they may still ultimately be the next ones eliminated. Their kit just works well together in my opinion. The key points have been made already 1) Chain golden ages with conversion --> more conversion --> golden age 2) Extra faith from protectorate (+100%) - not the greatest but not nothing either 3) Double envoys at city-states with shared religion (2 and 3 work well together and 4) Cheaper walls are icing on the cake that helps shore up defenses from aggressive neighbors while you focus on other things like wonders and infrastructure

    In addition to the perks of Tamar, it is just as important to explain at this point why others deserve to go first.

    Firstly, thoughts about founding a religion. Anyone can do this even on deity pretty much if you follow the order of researching astrology, making a holy site, and running the project. However, this does limit your ability to do other things at the same time if you are so inclined. Arabia isn't S tier just because they are guaranteed a prophet - it's because they have the flexibility to do whatever they want and still get a religion. Admittedly if you want the culture or food follower beliefs in particular, you may miss out by going last, but others have a good chance of still being available - work ethic, divine inspiration, etc.

    I would personally put Arabia, Russia, and India (Gandhi) in the top 3, not necessarily in that order. Thus, Japan is the most overrated at the moment, which is why I downvoted them (thinking of the big picture).

    Half price holy sites are good, but unlike Germany, they don't get to build an extra district. So population and competition between other districts is still a limiting factor. The extra faith adjacency is also good, but it's not *that* impressive compared to what some of the others can get, especially Brazil and Mali among the ones left. Call me crazy, but I'm not even sure Japan should be top 5. Chandragupta, Jadwiga, Mansa Musa, and Pedro might actually all be a little better.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  17. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Prince

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28]
    Jadwiga/Poland [19]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [24] (23 + 1): Mali on the other hand, I think are surprisingly strong. The bonus faith on desert tiles makes it almost a guarantee to get first pantheon, the faith purchasing discount from the Suguba is great, and your start bias makes it likely that you can make good use of Desert Folklore, should you choose to use it. The only problem with Mali is that their production hit makes it so you really have to beeline your Holy Sites, but in a Religious Victory, you're going to do that anyways. Mali's purchase-heavy style of play also means that your infrastructure won't be hurt too hard by putting all your eggs in a religious basket further down the line.
    Pedro II/Brazil [8]
    Peter/Russia [37]
    Saladin/Arabia [29]
    Tamar/Georgia [1] (4 -3): To me, there's just too many hoops to jump through to make Tamar truly top tier at a religious victory. Yeah, if you can get the CB online, the amount of faith is truly insane. However, that CB is a really specific circumstance to make frequent use of. And otherwise, you don't really get anything that helps you found or spread a religion, barring the Tsikhe (and I don't think I need to explain why a Renaissance Walls replacement isn't that helpful for a religious victory). Personally, I think Tamar's best victory type is a Diplomatic Victory with a religious flavor. She's not bad at a Religious Victory either, but she's clearly the worst here.
     
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  18. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

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    Looks like my votes were overlooked

    Jadwiga/Poland should be 16 and Pedro II/Brazil at 9
     
  19. BenitoChavez

    BenitoChavez Whispering Walrus

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [28]
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29] = 28 + 1. Big adjacency bonuses and half the production cost for the two most important districts for RV.
    Jadwiga/Poland [16]
    Mansa Musa/Mali [24]
    Pedro II/Brazil [9]
    Peter/Russia [37]
    Saladin/Arabia [26] = 29 - 3. Seems overrated. Founding a religion isn't terribly difficult and the rest of his bonuses come relatively late for a RV.
    Tamar/Georgia [1]
     
  20. Kmart_Elvis

    Kmart_Elvis King

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    Chandragupta/India [16]
    Gandhi/India [29] (28+1) My vote for the #2 spot. He has multiple sources of faith and his missionaries are 40% stronger -- and that is how you win RVs.
    Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
    Jadwiga/Poland [13] (16-3) I'm thinking now is the time to start dropping Poland because the competition is so strong at this point. Converting by culture bombs is situational and limited in scope. Holy sites get +1 Faith from adjacent districts, but Japan has that too. They get some nice relics (provided you grab Reliquaries), but it comes late and St. Michel is an absolute necessity if you do that. Personally I think Khmer plays the relics game better and they're long gone. Finally the wildcard for founding a religion sooner isn't as important as it used to be back in the vanilla days. It's so much easier to found a religion now. Poland just has a lot of small bonuses which can't compete.
    Mansa Musa/Mali [24]
    Pedro II/Brazil [9]
    Peter/Russia [37]
    Saladin/Arabia [26]
    Tamar/Georgia [1]
     
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