[NFP] Religious Victory Elimination Thread

[TCBB]

@lotrmith, chill out man, it's just a thread. I'm also surprised to see how fast Mansa Musa has tumbled since I last checked, but people are allowed to have opinions. Posting three example games was a good way for you to argue in Mali's favour: I enjoyed that a lot. But you're now ruining it with hyperbolic statements, personal attacks, and arguments from emotion. If anything, these just make me want to downvote Mali even more.

LAST MINUTE EDIT: I was going to use my votes to eliminate Jadwiga, but Malachite got there just before me. So Mansa Musa it is. Not that anyone needs to get emotional over this, it's simply me agreeing that he is the weakest left.

Chandragupta/India [17]
Gandhi/India [26]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [13] (16-3) Like I said, I wasn't going to. But with Jadwiga gone he's the weakest left *in my opinion* (note the subjectivity). I personally think that early surprise wars are a serious threat on Deity - in fact, I was under the impression this was something people generally agreed on? - and Mali are clearly the most vulnerable to falling at this first hurdle. If you survive it, then go ahead, reap your divine rewards; but it's definitely a bigger 'if' than any other leader. Can't win a RV if you've already been killed, can you.
Peter/Russia [38] Besides, it's pretty obvious that Mali are not as good as Russia. No amount of name-calling is going to change that fact. So does it really matter if he finishes in 6th, 4th, or 2nd?
Saladin/Arabia [24]

 

[kryat]

Chandragupta/India [14] (17-3) It’s very difficult to downvote now. All are deserving of high ranking, even if I think Japan is too high. Chandra is weaker than Gandhi because he lacks the outright faith bonus.
Gandhi/India [27] (26+1) India is a top contender for RV for several reasons. While the game may won directly by apostles, missionaries are what level the early competition. Very strong missionaries can have all of your neighbors converted before you move on to apostles warfare, and missionaries are more flexible than direct conversions (ie, Jadwiga). Stepwells come early, and can supercharge India’s growth and faith output. Ghandi also gets prime picking from pantheons to focus on whatever strategy the map needs.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31] @Drivingrevilo thank you for the thoughtful response. Sometimes I leave my points to be inferred rather than made explicitly. The reason I brought up Greece’s theater squares were to make the point that Greece (and others) have stronger early cultural abilities, but that didn’t warrant them to be in the top tier. Same with mentioning the other adjacency bonuses. Others have better and more reliable adjacencies that come online earlier, but that didn’t warrant them to be in the top 2 either. The outright faith bonus was meant to allude to pantheons, which Japan gets poorer choosing from than others. It’s not that Japan hinges on a particular pantheon, but Japan has to sift through middle barrel stuff and may miss out on something the map may have favored. To me, Japan is most equivalent to Poland. Several strengths, but not even second best at any one thing.
Mansa Musa/Mali [13]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [24]

 

[bengalryan9]

Every turn their trading range extends, just send a trader, cancel route.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

Chandragupta/India [11] (14-3) I think he is probably a step behind Gandhi in terms of RV (I'll take the early bonus faith, personally) and I don't want to downvote Mali again so soon.
Gandhi/India [27]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [13]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25] (24+1)

last choice of beliefs is pretty bad now that there are several good ones.

Huh? On a small map (4 religions) or a standard map (5 religions), I can still get something I can use even if I'm last to found a religion. The AI *still* takes Warrior Monks and Divine Inspiration even if they don't take it first like they use to, so as Saladin I can still grab something like Jesuit Education or Work Ethic pretty easily. These may not be as strong as Choral Music or Feed the World (which you would likely miss out on), but they're still both positives that you get with no work whatsoever.

As far as overrating their science game, I specifically said that comes after the free prophet/religion in terms of importance. Science does still always have value (you'll need troops and you *will* build up grievances), you will need cartography (I certainly never downvoted Kupe), and it all comes naturally as you spread your religion (which, you know, you have to do to win a RV). Someone said this all takes time to come online... you can't win the game until cartography anyways, and Saladin is likely to get there first of those remaining on the list.

 

[Civ Chemist]

I think at this point a lot of it comes down to personal experience (preference). Another important question is what is more important: consistency or potential very high faith output.
I think out of the remaining civs Mali and Russia are most terrain (and pantheon) dependent. I don't know about you but after the work ethic change I have started multiple games with both civs to get the perfect setup with that belief and a lot of the start were just very disappointing. Either I didn't even spawn near my preferred terrain or it was just a very small desert/tundra, just enough for maybe 2-3 cities. And just because you get +2/3 faith from turn 1/2 it does not guarantee you the pantheon you want. I've had enough games before where I just couldn't get desert folklore/dance of the aurora. A first meet religious city state or early relic and the AI can beat you to that pantheon, especially since they are some of the preferred AI choices. Now with all that said, with the right terrain/map and pantheon it would be very hard to argue they don't deserve top 3.

I would also argue that out of the 2 Russia is less terrain dependent, simply because even if you don't get the right terrain/pantheon you can still count on half price Lavras, which are pretty good even without dance. And with all the great writers you get early on you can get a lot of gold by selling them. +10-12 gold this early can make a big difference.
I'm not downvoting any of the 2, just wanted to give you some food for thought

Chandragupta/India [8] (11-3): Don't necessarily think he is bad, but it was between him an Mali. I also considered downvoting Arabia, but since I haven't played them in a very long time I didn't feel I could correcly assess their strenght. I don't feel like domination and RV go that well toghether. Getting a religion basically means you won't be able to get a good classical era rush going, the AI just gets to crossbows/walls too quickly. And not focusing on science early on also makes later era wars a lot more difficult. So while he still gets the +2 missionary charges, without the extra early faith Ganghi gets it might be difficult to directly eliminate an enemy religions only with them. Now that does not mean it is impossible, but just more difficult and less reliable.
Gandhi/India [27]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [32] (31+1): I would argue that he is the most consitent civ. Half price holy sites (easily spammable) with reliable adjacency even without any natural adjacency or pantheon dependence: 3 holy sites around a government plaza will give you easy +3 adjacency on each (without mountains or woods). And the more districts you build the better they get, espeically since their theater squares are also very cheap. And with those half price districts getting the 40% discount on other districts is not too difficult with some careful techs/civics planning. And finally because he is not dependent on a specific pantheon he can either hope for religious settlement of pick a strong culture pantheon (goddess of festival or god of the open sky), which can help immensly getting to those important early civics faster.
Mansa Musa/Mali [13]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25]

 

[Francel]

Leaving soon so voting an hour early. Thanks.

Chandragupta/India [8]
Gandhi/India [27]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29] (32-3) - see below
Mansa Musa/Mali [14] (13+1) - see below
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25]

Agree completely regarding the role of preference at this point. To me, this includes playstyle, preferred settings, and experience/luck. I don’t build many cities, so I would rather have a few strong holy sites than lots of middling ones. Also, I mostly play pan and 7 seas so cartography is something I think less about.

Anything that reduces the role of RNG is valuable. Mali will usually get the first pantheon as well.

 

[fredrikslicer]

Chandragupta/India [5] 8-3 Since he and Gandi share civ I feel he has to go
Gandhi/India [28] 27+1 Significantly increases the use of missionaries and trade routes
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
Mansa Musa/Mali [14]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25]

 

[Hans Castorp]

Chandragupta/India [2] 5-3 There's not much in it at this point. Chandragupta gets the down vote because extra missionary charges are most useful early in the religious game, before other players get Apostles up and about. Gandhi's LUA gives him enough of a faith boost in the classical era to let you get a missionary wave going early and the timing can make the difference.
Gandhi/India [29] 28+1 As above. Strong faith generation and extra missionary charges for both Indian leaders, but Gandhi has the LUA to get missionaries out a little bit earlier.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [29]
Mansa Musa/Mali [14]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25]

 

[Jewelrunna]

Chandragupta/India [ELIMINATED] (2 - 3): Half of India's kit is tailor-made towards a Religious Victory, half can put you towards Domination. Chandragupta chooses to emphasize the latter. Consequently, he's still more than viable at a Religious Victory, but he can't quite hang with the Big Boys left. Honestly, I feel like there are other Civs that are better than him, but this is still a reasonable spot for him to go at.
Gandhi/India [29]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [30] (29 + 1): My personal top three is Gandhi, Hojo, and Peter in no particular order. Like I've said before, to be good at a Religious Victory, you need three things: getting to a Religion, generating lots of Faith, and being able to spread Religions effectively. Hojo hits all three of these marks. People really are underrating Meiji Restoration here, and it's why Japan is such a potent Civ. It is really, really easy to get +4 or better Holy Sites with just a little bit of planning, and with the card that doubles Faith yields from adjacent Holy Sites, Japan can generate huge amounts of Faith. Speaking of Holy Sites: Japan gets half-cost Holy Sites (or effectively half-cost Holy Sites). This makes Japan quite likely to get first Religion in a game, and it also makes getting their Faith generation online come much faster. The last part of Japan's Religious Victory strengths is, at least on paper, the most inconsistent. Divine Wind does (at least as long as they haven't changed it, which to my knowledge they haven't) apply to Theological Combat. This may seem pretty situational, but from my experience, most of my Theological Combat comes from when I'm trying to establish a Religious foothold in a different continent, getting my Religious units onto the coast. This bonus makes it much easier to get that landfall, and even on your own continent, it is possible to bait Religious units from another player onto the coast. Frankly, I think there's a conversation to be had for placing Gandhi and Hojo closer in point stature than Russia. I agree that Russia is unquestionably top three in the game for a RV, but I don't think they're clear-cut as the best.
Mansa Musa/Mali [14]
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [25]

 

[Dantesedge]

Gandhi/India [29] I won't up or down vote Ghandi because, to be honest, I can't stand playing as India and I've never figured out how to make them work well (it's the only civ I just "don't get"). I've never understood the appeal of Ghandi's leader ability - people seem to love it - or even how to place the Stepwell's to make them effective (Dharma is okay), so clearly I'm not the right person to vote either positively or negatively because I can't form a reasonable argument to why he is good or bad besides "I hate playing him". I'll leave his fate to people who better understand his dynamics because for me to downvote him wouldn't be a fair assessment of his abilities, so instead...
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [30]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11] (14-3) I love Mali. They are fun to play and are extremely strong in the religious game. Removing India from my choice equation (see above for why), I see four very strong civs left... but Mali has a rough start. While districts arent affected by his production hit, the desert you want to start in (so you can easily grab the proper pantheon) might not have the production to fast track what you need (food and faith are not a problem in the first few turns). Once they get going though they are strong, but man that beginning can be rough. I hope they land the #4 slot, but I know it probably doesn't help that I didn't go after Ghandi (see above for why).
Peter/Russia [38]
Saladin/Arabia [26] (25+1) Saladin for #2 (Peter doesn't need my help to win until it's down to him and someone else). I despise the Last Prophet and find it counter productive, but Righteousness of the Faith is an absolutely fantastic ability and the Madrasa is a nice side bonus. As this thread went on, I flip-flopped back and forth between Saladin and Hojo, but Arabia has finally come out on top between the two.

 

[Josephias]

(Taking into account both Dantesedge and Jewelrunna votes)

Gandhi/India [30] (29+1) Had not voted him already, and because of that, I'm inclined to provide him the +1 today. Coinciding with some points above, even if apostles are your main force for RV, missionaries have its uses. Precissely because you need your apostles for religious combat (especially polemists) or specific cases of conversions (specially proselityzers and translators), and because they grow expensive with time, you may want to add some missionaries to the mix to aid you when just brute-force prayer conversion is needed. Having them with two charges more is quite useful. Ghandi gains extra faith per turn, just from its RV enemies, as long as they are not at war, which is also a neat trick. Only thing, India, as others, has little help to gain its Great Prophets, but with two early uniques, they may indeed try that classical golden exodus if they are falling behind.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [30]
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Peter/Russia [35] (38-3) Partly to level the field for a more interesting final battle, and also because I think at this point is maybe overrated. Sure, he is a beast. And he has the unique holy site, wich virtually grants him one of the first Great Prophets. His faith generation can be ridiculously high as well. But that faith generation depends on getting the right panteon (Dance) and working tundra tiles (which, while improved for Russia, are not a preferred terrain option), versus direct faith production bonuses (India, Mali and Arabia when reaching madrassas and T3 Holy Site) , or improved non-panteon depending adjacencies (Japan). I'ts a minnor quibble on a very strong pack, but let's make it the excuse to have some interesting final challenge.
Saladin/Arabia [26]

 

[enKage]

Every turn their trading range extends, just send a trader, cancel route.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

As a person, who actively participates in all elimination threads and board in general, you have suprisingly low knowledge of basic game mechanics.
Maybe it is new to some people, but unilike civ5, you CAN cancel trade routes. It costs 100 / 150 greviances depending of previous denouncing and some turns of war and greviances earlier eras decay very fast.
It may be not beneficial for many civs to declare for trade cancel, but for some in fact is.
Mongolia gets immediate strength boost and has a chance to go hunting for free horses, basically always very efficient.
Cree expand teritory for free while exping Okis to lvl3 in ancient era, very efficient on epic/marathon, situationally efficient on standard speed
and so on

Gandhi/India [30]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31] 30+1 India and Japan are more balanced civs than the rest and Japan is more efficient in religion.
Mansa Musa/Mali [11]
Peter/Russia [35]
Saladin/Arabia [23] 26-3 I don't see Sal's religion game. His bonus is to delay building holy sites while building other things heading for other victories. His bonus gfaith come into play in the moment, when every civ basically is able to generate tions of faith, enough to support RV. Also not a great warmonger to chain golden eras, unlike Gandhi (Varu is enough to chain golden eras) or Japan. Really hard to choose between Sal and Mali atm, but I like mansa more

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Gandhi/India [30] I upvoted India yesterday, and I'd love to tie them up with Japan, but in fairness, I'll spread my votes. The way India plays is they are up there with Russia for a good early blitz. They have reliable early sources of faith via Stepwells and Satyagraha. Their missionaries are 40% more powerful. Once you can build missionaries, do so. RV is so much easier in the early game because 1) there are less cities to convert 2) the cities have lower pop so you don't have to spend as many charges and 3) you want to convert as much before your enemy reaches Theocracy and slots their religious combat bonus card and have the faith economy up and running to build apostles. The extra charges make it easier for India in this critical time period.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [8] (11-3) Fifth place would still be a respectable finish for them. Every civ here deserves to be here. That being said, they're too much RNG-dependent for my taste. It takes a lot of rerolling to get that perfect desert start. And taking Desert Folklore is such a risk, especially with Religious Settlements enticing you with that free settler. Their low production is a liability for proper defense, and while they eventually just "buy anything" it's getting there that's the challenge. Mali is just not consistent enough. It's a boom-or-bust civ. Once everything falls into place and you get your faith and gold economy running, you're pretty much unstoppable, I'll admit. The other four civs here are just more reliable in most games though.
Peter/Russia [36] (35+1) The great thing is you don't even need Dance of the Aurora -- you can snag Earth Goddess instead if you want! Tundra forests are great for breathtaking tiles, but you're also given more freedom than Dance because you can settle more of the map. Non-tundra coasts and mountains can also be great sources of faith.
Saladin/Arabia [23]

 

[monikernemo]

Gandhi/India [27] (30 - 3)
Is Chandragupta and Gandhi's ability in converting civs necessarily weaker than Gandhi? If Chandragupta's gone at this stage, I'm afraid that Gandhi shouldnt be here any longer. In theory I think Gandhi's leader ability to garner faith seems inconsequential - for it to work early on, you require civs to have a religion and scout other civs and not declare war on others. Later on, the amount of faith per turn given is too little. There is a fair amount of RNG that comes with Gandhi's ability.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [9] (8 +1)
In my experiences "desired" Desert starts are indeed less reliable than say what you can achieve with Russia in Tundra or Brazil in Rainforests. I played games with Mansa that I spawned with on one tile of desert and obviously, that's a restart. It could be very well be due to some the design flaws in the game.

Talking about RNG, yes Mali is alot rushable than other civs. I think there are steps that one needs to take to defend yourself from an early rush as Mali. Obviously, one thing that you can do is not exchange capital information and send an early delegation. And at least early on, conserve some bit of the gold for a rainy day instead of greedy plays.

I think the argument that desert does not give Mali the production you need a weak one. While surely Mali suffers some production malus, if you spawn in the desert, deesrt folklore + work ethic is a viable combo. At least Sugubas are half-priced and unlock right at classical era so your faith purchasing abilities goes into overdrive early on.
Peter/Russia [36]
Saladin/Arabia [23]

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This is an elimination thread. Stop the arguing, stop the side bar commentaries and stop the sniping or you will be banned from replying in this thread or any future threads. Vote and explain your vote and knock off all the other crap.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Gandhi/India [24] (27-3) I believe Mansa should go first, but I downvoted him yesterday. So as indicated, Gandhi gets my #4 spot. It's a very reliable strategy to grab a religion, grab a classical era golden age, and then Zerg rush your continent with 7 charge missionaries, which Gandhi can afford because of 'Satyagraha'; and if you've also picked Pilgrimage, then this early rush solidifies your faith income for the rest of the game. However, it's undeniable that he's the only one with no bonus to getting a religion: i.e. Japan and Russia get half-price holy sites, while Arabia gets Last Prophet. And if for any reason Gandhi misses the window of opportunity for his Zerg rush – for example, if an aggressive neighbour invades and forces him to focus on military for 20 to 30 turns – then he is really going to struggle, whereas I feel Japan, Russia, and Arabia (and even Mali) only grow in strength as the game progresses. Small differences, I know, but we have to downvote someone.
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [9]
Peter/Russia [37] (36+1) Voting for anyone else at this stage is just prolonging the thread. Half-price holy sites, free faith from tiles, free culture from GWAMs, consistent access to early pantheon, amazing Aurora/Work Ethic combination, and probably the most quietly brilliant bonus in the entire game: extra tiles upon founding a city. This last one in particular counteracts the so-called 'tundra problems' that Russia faces: 9 times out of 10 your capital will have instant access to strong tiles in the second and third rings while other civs are forced to rely on the first ring only.
Saladin/Arabia [23]

 

[CrabHelmet]

Gandhi/India [24]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [6] (9-3) The fact Mali lasted longer than Chandragupta is super dumb. Gandhi and Chandragupta are so barely differentiated in respect of their ability to achieve RV that the idea they don't go out one after the other is daft. Mind you, we had the exact same thing with Pericles and Gorgo, who for some reason are separated by 10 Civs or so for ??? reasons, so, whatever. People just like eliminating the fractionally worse alt leader early for some reason. It's even worse for Chandragupta because while Pericles is definitely slightly less good than Gorgo because they get the same thing (Culture) but Gorgo's is more frontloaded and Pericles more backloaded, Chandragupta actually has some advantages Gandhi doesn't. The movement bonus applies to Religious Units too and you can paper a whole continent in that time, just extremely fast.

I realise this isn't really about Mali but I've said all I have to say on Mali really. All I will say to @lotrmith is that no, an early war with Deity AI is still very common and the bonuses you describe don't overcome the inherent force disparity that makes the AI see you as a good target - especially if you're Mali because you don't have the production for early units.

Peter/Russia [38] (37+1) I mean he's very clearly the best. Fast Culture for Theology, early Faith for reliable Pantheon, situated for a great Faith Pantheon, cheap Holy Sites, extra Faith, you name the advantage, Peter has it. Literally only missing Religious combat bonuses (and I guess Cossacks is maybe a little late for EotE). Who cares if Saladin gets the last Prophet? Peter gets the first. Who cares if Gandhi gets extra missionary spread? Peter can have more missionaries than anyone else, easy. Who cares about Mali's Desert bonus? Not Peter, because Tundra > Desert. Just categorically the best and anything else is dragging it out.
Saladin/Arabia [23]

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Gandhi/India [24]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [3=6-3] Shouldn't be here.
Peter/Russia [39=38+1] Among the 5 remaining Civs, only this one is on my list of top-5 RV Civs.
Saladin/Arabia [23]

 

[lotrmith]

Gandhi/India [24]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [4] 3 + 1 Survive 1 more vote.
Peter/Russia [36] 39 - 3 Will win but should not be a runaway.
Saladin/Arabia [23]

@CrabHelmet Mali often has *better production than Peter* despite the 30% penalty (which again only applies to units and buildings, not districts and projects) because a pop 4 city works more tiles than a pop 2 city.
If early Deity war is such a problem (it's not really, see Diplomacy strategies), Canada should have made top 10... since everyone else except Arabia has to sacrifice unit production for Holy Sites and, likely, prayers.

@Kmart_Elvis Dance is the only pantheon choice for Russia... Without it your holy sites will suck and Earth Goddess, as Russia, is a trap to working even more bad Tundra tiles. 1 food tundra tiles are BAD BAD BAD becuase they stifle your growth so hard. It takes I believe 12 turns to get to pop 2 and another 20+ to get to pop 3 if you're working tundra that doesn't have a lucky food resource.


I'm just glad enough people see beyond the malus to get Mali into top 5 where it belongs!


Russia will win but I think it should be a lot closer. Somehow people think Russia can do everything for free? "Free GWAMs" mean nothing without a theater square with an amphitheater to house them, and that costs gold to maintain and population to support the district. Hell even the lavra spam plus buildings costs money. The trade routes with "free culture and science " likewise require the same opportunity cost of a district slot plus a hard built market/lighthouse and hard built trader. Russia also, again, despite the bonus tiles (which only extend to the 2nd ring, not the 3rd) still has to work the poor tundra to secure their pantheon and requires intervention by the player to work better food tiles once the pantheon is secure. They're strong, no question, but they're not without their own challenges.

 

[King William I]

Gandhi/India [24]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [31]
Mansa Musa/Mali [4] - 3 = 1

Great for RV as evidenced by the final five. But getting the best of their faith game involves feeding into their true strength. Gold. So simply due to them being better at diplo victory then religious, they get my downvote

Peter/Russia [36]
Saladin/Arabia [23] + 1 = 24

I think people seem to think a garunteed religion is their only bonus for RV games. How about a university that's available an era earlier and turns your campus adjacensies into faith. Or super cheap worship buildings that increase a city's faith rate. Or how they get bonuses from spreading religion into foreign civs so you don't suffer as much by going full religion. The Arabs won't win, but they should get top 3

 

[Leucarum]

Gandhi/India [24]
Hojo Tokimune/Japan [28] (31-3) I haven't downvoted Hojo yet and I think that Japan, India, Mali and Arabia are similar in terms of religious victory strength.
Mansa Musa/Mali [1]
Peter/Russia [37] (36+1) Apologies, but I kind of feel like it should be a runaway. Normally at this stage of an elimination thread I feel like there is one civ I really don't think belongs so I have an easy time downvoting one, and struggle to work out who to upvote. This time its the opposite. Peter's cheap Lavras, ability to easily swipe the first prophet, and ability to use many pantheoms very effectively, make him the Gran Colombia of Religious Victory. I don't dislike the others but they seem on a similar power level to one another relative to Peter so I'll spread my downvotes around a bit.
Saladin/Arabia [24]

Edit: Added in previous vote