Removing scenarios

[Prof. Garfield]

Perhaps the rest of the community should withdraw from the website as well, and delete all the content before they go.

We're a small enough community that I doubt the admins will care if we leave. However, the Civ II community "leaving" might very well mean "disbanding" instead. At the very least, new/returning people will be much less likely to find us. And copying/deleting all the accumulated useful content would be a massive job that I doubt very much will happen. So, we would still be dependent on this site for archive purposes, but with barely any new activity. Giving the admins a reason not to keep the existing content. In favour of leaving is the fact that our group is small enough that we could coordinate and actually achieve it with a decent level of probability.

As far as "politics" goes, I'd point out a few things. The admins don't seem to be actively looking for (or, worse, sending an AI to look for) "offensive" content. Curt's offending material was linking to "mildly adult" art (as characterised by @techumseh ). This seems to be the relevant forum rule:

Inappropriate content
This is a family-friendly forum. We do not want, for example, people coming here to talk about Civ and being exposed to (in particular) sexual content. While we tolerate some discussion of adult issues, we do not permit discussions that are explicit. Advocating cruelty, violence, hateful or illegal actions may well fall under the category of inappropriate content and be deleted or infracted. Inappropriate content can refer to other topics as well that are very context related. Moderators may at any time close threads or delete content that they deem inappropriate or not in keeping with the purposes of this site or of a specific forum.
EDIT: Additional Specific standards of Google, our hosts main advertiser. Images against the Google standards may not be posted.:

Google ads may not be placed on pages with adult or mature content. This includes, but is not limited to, pages with images or videos containing:

--Strategically covered nudity
--Sheer or see-through clothing
--Lewd or provocative poses
--Close-ups of breasts, buttocks, or crotches

We generally operate with a one-click rule as well: You may not link directly (one click) to any page that contains content that is not allowed at this forum. This includes links to inappropriate website, even if the landing page does not itself contain inappropriate content. An exception exists for some forms of inappropriate language (see below).

I haven't seen the art, but "mildly adult" does seem like it likely to be a borderline case at best. They didn't go after "nazi imagery" in a scenario or anything like that.

Even if we grant, for the sake of argument, that the forum admins have "bad" politics, finding a a place with "good" politics creates its own problems. Is there a major service provider that has sufficiently "good" politics, and is guaranteed to continue to have these "good" politics well into the future? Or, is one of our number going to host their own website and forum until they get incapacitated or uninterested and we lose everything? As far as the Civ II forum goes, we seem to be left largely alone by the admins. Also, some of our number probably think that the forum admin's politics aren't bad, or are even good. Will they follow a politically motivated exodus?

If some of your content is at the boundary of acceptability according to the rules of this forum, and you're afraid moderators will rule against you because their politics are different from yours, there is another option: don't discuss politics on this site! There are lots of places online where you can argue politics. Is CivFanatics Off Topic so much better than any of them?

There are definitely services where "mildly adult art" should be allowed, but IMO, it isn't important for CivFanatics. Especially when the de facto rule is "if you link to 'mildly adult art', don't discuss politics in the OT forum." If you do manage to get enough people to an alternate service, then I'll probably follow. But I certainly won't promote or encourage any sort of exodus.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Perhaps the rest of the community should withdraw from the website as well, and delete all the content before they go.

Well where would we go? It's not like we could go back to Apolyton..............
And Discord wouldn't work very well for us 'cause of the unit/graphic threads would not work well there. We would need another forum. Now if one of us won the lottery and could set up a dedicated server with fiber-optic internet, that would be best, but until then, we gotta make do with what we have.....

 

[techumseh]

Perhaps the rest of the community should withdraw from the website as well, and delete all the content before they go.

I don't think that is the best course of action. While I support Curt's personal decision, it would be disastrous for Scenario League to simply leave - the equivalent of mass suicide. We may be weakened and struggling, but we need this organic connection to the rest of the rest of the Civilization community.

 

[techumseh]

Can this discussion still be seen (best with a link) ?

I've not personally seen the posts, though I've received similar accounts from both sides.

 

[Civinator]

I've not personally seen the posts, though I've received similar accounts from both sides.

Thank you very much for the answer.

 

[civ2units]

Too bad that @CurtSibling has decided to leave this forum. I understand and respect his decision but maybe in near future he will come back, at least I hope so.

In my opinion the completely exaggerated 'political correctness' is a thing which becomes more and more worse in the society. People unlearn to respect others opinions which leds to a sort of censorship under cover of the so called 'political correctness'. Not a good development.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Curt got into some sort of argument with a couple of regulars on OT, who then did some oppo research on him, followed his links, found some mildly adult content (his art) and filed a complaint, claiming they were "offended". The Civ Fanatics staff, after an "investigation", upheld the complaint and asked Curt to delete his links. He refused. They did it for him. He quit as mod. So did I. Then he left CF altogether, taking his scenarios with him.

Perhaps the rest of the community should withdraw from the website as well, and delete all the content before they go.

As far as "politics" goes, I'd point out a few things. The admins don't seem to be actively looking for (or, worse, sending an AI to look for) "offensive" content. Curt's offending material was linking to "mildly adult" art (as characterised by @techumseh ). This seems to be the relevant forum rule:
...
There are definitely services where "mildly adult art" should be allowed, but IMO, it isn't important for CivFanatics. Especially when the de facto rule is "if you link to 'mildly adult art', don't discuss politics in the OT forum." If you do manage to get enough people to an alternate service, then I'll probably follow. But I certainly won't promote or encourage any sort of exodus.

At the risk of incinerating what tolerance the SLeague has afforded an outsider like me, I would like to offer a dissenting opinion.

I'm not sure how many of you followed Curt on DeviantArt, or his other venues. I did, for nearly ten years. And "mildly adult" is a pretty generous description of items that include full-frontal nudity, fetish themes, extreme violence, and the sort of hyperbolic partisan hackery dominating your racist uncle's Facebook feed. So far as I saw, apart from some pieces set in the universe that inspired the Bitterfrost series and Battle of Zarklaw, none of it related to his Civ modding. I caution against conflating his work on the SLeague with his freelance cartooning off-site: there is no appreciable overlap.

As to his foibles in OT... while we never met before your voyage to Apolyton, I remembered him in the mid-2000s, and while I didn't agree with his nihilistic outlook, I recognized someone who thought through what he believed and could (with effort) be pinned down for a proper discussion. From 2012 on, I watched that man either succumb to the siren song of angry trolls with money to burn, or slough off a façade: beginning with the hatedom surrounding the My Little Pony reboot, he built a brand around the Culture Wars that encouraged a toxic fanbase of reactionary chuds whose language makes the CFC flame wars look downright Shakespearean. Question whether he was intentionally stoking the hate, and he'd claim it's "just a joke" and "I actually do support _x" and possibly call you autistic for caring in the first place. Someone I used to be able to joke with became obstinate and condescending in a way that made me question if he had ever respected me at all. And this bled into his brief return to OT here: the guy who once signal-boosted anti-bullying pieces by his peers would turn to ad hominem sniping whenever he was challenged. The episode I remember most vividly was him trying to 'gotcha' a transgender user with a well-worn dogwhistle about pedophilia. He loved to dish out, but good luck getting him to take responsibility for what he said.

Case in point: his signature. CivFanatics has touted PG-grade decorum since as long as I can remember; until a few years ago you were risking infraction just for linking a news article that contained a hard swear. Curt advertising a gallery with that sort of content (and that sort of commentary) was the sort of overstep that I'd have expected to be scrutinized much sooner. This isn't some grand flashpoint about free speech: Curt crossed a line, moderation caught up with him, and he responded by blaming everyone else and ragequitting the site. It is, tragically, a fitting capstone to a pattern I watched develop over the past decade.

I appreciate he's your friend (quite evidently more yours than mine), but following his lead would be a gross mistake. Personal loyalties should not jeopardize the Scenario League's integrity as a whole, especially when the cause is of dubious merit.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Too bad that @CurtSibling has decided to leave this forum. I understand and respect his decision but maybe in near future he will come back, at least I hope so.

In my opinion the completely exaggerated 'political correctness' is a thing which becomes more and more worse in the society. People unlearn to respect others opinions which leds to a sort of censorship under cover of the so called 'political correctness'. Not a good development.

Have you seen his cartoons about trans people lmao

 

[Prof. Garfield]

At the risk of incinerating what tolerance the SLeague has afforded an outsider like me, I would like to offer a dissenting opinion.

I'm not sure how many of you followed Curt on DeviantArt, or his other venues. I did, for nearly ten years. And "mildly adult" is a pretty generous description of items that include full-frontal nudity, fetish themes, extreme violence, and the sort of hyperbolic partisan hackery dominating your racist uncle's Facebook feed. So far as I saw, apart from some pieces set in the universe that inspired the Bitterfrost series and Battle of Zarklaw, none of it related to his Civ modding. I caution against conflating his work on the SLeague with his freelance cartooning off-site: there is no appreciable overlap.

Thanks for commenting. I think you're the first person offering an opinion who has actually seen the content in question.

Turns out that a websearch for curtsibling deviantart (autocompleted both on google and duckduckgo) can find his content (or, at least someone whose 'about' page has Civ 2 as one of his favourite games). Most (~80-90%) of it is labelled as 'sensitive content,' but I haven't bothered to sign up to see it. With such a large portion of 'sensitive' content, this doesn't seem to be a case of an artist linking to his art, some of which is a bit mature. It seems more like linking to a portfolio of art, most of which would violate forum rules.

If someone wants to sign up/in to deviantart and vouch for the fact that the 'sensitive' content isn't really all that sensitive, I'll sign up myself and form my own opinion on the matter. Otherwise, I'll be content that the link did violate the 'one click rule' of inappropriate content for this forum.

 

[Tehulotl]

Wait! You all say, basically, that no one actually... KNOWS Curt Siblings DeviantArt ???????? WTF.

That, in my opinion, is typically human. ALL have strong opinions, ALL rage vs each other, and that "freedom of speech but bloody ignorant cancel culture" is a hilarious bunch of weak minded hypocrits ripping apart the pity ruins of good humanity in a most modern new witch hunt of the 21 century all vs all - while the most opinions are a pile of monkey crap, in my opinion, and not worth blaming frozen hell, while the most humans just should shut up and meditate for a gazillion years to reach the point of leaving a smokin pile of dirt. -generally spoken, okay-

And you all discuss seriously to abandon the SL Wiki and this site, the LAST TWO worthy pages of the whole Civ2 cosmos, to actually WHAT? Do a suicidal last step into nothingness????? While the most of you didnt even WATCH Curt Siblings DeviantArt ?????? Or KNOW what the whole peacocky diva scene was?

I am a huge fan of Curt Siblings Battle of Zarklaw. In my opinion one of the best fantasy scenarios of whole Civ. And I follow Curt Siblings DeviantArt, since years. Thorvald of Lym, all what he said, is basically true. For me as an internet perv Curt Siblings DeviantArt stuff is soft stuff, kind of childish little pictures, nothing to worry about, compared to big bad perv internet - but yes, all what Thorvald of Lym said, I can confirm.

That an admin or mod kicks that link, is downright a common thing, nothing to think twice about, a nobrainer, the very MOMENT ANY admin or mod on earth would clic that link, that link would be gone! No question. There is no doubt for me AT ALL, that any admin or mod in his mind, would immediately kick that link, not even thinking ONCE about it! Okay. Please, continue your excellent Civ2 artworks here.

I admire Curt Siblings Battle of Zarklaw stuff, that is excellent work, and this Civ2 haven is a stunning relic of Civ2 TOTPP art and a most genious The Nameless One and Lua fanatics rabbit hole! But to follow an insulted cocky diva into nothingness is most undoubtfully stupid. That was no insult. That was a rightous deletion of a HIGHLY inappropriate link! Even IF the most content would relate to Battle of Zarklaw, -not at all-, and even IF I personally find that some sweet little colorful funny pictures, and even IF I personally find that great drawn fun pictures, and even IF I personally am a huge fan of Battle of Zarklaw and follow Curt Siblings DeviantArt, it still is inappropriate ADULT PORN, and nothing else.

If some of you know what "commissions" are. Adults PAY that Curt Sibling draws "funny" comic pictures. That is no insult or slander! That is not even indiscretion by me - he himself had a link to this site! Publicly on CivFanatics!

That IS what he basically DOES. That is his work. That is his artwork. That is his money! That adults PAY for commissions, that is not even a private little DeviantArt site to show off some pictures. That is a professional showing off his commissions, and what do you think ADULTS pay for, as commissions???? So, basically, I dont know what that outcry is all about! Oh, sorry, I know it, it is unknowingness. Otherwise - there would be silence now. Just like Thorvald said! Exactly like he said.

So please consider SL Wiki and this Civ2 TOTPP Lua fanatics site worthy as a last Civ2 resort!!!

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It isn't that his comics are pervy that's the issue, the issue is that he is unrepentent about his personal bigotry against trans people and other communities

 

[Tehulotl]

It isn't that his comics are pervy that's the issue, the issue is that he is unrepentent about his personal bigotry against trans people and other communities

Dont think so. Even I didnt know that Curt Sibling might be one of these Super Sexist "Alpha" Males being protective. I know this kind of man, I watched some Woke / Cancel Culture / Youtube stuff recently until I banned all feed cause I was not capable of handling that idiocracy any longer, from neither side. There is nothing woke, that is just baby BS, in my opinion. Haters on both sides without any spiritual or woken clue at all. That is basically what I think in general about human kind. Some monkeys with huge sticks, with a fatal non-clue of a huge pile of BS. And all always tell that they dont hate, and have a spiritual clue, til they wonder at the next devastating war, proving just again the good old trashiness of human kind.

Yes, there currently exist crazy people demanding for daily differing "pronouns", and some Super Feminists and Super Sexists claiming women and men only, yes. A nice struggle, which will end in the next ice age.

So, you mean, that admin or mod KNEW about that bigotry and cancelled him, while BEFORE, that admin or mod was okay with payed professional adult porn commissions? I dont think that. I think, some insulted users snitched on Curt Sibling, and that admin or mod kicked that link, just for what it is, and nothing else.

Cause would that have been a total cancel culture thing, that admin wouldnt just have cancelled the link only.

But even if thats the case, that Curt Sibling quit for an admins own bigotry, -cause that point of view would be "funny" here!- If that admin was okay with these commissions, over years, and cancelled Curt Sibling NOT for these commissions, but for Woke bigotry, that would basically be for HIS OWN bigotry, so, basically a Double Woke Royal or something - I thought about that, and that is actually zeitgeist these days. But even IF - that link was highly inappropriate in the first place, and that an admin would be forced to... well, take it seriously in the end, is nothing new.

To quit the last remnants of the glorious Civ2 TOT/TOTPP The Nameless One Lua all kind of stuff, for an Adult Porn link is just..... well, call it hilarious. And that this community lost such a great creator like Curt Sibling just because of that Adult Porn link is..... well, highly unfortunate!

And, in my personal, personal, personal opinion, that "how DARE you" attitude of an over sensitive peacocky artist is lovely, yes, but... so much to no freakin avail that it is always again just a silent fart under some waves. That is just... always again a useless empty cry within this whole jungle, sorry. This lovely attitude just cant win, just lose.

 

[JPetroski]

Hello all,

Looks like most have had a chance to say their piece so let's call this one done. This is a forum for discussing Civ2 Scenarios and such and as some have mentioned, the community is small enough that we don't need this sort of thing making it smaller.

Further, it seems that this has all been handled in the appropriate channels already, with complaints submitted, reviewed, and decided upon by our hosts. They made their decision, Curt made his, this doesn't need further discussion (certainly not here) and if someone wishes to have that discussion, there is, I believe, a process for doing that with the main site moderators.

 

[techumseh]

Agreed. I suggest ending the thread at this point.

 

[Blake00]

Have just got back from my 2 week holiday away and am playing catch up on a great many PMs and notifications.

Agreed! I gave the opportunity for people to have this discussion and from what I'm seeing here I think it's run it's course and no good is going to come from it continuing as it's becoming more about debating site rules and the man himself than discussing his SL work (meaning it's going off topic for the SL).

Regarding Curt's situation IMO he probably should have followed the advice some of us (including myself) gave to Patine which was to stay away from OT if you can't help yourself from getting into fierce debates as that place can bring out ones worst side and get a LOT of unwanted attention on you. The site rules (as quoted by Prof Garfield) didn't magically change and they have to be enforced regardless of how staff are made aware of the infraction. Curt was not asked to or forced to step down or leave, they were his decisions and whether you agree or disagree or like him or dislike him, it's done now and we've got to move on without him. He's certainly always welcome to come back.

Ending the thread.