[NFP] Renaissance Era Policy Card Elimination Thread.

[Drivingrevilo]

Hold a sec. According to what @Noble Zarkon has written, he downvoted Wisselbanken from 32 to 29 and upvoted Logistics from 25 to 26; however, the colouring for the two votes (red for Logistics, green for Wisselbanken) would suggest that he intended to do the opposite. And then @Mount Suribachi appears to have granted Wisselbanken 3 points instead of one.

So assuming that Noble Zarkon's votes were as intended, I think the scores should be:
Wisselbanken: 30
Logistics 23

Moderator Action: I got my colours mixed up sorry - these vote totals are correct now --NZ.

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Hence:

Logistics (20) (23-3)
Wisselbanken (31) (30+1)

Both are good cards. But I just think the combo food & production from Wisselbanken edges it. @Mount Suribachi's point about Monumentality is apt, too: it is often assumed on these threads that Monumentality is being used from Classical ---> Renaissance. In which case, your builders and settlers are getting +2 movement for most of the game anyway, which kinda dampens the effect of Logistics.

 

[MrRadar]

Logistics (21)
Wisselbanken (28)

Let's make the final fight more interesting

Logistics (21) (20+1) - a taste of Gran Columbia for everyone. Can be safely enjoyed in your own backyard.

Wisselbanken (28) (31-3) - it's a good card, made much better with the recent change to include your vassal City States. But as there are only two options remaining, this one gets a downvote. Production may be king, but movement is the emperor.

 

[Mr. Salt]

Logistics (22)
Wisselbanken (25)

This is the closest I think I've ever seen an elimination thread come. Logistics is an uncontestedly fantastic red card for any non-Domination victory, helping you out a ton in both the building of infrastructure and the building of Railroads, an equally powerful mobility tool. In the event you should need to defend against an aggressor, this card has it all for you too, giving a huge buff to your military on the home front. Wisselbanken is a tremendous policy card - I don't even think it has any glaring downsides I need to point out, aside from perhaps competing for space with Machiavellianism or other strong green cards. It's simply less valuable than Logistics.

 

[fy00sh]

Logistics (23)
Wisselbanken (23) oops i meant (22)

I don't really see how Logistics only applying in friendly territory (not just your own btw! it also applies to allies and your city states) is much of an actual downside. By this point in the game if I'm using units away from my own territory it's probably to fight a war, in which case I can capture a city, have all my units in that city get +1 movement next turn to get to the next city sooner, capture that one, and so on until the war's over. Sure, once they move out of that city they lose the bonus for each turn they still haven't captured the next city, but that's not when they need to be moving in the first place, they'll just be staying in place or moving a tile at a time anyways attacking the city center and incoming units.
Wisselbanken is a great card and I believe it fully deserves how far it's gotten, but it does suffer from being one of a few good green cards, where as Logistics is one of the only good red cards imho.

 

[Leucarum]

Logistics (20)
Wisselbanken (24)

I am very much torn between these two. Definitely the right top 2. In the end I voted for the policy I find the most fun (Wisselbanken 23+1), and downvoted logistics (23-3). This has been an interesting elimination thread. The first really contentious policy thread? I did not realise so many people liked Machiavellianism...

 

[AntSou]

Aria withdrew only two points from Wisselbanken. After Leucarum, it should be:

Logistics (20)
Wisselbanken (23)

___

My vote:

Logistics (17)
Wisselbanken (24)

The main negative towards Wisselbanken was recently removed.

You will need trade routes to grow your smaller cities, so not using this card kind of cuts your trade routes in half: those you're using for growth, and those you're using for (mainly) gold. This card makes it two in one. The extra gold you get from not having to waste it on domestic routes also frees other policy card slots.

The main downside to this card atm is that it also helps your ally, which might be detrimental in no teams multiplayer.

I can see Logistics being more useful when playing larger maps, but my experience is of much more limited utility compared to Wisselbanken.

 

[bengalryan9]

Logistics (18) (17+1)
Wisselbanken (21) (24-3)

The thing about Wisselbanken is that while it's great and all you will eventually unlock a government that does the same thing (adds food and production to trade routes to your ally) but does it better (+4 instead of +2). Sure you could stack both bonuses, but by the time I get to that point I've got better things to do with my green slots and Wisselbanken gets put out of rotation for me.

Logistics, however, can last the whole game. There is no other way to add movement points to your units that late in the game, either.

 

[Francel]

I like both of these cards, but apparently for different reasons. The main reason to run logistics is to shank any enemy apostle/missionary that enters or approaches my territory. Builders I could care less about - as someone else pointed out you might save 1 or 2 turns of movement over the course of the builders lifespan. Hardly significant in my view, but for apostles/inquisitors, in can make the difference in whether you catch/kill the heretics.

Wisselbanken I like because of the extra alliance points. The yields are certainly better than what is gained with triangular trade, but just remind yourself what you can get with level 2 and 3 alliances:

-A free eureka every 30 turns
-An additional great person point per turn in every district in a city with a trade route to your ally
-Military units start with a free promotion
-Plus 10 strength in religious combat
and more

Those are the things I really want. Plus 10 combat strength is huge.

More napkin math - Wisselbanken will shave 16 turns off the time necessary to go from level 1 alliance to level 2 alliance, and 64 turns to go from level 1 alliance to level 3 alliance. The multiple benefits of Wisselbanken elevate it past logistics in my estimation.

Honestly it baffles me to see that some of you never make alliances or never use spies. Not trying to be a jerk, but why? They are so helpful.

Logistics (15) (18-3)
Wisselbanken (22) (21+1)

 

[Archon_Wing]

Logistics (12) 15-3 While it's a strong card and often equipped late game, it's not always needed if you don't need to move stuff around atm. I didn't really think it should be #2 so that's as far as it should go.
Wisselbanken (23) (22+1) Because it works with CS's it's even better for games you have no allies, as destroying rivals also destroys their envoys, and making it easier for you to be suzerain. If you're not warmongering and you have no allies, then you really need to fix your diplomacy.

I am naturally biased towards cultural victories (probably 90%) so that often means I'll never switch into Democracy until the end when the AI does so to match their government and avoid the tourism penalty. By that time it doesn't really matter but Wisselbanken is pretty much permanently used once unlocked unless I really need gold badly. If things are going well, I tend to go Wisselbanken and Raj. Sometimes hotswap Containment. You can't spy on allies and that's taken a lot of its appeal away from me especially since I beat down on non-allies and some few thousand gold at the end is inconsequential. Just pillage their stuff if you need some gold.

In Diplo Victories, I may plug in Collective Activism to finish the civics but this is usually a temporary action.

Science Victories would be much different. Spies become much more useful and you may want Cryptography, ISA, and Collective Activism. But even in these cases, production is king through a SV, so I would still devote a wildcard to Wisselbanken if appropriate. Synthetic Technocracy + Democratic Legacy + Wisselbanken isn't uncommon.

And you might actually want the food to grow to 15 but then again Rationalism is a dead meme.

All this in mind, I also try to build Potala Palace more these days.

 

[Vargas1]

Logistics (13) (12+1)
Wisselbanken (20) (23-3)

Logistics (13) - This card is great for the same reason Gran Colombia's bonus is great - it applies across the board (so long as you're in your own territory, which most of your units will be most of the time). Want to put out a settler from your high-pop city on the west coast and send him across the continent to settle tundra in the east? He'll get there a few turns faster. Want to pump builders from one high-prod city and send them around your empire? 1-2 turns saved may not seem like much, but it adds up when you're sending out 10 builders in a row. As mentioned above, you can chase down opposing religious units; move your military engineers faster; and move your army around quicker (plus do things like move a crossbow onto a hill and then fire, or move a catapult and fire, or attack with a melee unit from out of line of sight). I try to build Alhambra when I can just so I can keep this card in while I also use Craftsmen and/or production/upgrade cards.

Wisselbanken (20) - Great card and I wouldn't be mad if it won. Acknowledging this is my personal style, I tend to keep using internal routes for growth late into the game, even once Wisselbanken is available, particularly if I've stacked good districts for growth and/or have Magnus w/ Surplus Logistics and/or are playing a civ with bonuses (Cree, Inca, others). When I go external I tend to go for pure gold, and so I often have a blend of internal/external well into the Industrial era.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Logistics (10) (13-3)
Wisselbanken (21) (20+1)

More movement doesn't win games and less movement doesn't lose games. Science and domination have far better and more necessary policies to use and the extra movement is only really useful during specific times when going for a culture win. Getting your new cities up and running faster or your established cities their next district does win you games.

Not trying to be a jerk, but why? They are so helpful.

Spies are completely skippable. They don't win games, the money you get is unreliable compared to trade routes or even pillaging in some cases, you can't spy on allies anymore, all of the missions that aren't Siphon Funds are kind of useless. Steal Tech is okay in some culture victory games but stealing great works doesn't really do anything and, if you really need to, it's probably just easier to buy them. Spies are kind of necessary for science victories to defend your space ports but, thanks to the Diplomatic Quarter, some luck and good city planning can negate even that. Getting extra combat strength from the Increase Visibility mission is often a waste of time and I found it so much better to just build up an army with tons of siege and support units. I would like for more to do in the late game but at a certain point assigning spies to new missions is just a hassle given how low their impact on the game is.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Logistics (11) 10 +1
Wisselbanken (18) 21 -3

Movement is the most restrictive thing in this game given the UPT shuffle agony and the thing that has the least options for boosting, and it is in the card slot most likely to be free

Wisselbanken gives you stuff you should be swimming in anyways, I absolutly do not get the appeal at all, never ever needed or used it

 

[Josephias]

Logistics (8)
Wisselbanken (19)


Wisselbanken (18+1=19): Coming back to the thread after some holidays to give Wisselbanken a last push. While it is not an always-on card for me, i will certainly consider it if focusing the game in trade. And yes, stacking it with Democracy/Democratic Legacy is the way to go.
Logistics (11-3=8): On the other hand, and maybe this is just personal preference and I am missing a great benefit, but I have not ben moved to use Logistics. Probably the best moment I see for an extra movement point is when inside enemy territory, or when a settler ventures out of your frontiers, which is what logistics does not give. I'm not convinced about getting an extra movement point when traveling inside, and therefore I do not use much the card. I may try it in a future game to see if there is indeed a difference.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I haven't jumped into this thread for a long time, but I guess I might as well be part of history.

Logistics (5) (8-3)
Wisselbanken (20) (19+1)

Logistics: I agree with @Josephias here. It's just my opinion, but I have never really used Logistics before. It just seems like an afterthought on whether or not to use it. I mean +1 Movement is nice, but I just see Wisselbanken as more useful here.

Wisselbanken: I like this card because it gives more incentive trade internationally, especially given that Portugal has been released. Haven't tried it yet, but I assure you I will.

 

[CoconutTank]

Logistics (6) (5 + 1) Unless I'm not using units at all, there's always something I can move, and Logistics is helping me out more often than not.

Wisselbanken (17) (20 - 3) Int't trade routes and alliances aren't my thing. I'm more likely to run domestic trade routes, which I guess means that Triangular Trade would actually be more useful to me.

Logistics (6)
Wisselbanken (17)

Honestly it baffles me to see that some of you never make alliances or never use spies. Not trying to be a jerk, but why? They are so helpful.

With spies, I usually set up a listening post or try to uncover more FoW within opponent territory if I haven't made enough headway yet. Otherwise, the travel time and mission time are both unappealing to me, on top of all the times I've had to redo a failed mission or replace a spy that was killed. Maybe if spies could like, steal strategic resources? That would be a very strong motivation for me to train and utilize spies.

I don't care for alliances since I can't do a shared win with another civ. Furthermore, being in an alliance prevents me from having options. Need to send in a spy to sabotage their space ship? Can't do that (but why ally with a civ that has spaceship progress?). Allied civ is aggressing on a suzerain'd or desirable city state? Can't declare war to push those units back. Allied civ is forward settling or sending religious units? Again, can't declare war to quash any of that. Trying to plead with the civ to stop doing those things has not really worked and basically amounted to wasted diplo favor. Any benefits I get out of said alliances don't outweigh being locked out of intervention capabilities, esp. given how long alliances last.

 

[canadamufc]

Logistics (3) (6-3) If we really look into how much this card actually helps you, then it doesn't turn out to be that much. Wow, you got an improvement two turns earlier than you should have, however that doesn't really decide a game does it? I get my Mine up 2 turns later, so? If you really put in perspective than this card really seems over-valued.

The difference between this being slotted in VS Wisselbanken is that I slot this if I have nothing else, however I put Wisselbanken in favour of other cards.
Wisselbanken (18) (17+1) I don't see the point of running Domestic Trade routes when you have Wisselbanken. You get the value of international trade routes+domestic trade routes, so unless I'm missing something it doesn't add up as to why you would run domestic.

To me, this thread has been prominent of people actively harming their game for the sake of argument. Especially the 'I don't use spies" thing, like okay, but if you run spies your game will be objectively better. You can easily get your money back with spies, so I genuinely don't see why in the world you would not get them. Other examples include domestic trade routes (which I explained above) and alliances. I can maybe see an argument for alliances, but the pros heavily outweigh the cons and the "cons" are pretty situational.

 

[João III]

Logistics (0) (3-3; FATALITY) One extra movement? Just not as useful as Wisselbanken as this point.
Wisselbanken (19) (18+1) Trade routes are good. Better trade routes are better.

Long live Drill Manuals

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

IT IS FINISHED! Wisselbanken achieves 1st place with Logistics running second, a great showdown between two great Cards.


Close the thread, mods!

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Honestly it baffles me to see that some of you never make alliances or never use spies. Not trying to be a jerk, but why? They are so helpful.

I tend to keep using internal routes for growth late into the game, even once Wisselbanken is available

Spies are completely skippable.

Wisselbanken gives you stuff you should be swimming in anyways, I absolutly do not get the appeal at all, never ever needed or used it

Wisselbanken (18) (17+1) I don't see the point of running Domestic Trade routes when you have Wisselbanken. You get the value of international trade routes+domestic trade routes, so unless I'm missing something it doesn't add up as to why you would run domestic.

To me, this thread has been prominent of people actively harming their game for the sake of argument.

Moderator Action: What these threads teach us is that Civ VI is a rich complex game that can be played, and enjoyed, in many different ways. If I had ranked these cards before we started I would have had Wisselbanken outside the top 10 - and that would be right for my playstyle (I keep settling cities late into the game and 2 production just isn't enough to get these off the ground so internal trade routes are much more useful to me). It's good to learn from each other and appreciate aspects of the game we may not have appreciated but we do need to remember other people don't always play the same way as us, or even have the same goals! Some great discussions in here, well done everyone --NZ