Religons have different traits? What do you think?

[Ryry]

Reading through the thread where Rhye proposed religious sects I got an idea:

While I understand the reasons to do it, it kind of bugged me that every religion in CIV4 is basically treated the same. Whether your state religion is Taoism or Islam, you get the same benefits.

Granted, as we all know, in Rhye's Christianity is often advantagous because all the other Euro civs have it..... but that is not my point. Clearly religion has some effect on culture, so the religion you pick should have some effect on your CiV.

Of course this would create a lot of controversy and if I was a game developer I would be vary wary. For example (just to illustrate how controversial it could be): Islamic civs could get some kind of war bonus (less war weariness, or extra experience for units, or whatever) while Taoist civs could get some peace bonus while Jewish civs could get an economy bonus....etc...

Now I just mention those examples to illustrate the minefield you are stepping in..... but if done carefully it might be possible to not offend everyone

I propose something like this (just to start the conversation):
Christianity
Good points: Crusade! Something militaristic, such as Knights get some sort of attack bonus, and perhaps less war weariness when at war with non-Christian civs.
Negatives: Reduced science production during the Medieval age? Or reduced wealth?

Islam
Good points: Jihad! Something militaristic. Perhaps units can spread religion like missionaries only with less chance of success? And it will consume the unit?
Negatives: I am not sure.... ideas?

Judism
Good points: Added stability for small civs? Or can spread regardless of Theocracy?
Negatives: Ideas?

you get the idea...........

Ryry

PS: I am by NO MEANS an expert of world religions, but I do think something like this would add more "flavor" and variation to BtS!

 

[dionysos2048]

I'd rather give a science boost for Islam rather than a military one, especially for the medieval period, as Muslim civs were the more advanced then.
I'm really tired of Islam being described as a pro war religion. I think historically if any religion should be discribed as such it should be Christianism.

 

[Corm]

I'd rather give a science boost for Islam rather than a military one, especially for the medieval period, as Muslim civs were the more advanced then.
I'm really tired of Islam being described as a pro war religion. I think historically if any religion should be discribed as such it should be Christianism.

Totally agree. What we have seen in the last 40 years is idiots using Islam as an excuse for killing etc which has given western countries the perception that the religion is war like. Rather than just used by *Insert expletive of choice here* to further their own ends.

I really dont think making them have different traits is a good idea for exactly the reasons you made Ryry.

 

[mitsho]

I like your idea but I dislike your approach.

Your coming from what is realistic and all. Wouldn't it make more sense to look at RFC and state.
Christianity is normally the big religion in Europe, totally dominating it. From time to time, other civs from all over the world adopt it (Mansa Musa!!).
Judaism exists and becomes sometimes dominant (when a lack of Christianity is for example). If the RNG-God is nice to them, some countries will adopt it.
Islam depends totally on how Arabia is doing. It normally spreads to civs that haven't been "contaminated" by other rels (like Mali or Ethiopia), but it doesn't to all other (because Saladin gets annoyed and closes boarders [Extract: PLEASE RHYE, modify/lower Saladins religion attitude]). The Turks become Muslim if they receive former Arabian Muslim cities (otherwise Christian), I have never/seldomly seen a Islamic Persia, nor spreading of the religion to India (Moguls?), Inner Asia or Indonesia.
Taoism and Confucianism normally get founded in China and spend there a life of not much going on. It is up to the RNG wether the East Oriental Civs become one or the other (more: Confu).
Buddhism and Hinduism both get founded in Delhi which is fine and then spread here and there. The Khmer become fierce Buddhists and one or the other religion spreads West to Persia or so.
[Zoroastrianism could be in and constrained to Persia/a few Roman Cities, but it isn't necessarily a must]

So, what does that lead us up to? Every Religion but Christianity remains small, so one could give Confucianism/Taoism a bonus combined that helps China a bit (Stability? Science), Buddhism something that helps the Khmer and Hinduism that helps India (Stability again?). Islam could receive something to spread better (spreads even if there is already a religion) and make it a competition for Christianity, something that would make Mansa, Suleyman and Cyrus adopt it (Production for the temple?). I see no problem in regarding Judaism as Jewish Enclaves. These have been a bonus for most cities regarding wealth, not in a negative sense (Rothshild is the first example I can cite). Of course this is not the single and most dominating concept of Judaism/Jewry, but a little bit of historical truth is behind it. A Commercial benefit for Judaism at last would be beneficial to gameplay, I would say.
Now, what do we do with Christianity to make it less glorious? Schisms would be a great addition (also available to Islam, other religions are gameplay-wise not needed, at least not without some more oriental civs, like Korea or Tibet or I don't know), but this is not the question of the thread. Perhaps something of a temporal negative science modifier (Middle/Dark Age is a European term, in other places, the world wasn't so dark) combined with better production, why not?

m

 

[simakis]

If i remember correctly Total Realism mod had something similar. the temples gave different bonuses like Christianity gave hammers Judiasm gave wealth etc.

I have to agree with a lot of mitsho´s points though.

 

[sennomulo]

I think we should keep all religions the same. If you give certain religions certain bonuses, you're going to get a lot of people whining about how this religion should have this bonus and that religion should not have that bonus. Besides, I don't really see a viable way to do it without involving stereotypes of one kind or another. Let's say Judaism gets a commercial benefit (Jews are rich, right?), Islam gets a military benefit (Muslims like to kill people, right?), Christianity gets a science benefit (Christians built modern civilization, right?), Buddhism gets a stability benefit (Buddhists never get mad, right?)...you can see how this kind of thing has potential to rile people up. I honestly don't think a scheme could be made, even if you tried to base it on historical reality instead of stereotypes, that would satisfy everybody with regard to how their religion and other religions are presented.

I think this is a beehive we shouldn't be poking.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I suppose if you have small bonuses it would work. In order to attain the bonuses, you must have the religion as your state religion, and build temples. Cathedrals could give larger versions of the bonuses.
Christianity-
Temples give hammers. Modern nations that are first world are for the most, christain, excepting japan and a few others. Christianity was the religion that became the industrial nations.
Islam-
Temples give science. During the middle ages, the Arabs were the pinnacle of civilization.
Judiasm-
Temples give gold. Through the middle ages in Europe, jews were the main money lenders. In addition, israel has a very strong economy.
Confucianism-
Temples give stbility. Not only will this help China, but Confucianism preached how governments should be benevolent. Confucianism was very political.
Taoism-
3 temples give a bonus diplomacy point with every player. Taoism was a very philosophical religion. leaders like nations which are philisophical.
Hinduism
Temples give extra culture. Many of the most breathtaking buildings in history including angkor wat, were dedicated to hindi gods. I myself live by a gorgeous temple.
Buddhism-
Temples give Xp to units. Not because buddhism was a warlike civ, but because, the extreme discipline that came from constant meditation. On the game side, it will make it easier for Khmer to spread buddhism.

 

[sennomulo]

Hinduism
Temples give extra culture. Many of the most breathtaking buildings in history including angkor wat, were dedicated to hindi gods. I myself live by a gorgeous temple.

You mean Hindu gods? Hindi is the name of a language. I don't mean to make fun, it's just a pet peeve of mine and I like to see the words used correctly.

 

[SadoMacho]

Flavours religion is something that has been on the wishlist for a long time of many people, but Rhye always stayed as far away as possible. Can't blaim him. Here are some of my wishes:

-Jews and Muslims don't eat pigs, Muslims don't drink wine, Hindus don't eat cows, Buddhists shouldn't eat meat,... the rescources should bring health or happiness and other recources could give other health or happiness (gold could give extra happiness for buddhist temple as they are often covered in gold,...)

-Hindu have a cast system, so Hindu state religion = cast system

-paganism: something to symbolise paganism

About the war and religion stuff.
-Jihad is a holy war the help fellow muslims that are oppresed and can't worship there god. If you want a military trait for Islam, I would give all units a city defence I in a Muslim theocracy (Iran during the US hostages situation)
-Christans have been using there faith for war since Emperor Constintine (His armies had the symbol of Christ on there shields) Clovis became christian to get the support of the Church and the Romano-Celts to conquer Europe, the crusades, destroying the indians and enslaving the blacks until WWI where god was on every side of the war (God save the king, Dieu avec nous, Gott mit us,...) and the USA (one nation under god) still asks gods help in there wars.
To me all religions have been a reason for war and it there wasn't a religion, well, people would fight wars about what side of an egg they should start eating, so lets leave war and religion alone.

 

[sennomulo]

Jihad is a really sticky issue. You can't say "jihad is this" or "jihad is that", because different Muslims interpret it in different ways, and there is really not much of a consensus among Islamic scholars as to what it entails.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

I actually think this is the best way of implementing specialized religions that I've heard thus far. If it was only +1 of each of those categories (including +1 experience and +1 diplomacy point per three temples for Taoism), it wouldn't totally transform gameplay in an unwanted way. Anyway, I'm not saying it's a change that should be made, but this sounds like a pretty good way of doing it.

I suppose if you have small bonuses it would work. In order to attain the bonuses, you must have the religion as your state religion, and build temples. Cathedrals could give larger versions of the bonuses.
Christianity-
Temples give hammers. Modern nations that are first world are for the most, christain, excepting japan and a few others. Christianity was the religion that became the industrial nations.
Islam-
Temples give science. During the middle ages, the Arabs were the pinnacle of civilization.
Judiasm-
Temples give gold. Through the middle ages in Europe, jews were the main money lenders. In addition, israel has a very strong economy.
Confucianism-
Temples give stbility. Not only will this help China, but Confucianism preached how governments should be benevolent. Confucianism was very political.
Taoism-
3 temples give a bonus diplomacy point with every player. Taoism was a very philosophical religion. leaders like nations which are philisophical.
Hinduism
Temples give extra culture. Many of the most breathtaking buildings in history including angkor wat, were dedicated to hindi gods. I myself live by a gorgeous temple.
Buddhism-
Temples give Xp to units. Not because buddhism was a warlike civ, but because, the extreme discipline that came from constant meditation. On the game side, it will make it easier for Khmer to spread buddhism.

 

[Ryry]

Rex, those are some really good ideas in my opinion.

But I would like to seen benefits and negatives for each religion. Any ideas about the negatives?

-Jews and Muslims don't eat pigs, Muslims don't drink wine, Hindus don't eat cows, Buddhists shouldn't eat meat,... the rescources should bring health or happiness and other recources could give other health or happiness (gold could give extra happiness for buddhist temple as they are often covered in gold,...)

Also a very good point! Actually this might be a good negative. For example, Hindu nations cannot make use of the cow resource, they get no benefit. Etc...

Of course we can see the problems. I went out of my way to address the controversy issue, and made an example to illustrate how controversial it could be. And yet, still, the very first post was about Islam being a described as a pro-war religon.

But come on everyone, can we get over it for the sake of a more interesting game?

Ryry

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Hindu nations not using cows doesn't work, as India has the most cows in the world today. Mostly because theyre not eaten, but still, a more subtle negative connected with the temple would be nice, so you aren't forced to build a temple to counteract the negative.
Christianty-
Temples increase matinence in the city. Many christian temple are rather elaborate, espescially during the gothic period. They need to be upkept, and who better to pay then the government?
Islam-
Temples forbid acsess to pigs in their city. Muslims are forbidden from eating pigs, and with a temple, the practice is enforced.
Judiasm-
Temples forbid the spreading of any other religions to the city, excepting those already there. During the Middle Ages, Jews were persecuted all over, and thus distrusted most other religions. It helps in the gameplay, except when Christianity is found in Jerusalem.
Confucianism-
Temples subtract 1gpt. Confucian leaders disliked moneymakers. Tokugawa passed many laws against merchants. This helps balance such a large bonus for the stbility
Taoism-
Temples do not have cultural bonuses. Their religion created Feng Shui. Their limting architecture reduces the cultural vriety, making temples monotonus.
Hinduism-
Temples create stability hits. india, the largest modern nation that is predominantly hindu, is full of ionstability for it's dislike of other religions, shown in Pakistan and in the death of gandhi. The stability will be very small as a negative.
Buddhism-
Temples decrease military production by 10%. Buddhism was a pacificist religion mostly. It will probably require the xp bonus to be moved to 2.

 

[sennomulo]

What about the cows in India though? It doesn't make sense to not have them there, since they're holy in the Hindu religion after all. They do have domesticated cattle there, they just don't eat them.

EDIT: Blast. Beaten by two minutes. Still, the point stands.

 

[TheAmerican]

Why don't we just attach cultural bonuses to certain buildings? For Islam it could be the library, for Judaism it could be markets etc etc. For example, Islamic cities would get +2 culture from librays if the state religion is Islam.

 

[CivGuy 48151623]

Hindu nations not using cows doesn't work, as India has the most cows in the world today. Mostly because theyre not eaten, but still, a more subtle negative connected with the temple would be nice, so you aren't forced to build a temple to counteract the negative.
Christianty-
Temples increase matinence in the city. Many christian temple are rather elaborate, espescially during the gothic period. They need to be upkept, and who better to pay then the government?
Islam-
Temples forbid acsess to pigs in their city. Muslims are forbidden from eating pigs, and with a temple, the practice is enforced.
Judiasm-
Temples forbid the spreading of any other religions to the city, excepting those already there. During the Middle Ages, Jews were persecuted all over, and thus distrusted most other religions. It helps in the gameplay, except when Christianity is found in Jerusalem.
Confucianism-
Temples subtract 1gpt. Confucian leaders disliked moneymakers. Tokugawa passed many laws against merchants. This helps balance such a large bonus for the stbility
Taoism-
Temples do not have cultural bonuses. Their religion created Feng Shui. Their limting architecture reduces the cultural vriety, making temples monotonus.
Hinduism-
Temples create stability hits. india, the largest modern nation that is predominantly hindu, is full of ionstability for it's dislike of other religions, shown in Pakistan and in the death of gandhi. The stability will be very small as a negative.
Buddhism-
Temples decrease military production by 10%. Buddhism was a pacificist religion mostly. It will probably require the xp bonus to be moved to 2.

Totally Agree

 

[sdLeo]

'Jihad' is a pre-Islam Arab word... It was used by Christian Arabs (the word 'Christian' was first uttered in Syria, btw, by local Christians to describe themselves). Jihad means holy war, we all know that, but it meant holy spiritual war, war against yourself - because everyone knows you are your own worst enemy (or so they say...)

I do think it is risqué to give modifiers to religion... The ideas are good, but it's impossible to keep everyone happy...

 

[Lokolus]

How about Resource changes?
Judaism: cant use pigs, clam or crab but add +1 happiness and health bonus for wine, sheep and cow (Kosher)
Islam: Cant use pigs or wine, add +2 food for wheat and sheep (desert crops)
Buddhism: dont get food from pigs, sheep and deer (meat) +1 happiness from all animal resources
Hinduism: no food from cow and Ivory +1 happiness and culture from cow and Ivory
I dont really have an idea for Christianity, Confucianism and Taoism.

 

[onedreamer]

I think that Religions in Civ4 are all the same because of 2 reasons:
1- complaints of people (you know, religion is always a complicate affair, and no matter how much you read about one, you may always not understand the Philosophy behind it).
2- strategic reasons based mainly because the game is random.

In a scenario like RFC it could be suitable to make religions different, but since I read a random version of RFC is in the plans I don't think it would be a good idea.

 

[dionysos2048]

I dont really have an idea for Christianity

Always at war win civs that have gold and/or oil ?