Religious victory?
- Thread starter AnotherPacifist
- Start date
embryodead
Caliph
I uploaded the basic implementation of Relic hunt to SVN, along with 12 unique relics.
Still missing:
- missionary pick-up feature
- steal relic spy mission
- respawn after disband
Still missing:
- missionary pick-up feature
- steal relic spy mission
- respawn after disband
embryodead
Caliph
No, not yet, it all takes a while. I'll finish relics first, then work on victory conditions.
Now that there's a fixed number of relics on the map, do you think these could be added to UHVs as well? There's just 1-2 civs I have in mind:
- KoJ: get 3-4 relics (instead of spice/silk hunt, although most liked that condition, or saint, since having both saint+relics is too close to URV, and it's too easy anyway with all the bonuses)
- Ottomans: gather all islamic relics (since they are the ones who did it, historically)
Now that there's a fixed number of relics on the map, do you think these could be added to UHVs as well? There's just 1-2 civs I have in mind:
- KoJ: get 3-4 relics (instead of spice/silk hunt, although most liked that condition, or saint, since having both saint+relics is too close to URV, and it's too easy anyway with all the bonuses)
- Ottomans: gather all islamic relics (since they are the ones who did it, historically)
Tigranes
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Will you at some point consider "Royal Saint" idea (100 piety vs 90 now)?
Unless I am wrong, no single king of Jerusalem was ever canonized, so looks like we currently have 2 "wanted but never did" conditions -- spices (never materialized trade with India/Prester John) and Sainthood. It would be logical to replace Sainthood, since Crusaders did recover a number of Relics (although not exactly those that you have created). So, there -- some relevant historical UV for Crusader kingdom with a religious flavor.
Ottomans also make sense, to indicate their historical role of becoming a champion for Islam and idea of caliphate. But which current UHV are you willing to sacrifice?
Unless I am wrong, no single king of Jerusalem was ever canonized, so looks like we currently have 2 "wanted but never did" conditions -- spices (never materialized trade with India/Prester John) and Sainthood. It would be logical to replace Sainthood, since Crusaders did recover a number of Relics (although not exactly those that you have created). So, there -- some relevant historical UV for Crusader kingdom with a religious flavor.
Ottomans also make sense, to indicate their historical role of becoming a champion for Islam and idea of caliphate. But which current UHV are you willing to sacrifice?
embryodead
Caliph
Royal Saint could be done, but the only real effect will be that the Gujarati UHV will become more difficult (assuming KoJ gets switched to relic UHV).
With Ottomans the problem is that yeah, all the current UHVs are good.
With Ottomans the problem is that yeah, all the current UHVs are good.
Tigranes
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Gujarat can still be 90 (simply Saint 
), I think of URVs when I talk about Royal Saint level... But if you say there is no way to avoid Great Prophet (Saint) generation exploit via Piety points -- then there is no point in creating "Sid" difficulty for Piety...
), I think of URVs when I talk about Royal Saint level... But if you say there is no way to avoid Great Prophet (Saint) generation exploit via Piety points -- then there is no point in creating "Sid" difficulty for Piety...
... Currently it is possible to delete the Relic -- Relics don't burn! If one will be able unsettle a Relic with Missionary -- will it consume Missionary? Relic's art suggests -- yes
embryodead
Caliph
Deleting the relic will make it respawn randomly elsewhere after some time.
Yeah, the Missionary will be consumed on use.
I was also thinking about the possibility of relics being tradeable in diplomacy screen (I could use Afforess' unit trade code for this), since it happened multiple times. You could trade an Islamic relic for a Christian one, or gift a useless relic for attitude boost.
Yeah, the Missionary will be consumed on use.
I was also thinking about the possibility of relics being tradeable in diplomacy screen (I could use Afforess' unit trade code for this), since it happened multiple times. You could trade an Islamic relic for a Christian one, or gift a useless relic for attitude boost.
I wouldn't replace the gather spices, incence and silk UHV, since it is one the best ones in the mod. It also represents some of the reason and goals that the crusaders actually had there really well. When we have a relic hunt in URV, why would we have one in normal UHVs as well?
Tigranes
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I guess edead just wants to integrate Relics with the rest of the fabric of this mod, and provide Relics with historical significance, not just religious, which I support. Simply all the UHVs were tuned so neatly -- it's really hard to replace any
. And yes, spices should stay for sure. Among other things it forces Catholic human player to attack Orthodox Constantinople for silks...@edead: Do you think Relic could get 2
? If Missioner handles it -- it seems logical that they move together with the same speed. Relic trade is awesome -- even among same religion (did happen very often, as well as Relic theft). IIRC city of Bari sent a special "commando" group to recover the bones of St. Nicolas 
-- so spy or assassin unsettling Relic is also historical. By the way, what is the most celebrated Relic in Poland ?Also, what will happen if the player converts? I mean you own Jerusalem as a Catholic, you settle True Cross, you convert to Sunni, and now you can additionally settle Sword of Ali!
Tigranes
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We can require Ottomans to settle 4 relics in Istanbul by 1465 (Topkapi palace foundation year) -- and kill 2 birds with one stone.
P.S. Never mind, it's unrealistic, especially on Caliph. Byzantium is just way too powerful with those Marksman... Don't you think Ottomans could use few Ghazi units at the start, even though it's another civ's UU?
embryodead
Caliph
SVN updates:
- missionaries can load relics now
- changing state religion ejects invalid relics from cities (thanks for pointing that out)
- destroyed relics can reappear in indy/rebel city later
- for testing, there's a debug screen (CTRL-N); it only works in debug(cheat) mode and currently shows the locations of all relics
Yeah, I'd like to integrate the relics into the game, but without changing much.
- I think that saint UHV of KoJ can be replaced because that objective is very easy; I promise not to touch the silks et al UHV
- The idea to combine Ottoman UHVs is nice, although I also had the feeling that getting that many Islamic relics that early is going to be a nightmare considering they'll most likely be in Egypt, Iraq etc.; I'd rather not give civs other civ's UU - bad precedent. The term Ghazi is actually quite universal, as troops referred to as Ghazi existed much earlier and were used by most civs from Abbasids to Ghaznavids. They were particularly important in Anatolia, which is why they ended up as Rum's UU.
I think Relics should have just 1 move. After all the dude is pulling a heavy cart with a reliquary. The case of stealing a relic will be handled by teleporting spies (i.e. the relic should appear in the same city the spy returned to, or was supposed to return).
- missionaries can load relics now
- changing state religion ejects invalid relics from cities (thanks for pointing that out)
- destroyed relics can reappear in indy/rebel city later
- for testing, there's a debug screen (CTRL-N); it only works in debug(cheat) mode and currently shows the locations of all relics
Yeah, I'd like to integrate the relics into the game, but without changing much.
- I think that saint UHV of KoJ can be replaced because that objective is very easy; I promise not to touch the silks et al UHV
- The idea to combine Ottoman UHVs is nice, although I also had the feeling that getting that many Islamic relics that early is going to be a nightmare considering they'll most likely be in Egypt, Iraq etc.; I'd rather not give civs other civ's UU - bad precedent. The term Ghazi is actually quite universal, as troops referred to as Ghazi existed much earlier and were used by most civs from Abbasids to Ghaznavids. They were particularly important in Anatolia, which is why they ended up as Rum's UU.
I think Relics should have just 1 move. After all the dude is pulling a heavy cart with a reliquary. The case of stealing a relic will be handled by teleporting spies (i.e. the relic should appear in the same city the spy returned to, or was supposed to return).
Tigranes
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I just playtested possible UHV with Ottomans -- it's unrealistic even if you know where Relics are. When you don't know -- it's simply impossible that early, so I don't know... Ottoman Tech UHV is really nice one, and I would never change it... Perhaps ... settle relic in every province from 3 UHV? The cool thing about Ottomans is that they indeed acquired Sacred Trust -- almost all the important relics of Islam....
While we are on this -- I dare to suggest spawning Gallipoli in Thrace and handing it to Ottomans via event circa 1354. I know that it is not exactly on our map and you don't like cities in Thrace except Adrianople but:
1. AI and human Ottomans HAVE to conquer Constantinople from Asia, which is inaccurate. To hint towards the Europe -- the city could have a river from the Asian side and no river from European side, making attack from that side easier.
2. Thrace could use one more city. I mean Adrianople looks very lonely.A little fish could help Gallipoli.
3. Gallipoli plays important symbolic role for Ottomans. It was their first possession in Europe, marking the new era, and much more later during the WWI helped to mark another new era for Turkey. Without Galipolli 34 year old Lt.-Col Kemal would never become Ataturk...
4. Finally it would help Ottoman player in general. Currently the first UHV is very very hard on Caliph...
While we are on this -- I dare to suggest spawning Gallipoli in Thrace and handing it to Ottomans via event circa 1354. I know that it is not exactly on our map and you don't like cities in Thrace except Adrianople but:
1. AI and human Ottomans HAVE to conquer Constantinople from Asia, which is inaccurate. To hint towards the Europe -- the city could have a river from the Asian side and no river from European side, making attack from that side easier.
2. Thrace could use one more city. I mean Adrianople looks very lonely.A little fish could help Gallipoli.
3. Gallipoli plays important symbolic role for Ottomans. It was their first possession in Europe, marking the new era, and much more later during the WWI helped to mark another new era for Turkey. Without Galipolli 34 year old Lt.-Col Kemal would never become Ataturk...
4. Finally it would help Ottoman player in general. Currently the first UHV is very very hard on Caliph...
Tigranes
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embryodead
Caliph
What revision is this? 173 or earlier? Because I fixed this issue in rev. 173 this morning.
embryodead
Caliph
SVN: another relic respawn fix, this should fix the multiple relics issue for good.
It seems I've come late to the party 
Anyway, having been to Topkapi several times, I can say for sure that not all the relics were brought at once, when it was completed. So its definitely the case that you could have a UHV following that, but set it to be completed in 1600, (1595 was when the Holy Banner was eventually captured by Mehmed III and displayed in Topkapi.
A UHV could be something like have x amount of relics in Istanbul and complete the Topkapi Palace.
Here is a list of more relics placed in Topkapi, as there are sure quite a few of them, and definetly more could be added!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Relics
Perhaps you could even add to the Topkapi power to give as well perhaps 2 extra gold and culture for each relic placed in the city.
Also the "Head of John the Baptist" relic is nowdays in Damascus in the Ummayad Mosque. In fact in 2001 I believe, Pope John II went to visit it. Shouldn't it be a Muslim relic since they covet it just as much. I mean, the problem with your relic list, is that some relics can be used for both Muslims and Christians. Also it would be interesting if you made more relics, but had them religion specific, for example only Orthodox or only Shi'ite relics. That would be interesting.
Also any thought about Hindu/Buddhist relics? Perhaps the tooth of the Buddha. Here is some information for Buddhist Relics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śarīra
Although I couldn't find much information on Hindu relics....
Also I agree that relics should be slow and easy to capture by enemies, such as spy's. Although I would doubt the historical accuracy of any spies, or mercenaries ever capturing relics.... but nonetheless it would be super cool!
Anyway, having been to Topkapi several times, I can say for sure that not all the relics were brought at once, when it was completed. So its definitely the case that you could have a UHV following that, but set it to be completed in 1600, (1595 was when the Holy Banner was eventually captured by Mehmed III and displayed in Topkapi.
A UHV could be something like have x amount of relics in Istanbul and complete the Topkapi Palace.
Here is a list of more relics placed in Topkapi, as there are sure quite a few of them, and definetly more could be added!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Relics
Perhaps you could even add to the Topkapi power to give as well perhaps 2 extra gold and culture for each relic placed in the city.
Also the "Head of John the Baptist" relic is nowdays in Damascus in the Ummayad Mosque. In fact in 2001 I believe, Pope John II went to visit it. Shouldn't it be a Muslim relic since they covet it just as much. I mean, the problem with your relic list, is that some relics can be used for both Muslims and Christians. Also it would be interesting if you made more relics, but had them religion specific, for example only Orthodox or only Shi'ite relics. That would be interesting.
Also any thought about Hindu/Buddhist relics? Perhaps the tooth of the Buddha. Here is some information for Buddhist Relics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śarīra
Although I couldn't find much information on Hindu relics....
Also I agree that relics should be slow and easy to capture by enemies, such as spy's. Although I would doubt the historical accuracy of any spies, or mercenaries ever capturing relics.... but nonetheless it would be super cool!
Tigranes
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The thing is we only have 3 UHVs and they all are very good ones for Ottomans currently. Become an Emperor by 1450 is the defining milestone in Ottoman history, no Relic can compare with the main prize -- Constantinople itself -- so if we set the date for the first UHV somewhere 1600 -- it would be too late. The only thing that comes to my mind -- move Topkapi palace to Flintlock and require -- build Topkapi palace and "place" 5 relics there. This way Ottomans still have to be the first (or among the first) to discover Flintlock -- otherwise AI will build Topkapi palace before you...
