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Removing Growth from AI Handicap list

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Owlbebach, Aug 4, 2018.

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Should "Growth Discount" be removed from AI handicap list?

  1. Yes (I play Immortal+)

  2. No (I play Immortal+)

  3. Yes (I play Emperor-)

  4. No (I play Emperor-)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I agree with that. I really do not see any major balance problems it can bring. My only concern is that if building cost is further reduced than Progress might become even more snowbally in AI hands due to extra production on buildings and food/culture when building is completed. However as i said it seems to me that it is limited by amount of buildings that are available.

    I think I'll do a photojournal with my idea when new version will come out. @CrazyG @ElliotS @chicorbeef @ashendashin Would you guys throw your ideas on what civs to include into the game and whom to play for? Those civs that will be affected harder than others by that change? I can think of Aztec (Gardens), Byzantium (faith per citizen), probably Spain (it will become relatively stronger), anyone else?
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Deity AI start with two workers right? A better change might be advocating that they begin with only 1 because their early capital growth is stupid fast. Also makes rivers way better for them than other starts.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  3. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I don't think I'm in favour of removing Growth from AI Handicaps. Perhaps something to try out first is slightly reducing it together with increasing the food bonus aspects of Tradition.

    I'd also prefer if we first tried reworking Immortal/Deity by reducing/removing the number of starting units the AI has (civilian and non-civilian), and then see if additional/different nerfs are needed.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  4. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    In wiki it is stated that it starts with 1. However it will not make much difference really. I'm sure if you set it to 0 it will be almost the same.
    Again i'm not saying it is too hard. Problem is that handicap mechanic as it is right now leads to weird stuff. How reduction of number of AI units will make Goddess of Love or God-King work better?
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    So in my current game where Carthage has 4 farms with 5 food each by turn 20, if we removed that worker, she would still have the same population?
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Personally I think we are too far down the road for such a change. I agree it can be done, but I also think it will take tuning....and we are already delayed because of the happiness changes.
     
  7. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Maybe 1 or 2 less, but thats not a big deal. First of all AI gets 3 pop immedeately after founding a city (it gets yield for settling). 2nd, if you remove the worker - it will catch up in a few turns, mainly because of Growth discount. Keep in mind that AI needs 30% less food for new citizen, it is not a lot when it is 4 or 5 citizen, but it gets bigger and bigger. Also i don't think earl;y pop is that big of a problem, real problem is in Classical and Medeival, something like turn60-turn160
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    That's what should change if anything

    You should post numbers like the first place so people understand what you are talking about. Just remove the bonus growth sounds really far out there
     
  9. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Imo this is not an important part really. 60 extra food early on is not a big deal. What is a big deal is that AI needs to accumulate 2 times less food than player to reach 15 citizen. Without the discount that 60 food after settling a city will be barely notiecable.
    Well i'd be happy to post number if i knew what to post. I posted screens with difference in population, but what else to post?
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Post specifically what bonuses the AI has to food at what stages of the game. I don't know what you are suggesting; there are many different things that could be considered a growth handicap. Do they have a food % bonus? A growth % bonus? Extra food on settling? What is it?
     
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Probably i explained it badly, but i meant making AIGrowthPercent to 100 for every difficulty. Here is the link to wiki http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/AI_and_Difficulty
    You can see that on Deity AI has 30% discount to growth, which meant that it needs 30% less food to get every new citizen. So if theoretically you need to accumulate 1000 food to frow from 9 citizen to 10 citizen - AI needs only 700.
    And to be more careful it is actually more than 30% because of food stored by Granary/Aqueduct/Grocer. In the same theoretical scenario when city grows from 8 to 9 - lets say 200 food is saved by Grocer. Then to get new citizen player needs to harvest 800 (200/1000) but AI need to harvest only 500 (200/700). So the real difference between AI and human is 37,5%, not 30%
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
    Gokudo01 and CrazyG like this.
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Are you sure? Food building descriptions say they storage a percentage of the food required for next citizen. If AI requires just 700 food to get to the ninth citizen, grocer should store 20% of 700 for AI. Otherwise, it is not working as described.
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  13. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Maybe, not sure about that, but you are probably right. That depends on how exactly is this calculated and at what point the discount applies. But it is not a big difference anyway, i only wanted to show that in is more than 30%
     
  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Just want to add that they don't get that on their capital. The capital growth is workers and discount only. A big balance change we did was prevent AI from getting their city place event bonus for slapping down their capital.
     
    tu_79, LukaSlovenia29 and Owlbebach like this.
  15. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    India, of course. And Sweden, as they are an Authority warmonger that has a pop-related bonus later on.
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Not really a balance problem, but I will say from a pet peeve standpoint. There's nothing like razing an AIs city to the ground. And then a smattering of turns later its been rebuilt and is still a big city in comparison to yours.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  17. Legen

    Legen King

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    So, question. Does the AI's extra growth affect how supply cap is balanced as well? Tall's supply for humans can feel very limiting, and I'm not sure that the AI's supply from population isn't affecting how it is balanced for us.
     
  18. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    AI get extra supply as a handicap too. And yes AI gets more supply for having more population. On Deity i've seen Shaka AI having 100 supply in Medeival (and it was all in use)
     
  19. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Different issue, but not sure where else to bring it up: does anyone else still feel like the AI still gets slightly too much culture from its handicaps relative to other yields?
     
  20. andersw

    andersw King

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    I play king/emperor and there are more things than growth that are way off when diety players discuss things.
    Trade route values, GPT for lux, worker/settler steal, the game is very different.
     

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