Remembering 9-11, 15 years later

[SpacemanSpiff]

For those who may not know, 15 years ago today this CivFanatics Off-Topic forum was a prime source of information, sharing, and venting/emoting on that horrific, chaotic day.

This original thread was born out of a complete inability to reach anything else on the internet at the time, so I reached out to my fellow CivFanatics. It now stands as a document of how we were feeling, thinking, coping, at a time when we literally had no idea what was going on. And it is interesting to compare this to what actually happened, that day and years since.

For those who remember CivFanatic Alcibiaties of Athenae, he was there -- and I mean *RIGHT*THERE* -- blocks away, saw the 2nd plane hit with his own two eyes, panicked for his wife (fortunately OK), and lost so many friends. I noticed he hasn't been back here in ~6 years (this is my first visit in 3 years). But on that day he posted his detailed account in this memorable thread. [EDIT: 5 yrs later to fix the links to how CFC now does URLs.]

And only if anyone is interested, here's my 1-year later post in the appreciated 1-year later thread, my first brief offering of that time after some "perspective."


CONTEXT:
For those too young to know or remember, I'm sure if you read these you'll have some "why didn't you just _____?" kind of thoughts about the thread participants. Most of those can be answered with this bit of background info.

There were no smartphones, there were no tablets, there essentially were no touchscreens. There was no wireless network in the workplace (at least not mine), and so no laptops, only desktop PCs. There were cell phones, but the limited "cellwaves" back then were quickly clogged when people started calling to check on each other. In Baltimore (geographically between New York City and Washington, DC), at a certain point at work we were asked not to use the desk phones, either, in order to keep lines clear for people who really needed them. Pathetically, that was all I could do to "do my part" to help ... not using the phones.

There were no TVs anywhere in my office complex (accessible to me, that I knew of). There was limited video online normally, which turned to zero when things got hot. For me, this all started just before the 9am meeting when someone down the row called out that "some idiot flew a plane into one of the twin towers." Before I walked away, all I could get was 2 lines of text from a news site I think was called "Excite" that basically just fed AP news wires (it was moderately popular at the time, but on its way out). I went to the meeting the way everyone did, with some paper and maybe a dumb phone.

When I returned from the 10-15 minute 9am meeting, a page refresh from the text-only Excite produced only one new critical 3rd line of text. The line that changed everything. That a 2nd plane had hit the other tower.

So, to summarize: no cell phones, no desk phones, no TV or radio in the office (for me), no online video, and very limited reachable online news service (until it was basically all over).

What site connected me with people I gave a crap about, whom I could still reach because the site was not clogged at the time? This one.

Always Remember.

I truly hope all is well with you.
Spiff

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If only those darn middle easterners could just let go of these darn grudges they've been fighting over forever.

9/11. Never forget!

 

[Omega124]

/hugs

I dont begin to imagine to know exactly what people were feeling; I was only four at the time and the nuances of death and terrorism were just completely lost to me. I do remember my mom's panicked reaction from picking me up in preschool; I do remember how apparently I pointed out a plane in the sky as I was being brought to the preschool, and my mom thinking it might have been the plane that crashed into the WTC (it wasnt, but who knows at the time. One of them was coming from Boston, which might cross over Albany)

I do remember running into these threads a few months ago because I was curious how far the site's archives went. It.... Hit me pretty hard. I was not expecting that many threads on the event, all the speculation, all the fear, yet the faint hint of optimistic camadarie. It was actually touching how this early CFC bonded together over these horrific events; from my archive viewing I think this is when OT first really became a community.

For anyone who did lose friends or family that day, you have my deepest sympathies.

 

[Darsnan]

I was working in Red Bank New Jersey at the time, which isn't far from the shore looking back at New York City. After the attacks we could see the smoke rising above the horizon. My wife called me from Syracuse a little while later to let me know that, because she had ER and Burn ICU experience, she was on a short list of staff being set up to go to New York City if the need arose, and so I needed to come home to watch our children in case she needed to head out. I remember packing up and heading out, and one of the first things I passed was an emergency Red Cross blood donation center, and already there was a line out the doors of the facility of people queuing up to donate blood. And as I drove up the Garden State Parkway I could look across the mud flats and see just this giant wall of smoke and dust on the horizon, as by that time both towers had fallen. When I got to Interstate 287 I could see at every exit there were various types of emergency vehicles sitting at the exits, waiting to go into the city if the need arose.
On the tenth anniversary of 9/11 I had the honor of attending a small dinner party with the woman who had been our county coroner back in 2001. Her job in the months after 9/11 was to help man a temporary morgue at Ground Zero, where she and other coroners helped identify the remains that were pulled from the wreckage over the next two months. I can't imagine what it must have been like to do that for several months, day in and day out. A true hero of that era in my book.

D

 

[tetley]

I think I was into HOMM3 then, so I wasn't on here at the time. I remember just holing up playing games a lot the next several days, because it seemed apocalyptic. Home playing games was my escape.

 

[Kyriakos]

(edit, RD and tone doesn't really fit my post )

 

[W|M]

9/11 never forget

 

[REDY]

I was then about 16 years. It was sad moment but what happened next in last 15 years was much worse. There should have been lot of things in US and world different if this would not happen. I think that terrorists couldnt imagine that time of bigger success for their cause.

My main impression was then on demonstration against invasion of Iraq, which was first and last demonstration on what I have been (because lot of commies there). I also became active antiwar blogger. It was realy crazy time when I have lost lot of ilussions, comparable only to the first czech presidential elections.

 

[caketastydelish]

I will copy/paste what I wrote on my blog today regarding this event.


Why I’m an anti-patriot American, even today (as of writing this it’s 9/11).

I know I’m making lots of enemies for writing this. But if you read the little tidbit I wrote above this, you’re already aware I’m not afraid to keep it real.

When most people described the events of 9/11, one common expression I hear is “It was unthinkable.”

Was it? Four American planes were hijacked. Two of them hit the twin towers (the World Trade center), a third hit the Pentagon, and a fourth, intending to hit God knows what, hit a field in Pennsylvania.

Roughly 3,000 people died.

The Islamic extremists responsible for the attack were SOBs. Ok. The 3,000 deaths was a tragedy. Ok. I will take this time now to say I am not, never have been, and never will be someone who thinks 9/11 was a justified attack. The terrorists were wrong, and God (supposing God is both real and of a rational mind, neither of which I’m sure of) has sent them to everlasting hell. Fine.



It was a tragedy. But not even remotely “unthinkable”. Or rather only “unthinkable” if you are an American. Getting attacked on your own soil is “unthinkable” for an American. America has never had a major attack on its own soil in its entire history, unless you include the war for independence. Or Pearl Harbor, which is arguable considering it was a military base and not civilian.

Take the Vietnam war. A war that would have been short and relatively painless, were it not for the United States. 2 million Vietnamese died, specifically because of the United States.

If 3,000 Americans dying because “they” attacked “us” is “unthinkable”, 2 million Vietnamese dying because “we” attacked “them” doesn’t even have a word in the dictionary to properly describe it.

And what did these bastard apologists argue? “They’re fighting for our freedom!”

What freedom? What freedom would Americans lose if South Vietnam falls to communism? I’m no fan of communism by any means, but what freedom did we lose? When we left, sure enough South Vietnam fell to communism. But did we lose our freedoms? Which one? Our right to vote? Our right to bear arms? The right to not have soldiers quartered in our home? Which freedom from the bill of rights can you name that we actually lost?

To the contrary, we not only didn’t lose freedom by leaving Vietnam, but for many American men, we gained freedom. The freedom of not having to be drafted in an absolutely pointless war against your will is a pretty damn good freedom if you ask me.

The people of Vietnam are of a different color and religion than most of the people of the middle east, but there are so many parallels.

Even before 9/11, America had done plenty of bombings and other “activities” in the middle east. Pretty much every time we were acting out of self-interest and greed, with preventing the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait being the only arguable exception.

After 9/11 we invaded Iraq, a country which was not holding Bin Laden, nor was in any way responsible for 9/11. Why did we invade it? For our “freedom”. Estimates say somewhere between 150,000 and 1 million Iraqis died from the Iraq war… and considering we completely ruined and destabilized their country, more and more are dying every day. Even if you only want to look at the very lowest estimate (150,000), that means we did 50 “9/11’s” on them, if you consider human life to be of equal value. Of course, I suspect many of these “patriots” don’t feel that way at all. First it was “we are fighting for our freedom”, then it became “we are fighting for their freedom” which would be knee-slapping hilarious were it not for how many ignorant Americans truly believe that and how many Iraqis were brutally killed.

3,000 Americans died on 9/11. The attacks were brutal and indefensible, even in spite of all the atrocities “we” commited on “them”. But the amount of “them” we killed is the elephant in the room, next to how many “they” killed of us.

If we’re going to hold a day as remembrance for 3,000 human lives lost “they” did to “us”, can we at least hold another day for the 150,000 (again, that’s a very bare minimum estimate) “we” did to “them”?

Osama Bin Laden deserved to die and I was happy to see him go. But I do not feel the same way for (at least) 150,000 Iraqis.

And of course, the Iraq war is only one example. Just a fraction of the damage “we” did to “them”.

“They” slapped us around on the wrist, so “we” brutally gang raped them and left them to die in a dumpster… and like I said before, we didn’t even attack the right person. And no “weapons of mass destruction” were found.

Do I condone terrorism? No, not even terrorism against the United States. Attacking civilians are always wrong. But when “they” burn the American flag and shout death to America in the streets, do I see where they’re coming from? Yes.

Being a person of color saying these words, some (who I’ve talked to about these issues in person) accuse of me hating white people.

This definitely isn’t true, actually I think political correctness, “safe spaces” and “trigger warnings” are absurd.

In fact, I can counter that accusation with one very good example: Germany.

Germany committed atrocities in world war 2. They’ve got no one to blame for it but themselves. Germany is also even “whiter” per capita, than the United States. But guess what? The vast, vast majority of Germans today are ashamed of what their country did in world war 2. The occasional neo-Nazi skinhead disagrees but they’re hard to come by… especially considering Germany has anti-Nazi laws put in place. Actually it’s much easier to be a neo-Nazi in the United States than in Germany, specifically because of the laws they have.

Whereas as the average modern German will tell you they are ashamed of their countries war atrocities and they consider it a black stain on their history, so many Americans aren’t even remotely ashamed of our atrocities we commit (and continue to commit). Germany post-1945 has been a peaceful and reasonable country. The same cannot be said for the United States.

So no, this isn’t a “white people” thing. I don’t think most “white people” are evil. If they were, the countries of Canada, Germany, Sweden, etc would be even worse than we are.

What most Americans don’t seem to realize is the rest of the world would be having a party if America’s dominance in foreign affairs came to an end, and yes, even the “white” countries.

America has formerly apologized for slavery by congressional order. That’s off to a good start, but until we apologize for all the other atrocities we commit, I am not comfortable to say I’m proud of my country. Hence, I am an anti-patriot.

 

[stfoskey12]

I was three when it happened, so I don't remember it. But I understand how people were shocked when it happened. Judging by the thread, it seems like the conspiracy theories started quite early.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Spoiler :

9/11 never forget

This wasn't even edgy the first 15 times similar posts were made here.

 

[warpus]

TIFO at the NYRB vs DC United game yesterday

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

My biggest 9-11 memory is from school:

I was in the 8th grade, attending Middle School in the Washington DC area. Towards the end of my first period class, the vice principal came rushing into the room while going door-to-door to tell teachers that they weren't allowed to turn on their TV's today. (The school had just been remodeled and every classroom had cable TV, what can I say the DC area is affluent)

During my second period, which was English (don’t know why I remember that), parents started to come get their children out of school early. From a class of about 30 kids, only around 10-15 remained. On my way to lunch is when I first started to hear everybody talking excitedly (more than usual) and a couple of kids crying. (there were a large number of kids with Pentagon & DC parents)

At lunch was the first time I actually heard about the terror attacks. But because nobody had seen the news, nobody really had any idea of what had happened. I find it almost sadly funny now, but my friend was convinced that the Japanese had begun a kamikaze attack on the US.

It was during Orchestra that myself and others finally learned what was happening. Mr. Sexton said that he could get into big trouble for telling us (as the admin staff had forbidden teachers from discussing it), but that it was our right to know. After describing the attacks he mentioned something that burned into my memory to this day, “we don’t know who attacked us, but I can promise you this; by the end of the week we will be at war.” I guess I equate that statement with the beginning of this modern world we live in.

 

[Lexicus]

I was 9 at the time. I remember very well the rumors flying around school, as none of the teachers were telling us 4th graders about it - yesterday I was thinking what it must have been like to be older, in high school or even college on the day.

My clearest memory is me asking my dad when he picked me up from school, jokingly, "you heard about that accident in New York"? His reply was "it wasn't an accident."

 

[EgonSpengler]

I was at the office when a colleague came in and told me about the first plane. We assumed it was some kind of accident until the second plane.

I don't remember when the name "Al Qaeda" first came up, but it was pretty quickly. A lot of people didn't know much about them, but I'd written a paper on terrorism for an international relations class, so I knew about USS Cole and the embassy bombings in Dar Es Salaam and Nairobi.

Right away, there was a lot of rumor-mongering. I think every landmark in the country was named as a target. Someone even said Camp David was on fire. Camp David? The rumor that the White House was being evacuated turned out to be true. Lots of people were talking about how many people worked in the World Trade Center complex. I think someone said 50,000, which sounded both ridiculous and plausible.

One of my uncles was a firefighter (not in New York) and I remember thinking "how the [bleep] do you fight a fire that high up?" I could imagine the first Battalion Chief on the scene ringing a "fifth alarm" almost immediately: A couple dozen engine & ladder companies, every rescue truck in the city, special units like communications, air-tank replenishment, a hazmat unit, multiple deputy chiefs just to direct traffic and coordinate everything; maybe even a full Chief on-scene, trying to remember how to strap up the turnout gear that he hasn't worn in years. I wondered what kind of mass-casualty plans New York hospitals had, and how quickly the City would activate its "mutual aid" contingencies, to get Long Island and New Jersey fire departments involved. I wondered if JFK and LaGuardia would send their chemical-foam trucks to help douse the burning jet fuel, but how the heck do you get it to the 80th floor? When the first tower collapsed I realized that I wasn't watching the response to a disaster, I was watching the actual disaster.

I remember going outside for a smoke. A colleague walked out behind me and said, "I thought you'd quit?" I saw a military jet overhead. An F-16, maybe. It might have been my imagination, but I thought I could see missiles on its wings.

The company I worked for had just wrapped up a conference nearby, and a bunch of our French colleagues had their flights home canceled and were gathering at our office. They rented a couple of cars and car-pooled to Montreal. After spending a few days at a work-conference they were ready to go home anyway, but I got the impression they couldn't get out of town fast enough.

No one I knew was directly affected by the attacks. A colleague lost a friend who worked in one of the towers, that was about it. I remember seeing the famous "falling man" on television, the slender guy with the necktie flapping in the wind, going head-first, arms back. I'm not sure how soon I realized the world had changed. I didn't think about that right away, I just felt kind of queasy.

 

[EgonSpengler]

btw, I recommend the Naudet Bros documentary 9/11 if you haven't seen it. 40 million people watched it when it aired in March 2002. Jules and Gideon Naudet are French filmmakers who happened to be making a documentary about a FDNY rookie. Parts of the film are tough, so use your discretion wrt little kids.

The clip is NSFW, for some language.


Link to video.

 

[civvver]

I was a senior in high school. I was going in late that day, didn't have class unti like 9am. I remember my mom running into my room frantically saying you have to get up a plane just ran into the world trade center. I was like yeah ok, I don't have school for a couple hours, and I figured it was like some small plane accident. Then when I finally came down I was like holy *%&^. We didn't know what to do but school hadn't been cancelled yet so I went. When I first got there though I went into the office and I asked do you guys know what's going on? And they said yeah, actually we're about to cancel the day so you can just leave. So that's what I did, I drove home. It was all very surreal. And the technology was incredibly different, I didn't even have a cell phone at the time. So I went home. I don't remember what I did, I just remember watching the news and every single radio station had news on it, no music or other programming. There wasn't any local panic though, everything was quiet, everyone just wanted to be with their families.

I actually had a date planned for that night. We didn't know what to do, but we both kind of needed a distraction so we kept the date. However my mom freaked out and said we shouldn't go anywhere cus there might be riots. Our part of town has a big arab and jewish population. I thought she was being a little crazy but we stayed in anyway and watched the big lebowski. I remember that.

The other big thing I remember is the radios wouldn't quit. They didn't return to normal programming for like a week at least. At the time I worked weekends installing pools and we always listened to music but all the radio stations were on news. It was very depressing.

None of us really understood it at the time. Looking back you can clearly see how much it changed us though. I never traveled much before 9/11, so a lot of the changes from there just seem normal to me, all the security and such that came after. I do have co workers who were stuck in airports on 9/11 and told me the crazy stories. Mostly they were just stuck in airports overnight until they could get rental cars to drive home, and they couldn't get their bags for weeks.

It really just changed us all in a lot of ways we still don't fully understand. I mean it didn't affect me directly but it changed so much of the world and how we see it, next came constant war and bad economies, polarizing politics. I can't say 9/11 caused all this but it did seem like a tipping point where the upbeat and hopeful 90s ended.


Columbine had a similar effect for me. It happened second semester of my freshman year. Freshman year we had open lunch, school doors were mostly unlocked all the time, parking lot was easily accessible. I mean you technically couldn't leave school without permission (except during lunch) but it was super easy to just drive by and wave at the attendant. If you showed up late you could just find an open door and hope your teacher didn't notice. The columbine happened and the next year the school went into full lockdown. Closed lunch, a chain across the parking lot, every door locked. It was just all so weird, school was now like a prison in many ways. Everyone became very untrusting.

 

[abradley]

Never forget.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

I have more people and comments I'd like to ask & reply to above, but just real quick for now ...

Right away, there was a lot of rumor-mongering. I think every landmark in the country was named as a target. Someone even said Camp David was on fire. Camp David? The rumor that the White House was being evacuated turned out to be true. Lots of people were talking about how many people worked in the World Trade Center complex. I think someone said 50,000, which sounded both ridiculous and plausible.

@Spengler: I highly recommend reading through the first archived link from my OP here, at least the first 2-3 pages. A lot of what you said/remembered from then is exactly what we were saying right here at the time, still available here in black & white (and mauve/peach? ... this used to be more maroon-red).

I think the most famous rumor/"miss" at the time was the "bomb at the State Dept" claim that went around. I think mostly because NPR reported it and perpetuated it even after other news orgs had reported it as false.

And I believe the Camp David reference came from United 93 (the PA plane), when they knew its direction, then lost it on radar, and kinda thought it went down but didn't know exactly where. I guess they were assuming then that the 'jackers had downed it on a target, and they thought Camp David was kinda the closest site of federal governmental note in that region?

I remember going outside for a smoke. A colleague walked out behind me and said, "I thought you'd quit?" I saw a military jet overhead. An F-16, maybe. It might have been my imagination, but I thought I could see missiles on its wings.
...
I got the impression they couldn't get out of town fast enough.

@Spengler: Where were you at the time? I didn't see a mention. Sounds like near NYC?

No one I knew was directly affected by the attacks.

Same. I feel pathetically out-of-touch with true survivors, but I still feel very connected to the event. I'm sure my perspective and how I view all this in retrospect is *way* different from anyone who lost anyone. (And, to those that did, I am so sorry for your losses.)

btw, I recommend the Naudet Bros documentary 9/11 if you haven't seen it.

I also cannot recommend this film enough.

BUT IF AND ONLY IF what you want is to be a fly on the wall for what it was really like to be right there in the thick of it in those moments, as far as the WTC lobbies at least -- to see/hear what it was like when the 1st tower came down right nextdoor, etc. (I still can't believe they & the camera survived the first collapse given where they were.) But this film would likely be too hard to watch for anyone who lost someone close.

Also, AFAIK, this film contains the only known video of the first plane hitting the first tower ... they happened to be shooting at the time, heard the noise, and looked up. If you've ever seen that footage anywhere else, it came from these brothers and this film.

I first saw it (and recorded it onto VHS) when CBS(?) broadcasted it as part of its extensive 9/11/2002 coverage. BTW, my 2nd favorite 9-11 doco also came from that night: when NBC's Tom Brokaw interviewed the Air Traffic Controllers on duty that day and seeing how it all unfolded for them before we knew anything.

... but we stayed in anyway and watched the big lebowski. I remember that.

The Dude may well have been the best possible person to hang with in that exact moment.

It really just changed us all in a lot of ways we still don't fully understand.
...
Freshman year we had open lunch, school doors were mostly unlocked all the time, parking lot was easily accessible. ... the next year the school went into full lockdown. Closed lunch, a chain across the parking lot, every door locked. It was just all so weird, school was now like a prison in many ways. Everyone became very untrusting.

Agreed. To me, the longer-term, lasting impact of 9-11 on Americans who lost no one close (at the very least) is roughly the macrocosm equivalent of the microcosm of moving from a place where you never locked your doors to a place where you take your life in your hands if you don't. The entire event seemed to move us there without any one of us moving a single piece of furniture.

 

[Omega124]

@Spengler: I highly recommend reading through the first archived link from my OP here, at least the first 2-3 pages. A lot of what you said/remembered from then is exactly what we were saying right here at the time, still available here in black & white (and mauve/peach? ... this used to be more maroon-red).

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you can select the theme CFC uses. One option is to use the classic, 2000 skin, along with a modernized version that uses the same color (the latter is what I use; it looks really nice)