1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Religious Victory is too difficult and unrewarding

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by labellavienna, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. aguliondew

    aguliondew Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    447
    Location:
    Tennessee
    I find it strange religious victories have always been my fastest. Just remember to use both apostle and missionary to save yourselves alot of faith. Use your apostle to turn a city into non nonreligious city then use missionaries to covert it the rest of the way. Always use missionaries on cities without religion. Save your apostles last charge to combat other religious units. Faith and production are the most important things earthen goddess is the best pantheon and will give you tons of faith.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  2. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Igloovik
    Oh, I bet getting a GA and Exodus of the Evangelists is the big difference.
     
  3. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS King

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2008
    Messages:
    776
    If you're serious about a religious victory, you're going to get Moksha. Knowing how to use him as effectively as possible makes sense.

    His obviously wanted ability is the one that gives two promotions for apostles. Duh. But due to how fast apostles move, I find putting him on a religious frontline just to use this ability to cut down on travel time unnecessary. Instead, he works best when settled on a high production town along a pagan's border. Basically, have a missionary convert as soon as you found the city, move Moksha in and get a holy site up ASAP. Once that holy site gets up, you'll be putting out enough pressure to convert pagans fairly quickly and you did it for free. By developing and growing this city, you'll establish a foothold to effortlessly convert lots of pagans.

    Also, the city should be high production to take advantage of Moksha's "citadel of god" ability -- 25% of production cost from finishing a building is given as faith. A monument is 60 production so you get 15 faith for a monument and a market is 120 production so 30 faith (to give an idea of scale). That's not a lot of faith, but it's something to consider when moving him between a low production or high production city that are next to each other.

    Grand Inquistor usually works best when near pagan civs because other civs will send plenty of missionaries and whatnot to convert them. If you're lucky, they'll pass through your territory. Laying on hands will work on any border city. It doesn't matter what their religion is. Lastly, placing Moksha in a border city with a temple could allow double promoted monks. More on monks in my next rant. :p

    A difficult but very satisfying strategy to pull off is warrior monks. There's so many other cool things to choose but here's how to do them right (just ignore ALL the other oppourtunity costs -- this is too situational a strat to be relied upon. But here's how you can do them right, in no particular order:

    Get a lot of faith going. Three holy sites, all with temples, and at least one religious CS with 6 envoys (or 2 CSs with 3) should be plenty.

    Get theocracy. Duh.

    If it pops up in the world congress, put every single last envoy you have into cheaper units purchased with faith. If combined with theocracy, you get a massive discount when purchasing them.

    Get Moksha. Get him the 2 promotions for warrior monks title. Buy monks and immediately give all your newly trained monks shadow strike and use them as a slow, flanking mob a la Greek hoplites. Or give them all twlight veil and have monks "snipe" the flanks with their invisibility. For the second promotion, give them disciples. Go declaring war and use your monks to deliver the killing blows to enemy units. This can quickly convert even the most ardent believers. For added fun effect, take the Crusade or Defender of the Faith Enhancer belief to add some synergy.

    If pulled off correctly, you can be forefully converting one rival by war and another one or two by your normal religious game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2019
    Pure24, nzcamel and glider1 like this.
  4. Civ Chemist

    Civ Chemist Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2019
    Messages:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Some very good advice already. Here is how I usually play:
    • Early culture is almost as important as faith, so I always go for choral music. This allows me to ignore theater squares and only focus on holy sites and a few campuses and commercial hubs early on. The early culture helps you unlock governor titles and reach theocracy a lot faster.
    • My second belief is usually holy order (for cheaper religious units) or missionary zeal (very strong to reach the enemy faster and allows you to easily hunt down and kill enemy units)
    • Pilgrimage and mosques are my remaining beliefs
    • If you have an isolated neighbor that has not founded a religion you can send out a few missionaries to convert him early on, othewise I would save up my faith until I reach a medieval golden age (pick exodus of the evangelist). Getting this golden age is my main focus. By the time you reach the medieval era you probably have already gotten Moksha's patron saint promotion (1-2 promotions for Magnus and 4 for Moksha).
    • Then spend all your saved up faith on double promoted 5-6 charge Apostles. The 3 most powerful promotions are debater, prolesytizer and translator. Send out groups of 4-5 apostles (ideally at least 1 apostle with debater) + guru and convert cities with holy sites first. Don't use the last charge on your apostle but rather use them for theological combat. Especially for civs that have founded a religion, convert every single city that has a holy site.
    Theological combat: if you are having problems in this department here are some ways you can increase it:
    • Debater promotion (+20 CS)
    • Beeline Reformed church to unlock theocracy (+5 CS) and the Religious Orders policy (+5 CS)
    • Flanking: For each friendly unit adjacency to your enemy you get +2 CS when attacking
    • Each level of higher diplomatic visibility gives you an additional +3 CS. Some ways to increase it:
      • Sending a delegation, but not accepting it
      • Having an active trade route with that civ
      • Researching printing before the enemy
      • Using a spy to do the listening post mission (higher diplomatic visibility only during mission)
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  5. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    3,013
    Location:
    Igloovik
    LOL people have mentioned every aspect of Moksha promotions except my favorite: Laying On Of Hands. I stick him on the front line in a town that may not even have a Holy Site. He heals apostles like nobody's business.

    That's really cool advice about the Warrior monks (which I have not tried).
     
  6. Arraz

    Arraz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2019
    Messages:
    68
    Gender:
    Male
    Here are two things that I m confused about.

    I had once tried to pull off the religious pressure strat and it failed miserably . Even with Jerusalem suzerainty, moshka AND spamming Holy sites projects, the religious pressure coming from the city was ridiculously negligible. I could barely convert 2pop cities (After lots of turns). From then on, I stopped seeing religious pressure as anything more than negligible.

    If you know more than I do on the subject, I'd really like to read that.

    Then there are the monks. If a monk kills a unit, does it work like a theological combat won (and convert lots of citizen?)???
    I really wonder about that one as I ve never seen a monk be anything more than an inconvenience and it might be a surprising use of it.
     
  7. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,073
    I actually think RV is the easiest against the AI. Just go to way and kill their religious units, then spam yours when they agree to peace and it's safe. But it isn't that fun... I spend so much time moving around missionaries around the world, boring unit micro. Same reason I almost never do Domination Victory.

    It's the hardest against people, becuase the same strategy.
     
  8. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
    245
    Gender:
    Male
    I will also add that their is a religious emergency if you convert an opponent's holy city. In my experience, having that activate is always a good thing - the AI will struggle to convert the city back if you pay any attention at all, and when you win it puts out a TON of religious pressure.

    IIRC, it doesn't even take a full 30 turns to win... I think it takes 16 max.
     
  9. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    160
    If your immediate neighbor founds a religion before you, conquer them and found yours in their holy city. Another fun combo is Inca and Earth Goddess, because all Mountains are Breathtaking.
     
  10. Tarry

    Tarry Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Gender:
    Male
    You need a bunch of faith - that's your primary win condition. More faith lets you do more things.
    Every city needs a holy site with the best adjacency bonus, and that holy site needs a shrine and temple. Once it's got those build it up so it has more production. Run Holy Site projects in those cities. More production means the projects tun faster and so you are producing more faith. For a long time I avoided Holy Site projects, now I realise just how good they are. They produce a ton a faith and the great prophet points convert into faith.

    The more cities you have, the more holy sites you have, the more faith you generate. That's a pretty simple straight line correlation between those things. A war against a nearby civilization (or non-religious city state) can get you more cities which you can use to build faith. Your war uses troops built by gold/production and it doesn't really take away from your faith income (well, ok, fewer holy site projects but you see what I mean). Sometimes it is better and easier to conquer a neighbouring civilization especially if it is sending out apostles/missionaries at you than to fight it religiously. Once you wipe that civilization out and absorb it's cities those cities are producing faith that you can use immediately. The faith from hindu cities is just like the faith from catholic cities and just like the faith from lion cities. You can convert those heretic-cities at your leisure.

    Religious city states all give great bonus' and you should aim to get suzerenity over them.
    All other city states that you don't want to keep for suzerenity and their bonus' should be though of as excellent war zones ripe for future capture.

    Now, offensive religious war:
    If a civilization has NOT founded a religion, ignore it. That civilization CANNOT win a religious victory and is no threat to you. Only civilizations that found a religion can win a religious war. It can be converted at your leisure with a swarm of late bought missionaries once all the religious enemies are destroyed. Any time/faith-production you spend mid-game on that civilization is wasted time, because it gives the other religious civ's more time to do things. If another religious civ is converting that non-religious civ, that's great, ignore them, let them get on with it, they are using up missionaries and apostle's and making their future ones more expensive.

    Now attacking a religious civ: The best way to convert them is to kill their religious units in their territory. It gives negative their religion and positive your religion to multiple nearby cities all at once. So you want to think of having multiple teams of (2-3 apostles + 1 guru) attacking - at least one of those apostles in each team should be a debater. These should all gang up on one unit at a time and kill it. You want to make sure you have flanking support and diplomatic bonus' to increase your religious strength as much as possible (+government+policy card). The guru is there to heal up the apostles and provide flanking so that the team does not need to run away back home to heal up at a holy site. Having your apostles die in their territory is very bad and undoes lots of the work you have done, don't let it happen, run away or get healed from the guru.

    Converting their cities via charges: Your attack apostles use up all except their last charge to help convert cities, remember that wounded apostles do less so healing up with the guru is good. Try to use the charges in the best way by removing 75% first and stuff like that. Follow up waves of missionaries swarming individual cities is also good. But here's the important thing to remember: Only cities with holy sites can produce religious units, so focus your city conversion efforts first on cities with holy sites. A city with your religion produces faith units of your religion and those unit's even though they belong to the other civ can't fight yours.
    Once you have gotten all their religious units dead and all their holy site cities converted move your attack teams on to the next civ. Send a missionary swarm and convert all the cities with religions but no holy sites - keep a watch every 5 turns or so until this is completed to check and see if they begin building holy sites in cities that could generate new religious units. Sometimes keeping back an attack team makes sense, especially if you need to replace the guru for that team and the distance to get there is becoming onerous. A city that doesn't have a religion or holy site can generally be ignored a civ is converted once half it's cities follow yours.

    Defensive religious war. If you get attacked by someone's religious units from the west while your religious army is all to the east, declare normal war and kill their religious units with your military units and sit your military at home. Now you have time to build more military and/or religious units.10-20 turns later go for peace and then denounce them asap. You've killed the cheep stuff, replacing them is more expensive for your opponent. You've bough yourself some time to prepare as they normally will run away with religious units and won't come back while you are at war. In that time you should be able to produce an apostle and declare an inquisition and build a bunch of cheap inquisitors who will be ready to pounce on the opponents religious units when they return.
     
  11. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Combine these three and don't use up your apostles last charge and you'll be fine :)
     
  12. montalaar

    montalaar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    58
    i won 20+ religion victories. not saying it makes me brilliant expert, actually, i think religion victories are most boring of all. and do not require sophisticated knowlege. but some is needed. my few advices are these:
    1. good civ - gitarja, peter, some few more;
    2. early source of faith generation, even not too low is good - tundras for peter, some natural wonder. maybe huge amounts of stone for stone circles, early relic.

    now not requirements, but strategical things:
    1. never spend faith on missionaries or gurus, only apostles;
    2. yerevan changes game - explore; if find it buy its units if some other civ wants to conquer it and just surround city with your units to keep it safe, AI is unbelievebly stupid still;
    3. moksha in your central faith city;
    4. hagia sofia;
    now, actual gameplay with religion - never spend apostle to the end charge, if you wont waste faith on missionaries, you will get good army of apostles. on high difficulties AI has so many missionaries or apostles, you need every apostle you can get to win faith battles, what in turn change opponent cities to your religion, strategically align them with holy sites if you can and they will never die. try to have promotion on faith strenght in faith battles. have some apostles with promotion to wipe other faith in city. and just slowly walk over. i play only pangea almost always or continents. religion victory is only matter of time with moksha and faith source. very boring and tedious games. i never play these victories anymore, boring beyond belief.
     
  13. Bitterman

    Bitterman Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2018
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Granada, Spain
    I'm going to use this thread and ask something has been bugguing me since the very begining.

    Why is so hard to convert city-states compared to normal civ cities? Everytime I happen to have a city state near my border and I'm playing a religious game I find it takes a LOT of charges from missionaries to convert them, sometimes not even with six charges (that is, two missionaries completely devoted to that) can I convert those cities, even they are within my own territory and (apparently) with no or little exterior religious pressure.
     
  14. oSiyeza

    oSiyeza Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Messages:
    139
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Spain
    To me RV, is pulled back by design choices. That make it boring and tedious. To me is apparent that no care or time was put in the religious game at all.

    Why RU, can not heal on foreign religous sites of the same religion?. Historically makes no sense and ingame makes healing units a tedious chore. This is combined with a RU that can heal other units with charges. But as a solution, is more annoying than anything. Healing on foreigh holy sites, would be an interesting mechanic. On the other hand, a unit that just heals surrounding RU over time (like other units do) would also work. However, the current mechanic does not. Is boring, tedious, and annoying. And i cannot oversell how much removes for me the fun of the religious game.

    Auto religious lens is terrible and eye hurting depending on the color of the religion. My screen had turned completely white in a game, and the only reason i could keep playing was that i found a mod that somewhat addresed the issue. Though does not work flawlessly.

    RU should be able to support land combat, giving other units a bonus. So there is a reason to have them around outside of religious combat.

    Religious combat "magic animations" are for me out of place. A shorter animation with no lightning effects would be better in my opinion.

    More border control is needed. I always defended splitting the open border feature into Land, Sea, and non military (granting pass for RU, trade routes, explorers, engineers, settlers, workers and other units). And additionally, a way to restrict borders for RU should be available for theocratic goverments or in policies.

    Great theologians should be added to the game. As a more powerful, not expendable religious unit. This does not only make sense historically and in relation with other game systems, but will also make the RG much more interesting.

    I think the charges system could be somewhat aliviated by a mecanic that allow a unit to medidate in a friendly holy site, basically expending faith to recharge RU, reducing the need to spam more units and have to bring them back to the place where u want them. Also, meditation could be a mechanic, leaving RU, vulnerable to attacks for some turns.

    I miss an option to declare a state religion, that could give depth to the game, as you could have a majority religion, and an official religion. Both affecting your relationships with the world. Also diplomacy could have an option to persuade other civs to declare an official religion.

    More ways to increase religious influence outside combar are needed. And some interaction with other game systems such as spies. Thus an spy could fabricate an scandal against a religious leader in a city, decreasing religious influence. Taking a foreign city by force could grant the possibility of doing a religious purge with diplomatic repercussions...

    More macro decission elements are needed, for example religious policies, that could grant not only bonus or advantages, but also habilities with drawbacks related to your playstile. For example, a holy war card could neglect grievances from civs following your religion, and produce more grievances for other civs. Religious buildings in gob plaza, a expanded belief tree to expand in your ideologies ... And so on and on.

    An simple system to create your own religion, with your own icon, and description.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,216
    disagree. RV is about speed and missionaries are great early scouts and converters. They are much cheaper than apostles and spread to pagans the same. At one charge left they are very useful for blocking, flanking and support as well as scouting and general visibility. If I wait for apostles that city will be 5 pop but if I convert is when it is 1-2 pop it just makes more sense. Speed is what it is all about. I have converted an Arabian neighbour before they got religion going before with missionaries.
    I never noticed a difference but because you have I will look into it for you.
    does not help your situation but it used to be much worse. I want to never use that lens again but accidentally click and activate sometimes.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  16. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages:
    412
    Gender:
    Male
    Missionaries are excellent for quick conversions of new cities you have founded. Gurus are essential for keeping your debating teams in good nick.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,216
    I used em a bit but found they were a nice to have rather than vital. It does not hurt to send one along I guess but things like removing 75% of a religion (proselytizer) take effect whether damaged or not which lessens the use of a Guru. Having 1 charge missionaries for flank and sacrifice also help and as long as I am getting good odds with my debators even if they are a bit knocked about they do their job.

    I agree that if you have left conversion late they can be more useful, so to me Guru's are useful when running a bit slower.
    TBH the I always seem to overestimate the competition and when you get there converting their cities is just not difficult unless you have not managed your debating +'s well enough and are outclassed.
     
  18. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,110
    Location:
    Canada
    Anyone have it where you've converted all the remaining civs (in this case 3/3) and the game doesn't end? Playing on Switch.
     
  19. enKage

    enKage Follower of Zoamelgustar

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,406
    Location:
    Łódź, PL
    Consider Meenekshi temple - 2 free gurus and 30% discount on gurus maybe is not so strong, but +5 combat near gurus and +1 move on top on other bonuses allow to one hit kill of enemy apostles.
    maybe I am weird but this is my musthave wonder when I decide for RV
     
  20. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2018
    Messages:
    245
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think I've ever built it. AI seems to love it.
     
    Eurritz likes this.

Share This Page