[NFP] Renaissance Era Policy Card Elimination Thread.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Duke William of Normandy, Mar 25, 2021.

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  1. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Invention (6) (9-3)
    Logistics (26)
    Machiavellianism (10) (9+1)
    Triangular Trade (13)
    Wisselbanken (31)

    Invention (6) (9-3) I think this card got high enough. Not all GEs are that great and truly great ones you snipe with gold or faith patronage at the right moment.

    Machiavellianism (10) (9+1) Arguments as before, my continued effort to keep this afloat for a little while more.
     
  2. Mr. Salt

    Mr. Salt Warlord

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    Invention (6)
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (10)
    Triangular Trade (10)
    Wisselbanken (31)

    Logistics: Unless I'm going Domination, in which case there are clearly a number of superior policies, this card basically has no competition for a red slot in my games (aside from Drill Manuals, as I've noted). It's certainly the best red card for Cultural since you need a whole lot of Builder charges spread out all over the place, and it's one of the best for Science because of the Royal Society (and Communism has a bunch of red slots anyway). While the other cards have their relevance, and they're quite good in that time, they all phase out of relevance eventually except for Wisselbanken in my experience. And Wisselbanken is already on track to win. Triangular Trade was the highest-rated of those, so I downvoted it.
     
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  3. Leucarum

    Leucarum Emperor

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    Invention (6)
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (7)
    Triangular Trade (10)
    Wisselbanken (32)

    Shaving a turn or so off spy operations with Machiavellianism (10-7) just doesn't have the value of extra production from your foreign trade routes, so I know which greem card I'd prefer - Wisselbanken (31+1)
     
  4. AntSou

    AntSou Deity

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    Invention (6)
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (8)
    Triangular Trade (7)
    Wisselbanken (32)

    Triangular Trade (7) (10 - 3)
    Machiavellianism (8) (7+1) - Saves me production and time for a unit which can't be acquired any other way,at a period during the game where there's a lot of competition for production.
     
  5. TCBB

    TCBB Warlord

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    Invention (3)(6-3)
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (8)
    Triangular Trade (7)
    Wisselbanken (33)(32+1)

    Invention (3)(6-3) I understand the arguments, but I can't say I've ever made use of this. In my mind, Wildcard slots are just too valuable to use on this.

    Wisselbanken (33)(32+1) No strong opinions about this era, tbh. But Wisselbanken is a card I use in almost all of my games, much more commonly than Machiavellianism or Logistics, so Wisselbanken gets my vote.
     
  6. João III

    João III Warlord

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    Invention (3)
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (5) (8-3); I'll build spies and use them but I just find I don't get much out of them often enough to warrant use of this card.
    Triangular Trade (8) (7+1); I appreciate this card for its bonuses to all trade routes, not just international.

    Wisselbanken (33)

    Side note: I may have preferred downvoting Logistics, but that seems pointless at this stage. RIP Drill Manuals
     
  7. Vargas1

    Vargas1 Prince

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    Invention (0) (3-3) ELIMINATED
    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (5)
    Triangular Trade (9) (8+1)
    Wisselbanken (33)

    Triangular Trade (9) - One last vote to hopefully lead to a deserved third place finish. It doesn't matter what you're doing in your game; you will be running trade routes, and you could use more gold and faith.

    Invention (0) - Probably the best of the GP cards (maybe behind the late-game one with scientists/GEs), but not better than the others remaining. It also is unlikely to make much of a difference in outcome for your game - if you have enough workshops to warrant using the card, then you're probably getting the good GEs anyway.

    Edit in response to @Francel's post below (I am enjoying this debate, btw): Maybe we've had dramatically different experiences, but I can't get behind those numbers. I have never had a spy get 1000 gold in a single operation, let alone in the Renaissance when these cards are unlocked. At most I've gotten in the 400-500 range, and that's only much later in the game. Also, and again this may be differences in playstyle, but 5 trade routes - at a point in the game where you're saying you could steal 1000 gold from another civ - seems exceptionally low. And it's also not taking into account the possibility of failure (which, if I recall correctly, is about 1/3 of the time for siphon funds even with intelligence agency, unless you gain sources beforehand (which adds another 6 turns to the calculation).
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  8. Francel

    Francel Madam Secretary

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    Quick napkin math - over the course of 24 turns, can run 3 spy ops without Machi or 4 spy ops with Machi. Assume the following: 1 spy and 5 trade routes. You might actually have 2 spies or 10 trade routes, etc, but let's go with a 1 to 5 ratio for the sake of simplicity. A spy can easily grab 1000 gold per operation. TT gives four extra per turn. 5x4x24 = 480 gold. Thus, just running Machiavellianism will earn more than twice as much gold as triangular trade. These (conservative) numbers do not lie. This is to say nothing of the significant 50% benefit towards spy production. Spies aren't builders. They actually take a bit of production.

    Furthermore, earning spy promotions is paramount. Barring open warfare, spies are one of the few tools in your arsenal to hold down an opponent. There is no doubt in my mind Machiavellianism should win this, even though it appears to be headed for the door.

    Wisselbank number 2, logistics number 3, and triangular trade shouldn't even be here.

    Logistics (27)
    Machiavellianism (6) (5+1)
    Triangular Trade (6) (9-3)

    Wisselbanken (33)
     
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  9. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Sigh... this won't go over well.

    Logistics (28) (27 + 1) Again, given my play style, I don't think I ever run out of any need for more movement. Even during peace time, being able to utilize Builders faster by a turn or two helps with small bumps of efficiency all over my civ. Logistics has fantastic purposes for a land war campaign of course.

    Wisselbanken (30) (33 - 3) I don't usually have allies, not for any meaningful duration anyway. Suzerainty I'm certainly more likely to have, but my cities won't always be close enough to suzerain'd city states for those trade routes to be reasonable. I also tend to be running domestic trade routes much more often than int'l trade routes, for making roads and for better food + production (and both for newly captured cities). The few times I'm running int'l trade routes, it's usually to try and prep a road between me and the other civ, or to get gold if I'm somehow running very low. Wisselbanken is clearly not for me, but I can see why other folks value it.

    Logistics (28)
    Machiavellianism (6)
    Triangular Trade (6)
    Wisselbanken (30)
     
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  10. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    Logistics (28)
    Machiavellianism (7) (6+1)
    Triangular Trade (3) (6-3)

    Wisselbanken (30)

    As I said earlier in this thread, at the end of the day Triangular Trade is just some extra gold with a pittance of faith on top. With Machiavellianism I can train spies that can a) bring in more gold than triangular trade can, and b) do a bunch of other stuff that triangular trade can't when I'm in a situation where I don't need the gold. I also don't have to give up a much more valuable yellow slot to use it. I personally feel like this one's not as close as the scores make it out to be.

    I find some of the arguments against the card kind of silly:
    -"Spies are skippable"... um, ok, so are trade routes, but you're only hurting yourself either way
    -"There are other stronger green cards to slot"... as if there aren't way better yellow cards to slot?
    -"Spies can die"... and traders can't?

    *shrug*
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  11. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Logistics (29) (28+1)
    Machiavellianism (4) (7-3)
    Triangular Trade (3)
    Wisselbanken (30)

    I like spies, but the problem with spies is that they move too slowly and operations takes really long. If you are playing against decent players or AI being a little bit more capable, then you will probably end up need to move your spy after every mission. In that case other policies are simply better. If they move and establish faster I will be happier.

    I choose to upvote Logistics because it's very useful on peaceful time. I don't really care if it ends up being No. 1 or 2. Probably No.2 since Wisselbanken is boosted recently.

    Not me, not me. I'm not the organizer of this elimination thread.
     
  12. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Logistics (29)
    Machiavellianism (1) (4-3)
    Triangular Trade (4) (3+1)
    Wisselbanken (30)

    You are always going to have more trade routes than spies, Triangular makes trade routes better, spies are entirely skippable, spies are not a steady and reliable way to make gold (death, capture and even just straight up failure), Machiavellianism loses half of its value most of the time and there are far better diplo policy cards to run, including Wisselbanken.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  13. Vizurok

    Vizurok Magyar Soldier

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    Logistics (26) (29-3) I would say that I was barely aware of the existence of this card until just recently, I just didn't seem to care about this bonus at all. In Domination games, I did not really need it as GGs helped me with tempo early on and by the time the card came online, I was just steps away from victory. In peaceful games, I tend to go for a Monumentality chain, so my Builders are sped up by default until T160-170, but recently, I came to realize that this card can be useful for speeding up the micromanagement chores of the late game. However, its usage seems to be limited to me as Craftsmanship and Integrated Space Cell strongly competes for the red spot, so I only see this card as a "better then nothing" failsafe.
    Machiavellianism (1)
    Triangular Trade (4)
    Wisselbanken (31) (30+1) I firmly believe that this is the strongest card in the current deck and will upvote it one more time - if that's not enough, I will let it slip. One argument for domestic trade routes seems to be roads, but I don't really buy this. You can easily direct your international routes to pick up internal roads, and also, do we really need roads at all? I don't really move units through my empire, if something is needed, I buy it locally.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  14. Mahi

    Mahi Prince

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    Logistics (29)
    Machiavellianism (2) (1+1)
    Triangular Trade (1) (4-3)
    Wisselbanken (30)

    I stated my reasons before. Machiavellianism is the only card left here I use in every game. Triangular trades.. I just don't get why people find this card strong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
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  15. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    Logistics (30) A great card in peace, still super useful in war when playing on a land map. You can just capture 1 city, make it yours, and all siege units starting in your new territory will have 3 moves without a GG, meaning they can move and shoot in the next turn.
    Machiavellianism (2)
    Triangular Trade (ELIMINATED) Again, a very similar card to Drills Manual. This card gives you very little if you don't have a lot of trade routes, it will give you more gold the more trade routes you have. But the more trade routes you have, the more likely you want something else instead of adding an extra drop of gold into the ocean.
    Wisselbanken (30)
     
  16. canadamufc

    canadamufc Chieftain

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    Glad to see Machiavellianism win over Triangle Trade.

    Logistics (27) (30-3) By the later ends of the game I can already speed my builders up with high tier roads. Unlike Wisselbanken, in which there is no other way to do what it does. It can make a builder faster, okay, but I can just buy a builder and it will take me around 2-3 turns to get my first improvement up. If I'm going on a hill or going through a forest, then it could save a turn, however that's a meager value compared to Wisselbanken. Yes, it does add up over time, but it will probably over the course of a builders lifespan only save around two turns.
    Machiavellianism (2)
    Wisselbanken (31) (30+1) Read above.
     
  17. Vizurok

    Vizurok Magyar Soldier

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    @Mahi and I posted at about the same time, so my vote was not carried out to the next post. The final three should look like this right now:

    Logistics (24)
    Machiavellianism (2)
    Wisselbanken (32)
     
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  18. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Logistics (25) (24+1) - Not sure if this is better that Wisselbanken, but it deserves at least a vote for being a good red card.
    Machiavellianism (ELIMINATED) (2-3) - I have many games where I don’t build a single spy, or only use them defensively. I have no games traders or builders to move around. Hence I favour Logistics and Triangular trade over this. Either way, a good time for it to go.
    Wisselbanken (32)
     
  19. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Logistics (25+1=26)
    Wisselbanken (32-3=29)


    Logisitics is a good use of a Miltary slot in every game, Wisselbanken helps in the transition to international trade routes although I prefer internal trade routes until very late to get new cities up and running (I would have had triangular trade in the top 3).
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  20. Mount Suribachi

    Mount Suribachi Prince

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    I think a pretty weak selection of cards in this era, and surprised to see who ended up as top two, and by how much.

    Logistics 23 (26-3):
    +1 movement in your own empire, just at the time when it becomes less and less valuable. You have roads everywhere, Military Engineers are coming online to build railroads, seaborne movement gets quicker and quicker, and shaving a turn off builder movements becomes less relevant. Mid-game conquest is a grindingly slow and tedious process until you get to artillery/battleships/bombers anyway, this card makes it only a tiny bit less grindingly tedious. If this was +1 movement in ancient or classical when shaving a turn off every builder improvement is massive, it would be godly. But even when you have a monumentality GA, that extra builder movement is only a nice-to-have bonus.

    Wisselbanken 30 (29+1): I think I've been won over by the Wisselbanken vs Triangular Trade debate. I think there are still situations where TT is better, but as the gold from international trade routes goes up in the mid-late game, I see the value of Wisselbanken.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2021
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