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Replay #3 Coming closer Wastin :D

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Seraiel, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Hi Everybody :)

    It's time for another episode of "Replay" :) . This time, everything is the same, so again, game got accepted in HoF, so no reloading, no cheating, no map-knowledge, no whatever, and, as most of you already know at this point, I'm trying to beat WastinTime's ultimate score of 3.2M points :goodjob:

    This post is just to introduce you to the few things that have changed from Replay #2 and to state the settings:

    Introduction:

    Thx to Tachywaxon, and after really getting frustrated about some AIs, I got a spreadsheat, which allowed me to view the XML-Infos on the various Civs! Superb Info on all Civs? If you want that, take a look at Kossins Signature or search the forum for "Civlization Data.rar" and / or "DanF's complete XML Variables" .

    Here is a List of the Opponents:

    Spoiler :

    Frederick (Freddie) , Augustus Caesar (AC) , Willem (The Backstabber) , MM (Mansa Musa or "The Whore") , Victoria (Viccy) , Pericles (the peaceful Greek) , Elizabeth (Lizzy) , Cyrus, Washington , Lincoln , Roosevelt (the american trio) , Darius, Hatshepsud ("Sabrina Setlur") , Suleiman ("The Man"), Ghandi ("Mr. Peacevassal") and Tokugawa ("The Hermit") and Bismarck (the Wonderbuilding German) .


    Thx to WastinTime, I now know that Oracle Currency is possible. This is the reason, why I don't have to play my religious "Super-Shrine" approach anymore, because Currency is just overly powerful, and solves almost all early economy problems completely!

    Thx to MarigoldRan I now have some completely new insights on Civ and especially Marathon, that's why you'll also see some difference to Replay #2.

    I. e.: This time, I play against leaders having Mysticism, and I chose those Opponents based on peaceweight and on "request-rate" .

    For the ones who aren't so familiar with Big & Small Sushi games, one has to stay "cautious" with most AIs, so that they'll trade their ressources with one, so I wanted AIs which are peaceful techers, that help me reach Sushi earlier, and don't get on my nerve with stupid demands.
    Advanced Tactics in this are, to have MM in the game, as he will always trade everything with everyone except his Worst Enemy (WE) and to have an aggressive Civ in the game, I'm trying to befriend and use as a mean of emergency against WHEOOHRN that I expect to go against me or to use him as a "hate-guy" for everyone. I also made sure that there are some Backstabbers which can be bribed against almost anyone as backup.

    And, also to the new ones: The Map-Size is Huge, the Speed Marathon on the difficulty Deity! I play of course the Incans, as I think (with many others) that they're simply the best leader for HoF approaches with their ueber "Checkers" (Quechuas) .

    ------------------

    At last:

    Again I hope, for as many players as possible to join in and read / play the map / give critique / anything!

    I know I'm a decent player and writer, but I'm also still a lot of a Noob, I have a lot to learn from you! Plz, even if I sometimes write WoTs, take your time, it's usually worth it, I'll do my best to keep it interessting and / or funny for you, I'll post as many Screens and Saves as I think are good, and you please give me back with your comments. Even if they are negative, at least then, they give me energy to continue and improve, otherwise, I'll be thinking, that I'm talking to myself :D . I promise, I will answer every post in this thread, so be sure, I read what you write and think about it!
    It doesn't matter if you're a Deity player, a Marathon player, a HoF player, a GOTM player, a Noob, Anyone, you're all welcome and you help make this a good story, so in advance, I thank you!

    End of Post #1 Replay #3:

    Seraiel

    P.S.: If this gets really good, it'll turn into a Strategy Article. I'm not able to write that alone, you know that, and I always give Credits, like you see.

    P.P.S.: Thx to all the Writers of the War Academy, without you, I'd still be stuck at Prince :p
     
  2. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    I don't understand.
     
  3. ShengWuLien

    ShengWuLien Warlord

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    Off topic, maybe, but Seraiel...something has been been eating away at me every time I read one of your posts (which, don't get me wrong are awesome fun to read).

    Why do you call Quechuas "Checkers"? And then often you write "Checkers (Quechuas)" but surely it just takes longer to type?
     
  4. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    It's because he doesn't know or understand the real name of them. They are QQ because man do people QQ about them.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    It almost 3 a Clock in the morning and I haven't slept till finishing the game, so please excuse any laziness this time, I just cannot concentrate anymore. I'm drinking Coffey right now, so it might get better the farther the post gets. I'm listening to "Paul Kalkbrenner" atm, make sure you get a copy of his Soundtrack "Berlin Calling" and / or see the film, he's really one of the best german Electro Artists. Great if one has Work to do and is tired or for driving in a car.


    Ok: This is gonna get quite long, don't know why, but if you have problems with it, read the bold and underlined parts and you'll get most of it. :]


    Here is the starting Scene:



    What we see here, is a decent but not overly powerful start. It's coastal, which is rare and good on a map like B&S, but it also has a lot of non-special Water-tiles, which again is bad, but read further. We have a plains Hill, we have a PHF (Plains Hill Forrest) and we can can reach 2 times of Gems.

    In the west, under the Fog of War, we can see a forrested Flatland and a plains Hill, so no Food there probably, maybe some awesome "mining-sheep" ;) . In the south, there are some stupid Cows (yes, I got Cowed :~) , we could move 1E to reach to the Gold or 1NE 1N too for maybe some Food, but then again, we wouldn't have the production bonus from the plains Hill.

    Now I SIP.

    Why do I do this?


    I've experimented with Checker Rushes a lot in the last month. I know, that there is a minor flaw in VirusMonsters Guide, who I think says that one needs a plains Hill + a PHF for the Checker Rush. That is wrong. I have done successful rushes with as little as 3 :hammers: giving 10T Checkers instead of 6T, that's a production difference of 40%!
    It does work, sometimes, but most of the times one will be stuck with "just" 3 conquered Civs, which is the absolute minimum if one wants to Oracle Currency. 4 is way better, in my best games I've conquered as much as 5 Civs till 1750 BC (T150), the point at which I have to complete Oracle, or quit the game, because it's simply not good enough for HoF. 3 conquered Civs means very little Conquest money, so one will have to raze many cities, unless the conquered cities also have some Lux. Happens on some maps, I love those, but remember one thing: A good game is never decided by the starting position! It's always a chain of events that happen in a good, or bad way. I'm not talking about luck, I really "know" how Checker-Rushes work, I don't fail them anymore. Still, I can have luck, and that ends in Snowballing.

    What Virusmonster is absolutely right about, is, that the plains Hill + PHF approach is superb and makes everything a lot easier. What if your first target has a city placed on a hill and you can't see that? What if you have extremely bad luck and simply loose 2 80% fights in the beginning? What if you won 2 20% fights XD

    We'll get back on that later.

    To make it short, I SIP because the production bonus of the Capital means more to me than another Gold or some Food. Yes. I don't even care that it's a "bad" Seastart without any Seafood, that it has stupid plains Cows, I don't care.

    I've played every 2 Lux Start since last Replay, I have been successful in very many of them, I know, that it needs at least 2 Lux and 4 :hammers: to be successful. This the absolute minimum you need to Oracle Currency. (Anything else is gambling, this is already gambling in 1/20 times. )

    On Huge Marathon, it does not matter if the Capital is bad, one will have 15+ Cities at 1500 BC, and with Checker-rushes it doesn't even matter if it has low :food: , it all doesn't matter. What you need is some high :commerce: and a good production from the start, MarigoldRan would support me on that. This start has the basics, no need to think any further, play the map, SIP.


    This reveals the following:

    Spoiler :



    XD

    Desert and a GH and 105g from taking up the GH with the city foundation. I could have taken it with the Warrior to have the chance of a free tech, but :gold: is actually better than anything except Mining or Fishing, and chances for that are too low. It also saves a Warriorwalk-Turn which are very worthy when there are still Huts to hunt.

    Best of all: another GH nearby, those are really making a difference. Thx again to WastinTime for pointing that out to me.


    Yes, I forgot, I play with GHs now.

    What follows now, is the interessting part!

    The years 4000 - 3500 BC!

    Spoiler :


    Picture of the initial exploration:



    As you see, research went Mining.
    Could have gone Fishing, but I discovered that Ghandi has a hills city. It's no good trying to conquer a hills-city Civ first, it just costs too many Checkers, think of Snowballing again, better go for Toku.

    Yes, that is pretty bad also, Toku is PRO / AGG. AGG doesn't do anything to Archers, but PRO does, also, we wanted to use him as a meatshield or Hateguy for everyone, no, this is not possible on this map. If one wants ot Oracle Currency and Checker Rush successfully, one has to conquer the nearest Civs, there is no place for running long distances, even on Marathon, we can only take on Toku or Bismarck, but Bismarck sits in the Jungle.

    Jungle-Civs are better to conquer later, as the chance of them having strategic Ressources is lower, Ghandi again is not a good choice either with his hills Bombay, Toku is the best of 3 bad choices.

    What we also see:

    THE MAP IS HORRIBLE!

    • Nearly no trees, this is almost always the point with the Gems starts, they are all near the Equator so near the Jungle. This will make it significantly harder to get any classic Wonders, we only have the Capital Sites for that, as they cannot have Jungle but must have Forrests.
    • Where the funk is the whole Food??? And where are the additional Luxes?

    Best of all: I get the "Fire has raged through a Forrest near Cuzco" -Event twice! Thank god I'm playing with GHs and got about 300 :gold: through them, 2 Forrests in the Capital are vital with this little Forrests, but I'd pay them always, as 90 :hammers: or 10 :gold: are no real comparison.


    Now why did I play this map?

    I have become very humble recently, after not getting a single start for 2 weeks! People who have followed my posts know, how frustrated I was, this was one of the first starts I got, I really needed a game that went longer than 1 AD and has at least a chance at beating my personal record of 1.4M points.

    Good points about the map are:

    Spoiler :

    • We have Elephants near, though that doesn't count too much, as one can normally always trade for them, especially with 17 Civs.
    • We have Stone and Marble! That's really an important point, as some Wonders are simply necessary for the Strategy, and Failgold with IND + Ressource is just really strong.
    • The opponents are relatively near to Cuzco, which is good for maintenance reasons.
    • Ghandi is nearby, he probably will found Hinduism really soon. (I play with choose Religions still) .
    • Nothing XD

    Believe me, I really puked hard when I saw this map, but in a HoF game, bad things can always be equalled by good things or a lot of luck, so what happened further?


    The years 3500 - 3000BC!

    Spoiler :

    I've decided to go for it. Take my luck, if the map is so bad, something good must happen during the early Conquest that will Snowball, I accumulate only 5 Checkers and bring them into position for attacking Tokugawa:



    It's 3490 BC, so it's still very early. Toku has surely build something useful for me and not for himself, now I need that Worker more than you Toku...



    Only 2 Archers like expected. Good Toku, you're so strong, now just wait 2 more turns...

    NOEZ!

    3rd Archer in Kyoto! Just in the turn I wanted to attack the city he showed up! Now attacking PRO-Archers already takes 2.5 Checkers / Archer, 5 for 2 is ok, but not for 3, I have no chance, I must try to lure him on the open field and wait for the 6th Checker and then try if I get lucky.

    Once entering warmode, AI will produce Archers in all cities, I saw that in Worldbuilder once. There are chances for a Worker if one steals their only one, but AI prefers to get at least to 4 Archers in the Capital in Wartime, especially someone like Toku or AC, they even get as high as 5 Archers / city when being in War!

    No as said, I try to lure...




    Doesn't help, Toku is stubborn and doesn't move his Archer out of his Capital, and the 6th Checker is already arriving... Normally, one can always lure out some units by positioning ones own units closer to another city, that's what you see on the screen, most of the Checkers are closer to Osaka than to Kyoto, but it depends on the AI.

    Btw.: Kyoto is a really nice place! Some Whine, some Sugar, some FPs, Corn, Pigs... You'll get to know later what I will use that city for, as it involves new / old -> advanced Strategies XD
    Osaka is also very nice, because it's already Size 3, might even grow to Size 4...

    In the meantime, Ghandi founded Hinduism and Mansa Islam!

    3415 BC I attack Kyoto with 6 Checkers vs the 3 Archers and have 4 losses!!!

    This means that the city doesn't fall!

    At least not in the first round :mad: . In the next, my remaining 2 Checkers attack the last wounded Archer, and of course, I loose even one more Checker, bringing me down to 1 Rambo-Checker! (FYI: lvl 2 = Cover, lvl 3 = Rambo, lvl 4 = Hero (because of Heroic Epic), lvl 5 = Elite, lvl 6 = Westpointers and lvl 7+ get names from me...)

    Try for luck... Well, it was already lucky that I took the city at all, PRO-Archers are really tougher than I expected. DAMN!

    I hope now you get, what I mean, when I said, that I prefer the production-bonus of the start against anything else. The attack date was already earlier than the Quechua-Guide states, and Toku got 3 Archers in his city, I would have needed 7 Checkers to take it in the first round with being unlucky in addition, now I can be happy that I've taken it at all, and that's because of 5 :hammers: from the start!

    Imagine if I had only had 4 :hammers: , then aquiring 6 Checkers, the absolute minimum for 3 Archers would have taken me 48T. With Movement, I could have attacked Toku at an earliest of T57 = 3145 BC! That's 18T later then I got the city now! Kyoto is no great production city like one would like to conquer at first, it only turns out 3 :hammers: , but in 18T that's still about 3 Checkers that only come from Kyotos production!
    If attacking later, I would probably also have needed 2 more Checkers to conquer it, because it would have had a 4th Archer perhaps, then double that number again and it means that your Attack-Date is near 3000 BC, that's when we / they talk about snowballing! The effects add up, and 1 :hammer: , 1 time being unlucky, 1 time anything can make a difference of x ((thousends) (k)) of anything!

    Now this time, it's ok till even bad already, I've started with a decent but not overly strong Capital, the map is not overly good also, I've produced a lot of Checkers, I've lost a lot of them to bad luck and PRO-Trait, can this round still turn around?

    A minor detail, or the decision of this game: Toku decides to finish a 2nd Worker in Osaka :love: . Maybe, he's more peaceful than I thought, building 3 Workers, I normally only now that from Ghandi, and especially not from any AGG Civ.

    In 3070 BC I have accumulated another 5 Checkers, one of being a Rambo, they should seriously take the city now or never.



    It's another Thriller again. The first 2 Checkers die, the first does little to now Dmg, the 2nd Checker does nearly no Dmg at, I cannot risk the Rambo yet as I need him for Ghandi's 40% hills-city next: The 3rd Checker is the adjustment for all the lost percentages! He wins a 15% fight (!) and instantly gets promoted to 6 XP and Rambo Status!

    WOAH!

    This was the 2nd game deciding moment. If I look at it now, after having played the round, I didn't know it was so close and so bad in the beginning.


    Now this brings me up to 3 Cities at 3000 BC and 3 Workers captured, but also a lot of lost Checkers. To sum it up: I've lost 8 Checkers for 2 cities, that's 240 :hammers: . The stolen Workers make up for everything, those are 360 :hammers: stolen, so basically, I'm at -120 :hammers: still :) Now that is why HC is OP or even "broken" as many people say. What you also have to imagine, is, that with HC, you don't only go cheaper with Checkers being > Settlers and conquer Workers, but you also conquer Capital Sites, which are always awesome or at least decent.

    But again, remember my User Title, "Hill Archers are OP". Try it out yourself, try to rush hills-cities as first targets, one can have high success, but one normally has to wait so long, that the game wouldn't make a good HoF approach. Those are just the settings that have to fit if playing for HoF, the first Civ may not have a hills-city, otherwise one can simply give up the round. Sad, but fact, VirusMonster would agree. If we (I) are wrong, correct me.

    If we have a look back at Cuzco, nothing special to say. I improved a FP first to support faster Growth (as long as one can speak of fast with just a FP as Food) , and after conquering the first Civ, I've set it to Growth. Atm. it's just improving the Gems.

    Research after Mining ( :commerce: and production) went Fishing (more :commerce: ) followed by Meditation.

    Next post coming up soon, won't be so longish, I promise!

    BRB.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I promised you everything would stay the same, didn't I? Again forgot the saves...

    Here they are :D
     
  7. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I've finished a 200h game and this is the Writeup.

    Well, where I come from, it normal to give people "Nicknames" ;) . "Checker" is not very special, simply sounds similar to Quechua (just speak out the 2 words and you'll notice the difference but also the parity. A friend of mine calls them "Quetscher" which is german, pronounced "Quetschar" and means something like "to sqeeze". One can imagine both, the "Checker", who just is good at what he does and always makes everything to happen with certainty, and also the "Quetscher", who squeezes his opponents to death :p

    Newest Nickname I got recently was "Bully Beatdown" or simply "Mayhem", after Mayhem Jason Millner. Seraiel is a very old Nick of mine I still prefer for online gaming, as I got that Nickname in my first online Clan, the "Archangels of Everlasting Darkness" (was a D2 PK Clan that developed till international success and pked aswell GERBarb as we also "stole" it and once gave it to the russian competitors who didn't give it back for some time in which they catched up with their RUSSBarb :p Aim of them was to get the first lvl 99 Char and the burglary set the german team back, Aim of us was to simply produce Chaos :D ) .

    You're very wrong and you're right.
     
  8. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Is there something with this map script that makes it have massive clumps of he same resource?
     
  9. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Some resources naturally come in cluster like elephants, wines, calendar resources except banana, which I think counts as lower type of resources for the normal map generator.

    Of course, as you go up in map size, you may get even bigger clusters.

    Good you stop trolling, Zero. :wink:
     
  10. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    I was all along thinking as checkmate because quechuas often kill a civilization to its core very early just like killing the king. :p
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    No, Checkers go more for the Queen than then King, if you know what I mean ;) There are also Checkers going for the King, but those all live in Cologne :lol: .
     
  12. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    enjoyed the first part of story... finished some Huge map on the weekend myself (was a shadow of noble guy here on forums, so nothing serious) and huge maps are not for me... in the modern era each turn was like 1 minute staring at screen...bleh

    and 200 hours staring on screen for 1 game? oo...
     
  13. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Back again :)

    Still tired, but I wanna finish this Writeup at least to a part where it overcomes the Quechua-Rush guide and where one can get to know some tactics. Probably I won't make it that far as I'm gonna be stuck up in writing again, but I'm going to do everything to make it as readable as possible, and for Zero, I'll post pictures :p

    Taking on...

    Spoiler :

    Mr. Peacevassal Ghandi. Here is a Screen of the map at 2740 BC:




    Now these are the things you can see:

    The Incan empire is doing a meager 27 :science: / turn atm. This is due to the fact, that the two Japanese cities are only have little :commerce: and Cuzco still needs half a foodbar to grow and support the 2nd gems. A really really slow start, especially with all the Checker losses and the high number of Checkers I'm gonna need for that holy 40% culture hills city Bombay.
    I've directed Espionage to Mansa of course (standart-tactic) to know what I will be getting with Alpha. That we can see the power-ratio of Ghandi only happened because he got some espionage points in the beginning from before meeting someone else.
    You can also see, that I'm 2t away from reaching Priesthood, and have produced an amount of 9 Checkers for the attack on Bombay. Reaching Priesthood in 2750 BC is quite late, but in this game, it's not later than needed, because I'm planning on the construction of Oracle in the holy city of Hinduism, which still has to be conquered! Not only, because it looks like a decent production site having improved Cows. Main reason is, that it's holy and coastal, so it could get a Shrine and the GLH and turn into a great Prophet and Merchant GP Farm. It has the trees to chop out a temple (I don't have gone BW till now though but later I'll get it by trade) , maybe even chop out "Shwedaggy Pegaddy" :p I usually don't build the AP anymore in my games, as I simply consider it wasted :hammers: with no ressource fastening it up, so I'm surely gonna skip on that, but some early Wonders should be ok for 1 or 2 GPs at least.
    Then we already have a good amount of GG-Points from the battle against "The Hermit", I hope that it'll get easier with Ghandi, he's not so famous for producing many troops. Still, I have built the minimum number of Checkers for a 3 Archer defended hills city which could be the worst I could encounter, so it's still safe-play.
    Last thing, a tiny thing you can see, is, that I improved the riverside wine at Kyoto. 3 :commerce: are 1/3 of a Gold-Mine, and I'm gonna need everything if I want to Oracle Currency on this map.

    I need Gold, it's time for an Attack, Ghandi, gimme some!

    2725 BC: Something good and bad happens before the attack. Viccy has reached Alpha at an extremely early Date! Just think about that, Alpha at 2725 BC, that's impossible! Later I found out that she had something like a 2 Gold start, but this still is impressive, she must have beelined it. I take it thankfully and instantly trade Mysticism against Hunting. Better to get something for it then nothing, right? An exploring Scout is also always nice, though I don't think I have the spare production on this map with these cities, but, I'm also planning on trading Meditation against half of Writing with her, and I don't think anyone else is gonna trade Meditation with her, only Ghandi should have it, so I DoW Ghandi...

    ... and he bribes Viccy against me!

    Oh, that is so cheap of you Ghandi! Running cryingly to a girl and beg for help, can't you stand up for yourself? Uhm, begging for help? NOEZ, he gave her Meditation! :mad: I hate you Ghandi, no your gonna suffer for destroying my trade options and you're gonna pay for that too Viccy, for being such a cheap girl. I mean, Meditation for "the mighty Incan Empire", if Ghandi had bribed with something more expensive, it would have been ok, but I feel deeply hurt in my pride by this!

    Next turn reveals, Ghandi just founded his 3rd city, and when AI expands, it tends to leave less guards in the extensions. So this time, only 1 Archer in 40% culture hills-city Bombay, YAY!

    I have two "Unpro" losses (short for Unpromoted Checkers, but also meaning that they are "not pro") , nothing spectacular, that's just normal, but it's good. Now I have 7 troops and can take Ghandis cities all at once, I advance deeper into his territory:



    Now this is really nice. Ghandi had Horses, but he had no Slavery, and the peaceful AIs don't push to Attack-Units. A charriot would have totally screwed my tiny sweet Checker SoD. Bombay is not as good as hoped for a GP Farm, to little food, you'll see later, how I will use that ctiy, but Oracle is fixed plan now.
    Dehli otoh is a great city, still too much :commerce: for "a real" GP Farm, but again high food, which is good on this food-poor map. I'm gonna need lots of Workers and Settlers, Dehli is gonna help greatly with that.

    Best of all, it's no hills-city, so it's 7 vs 2 with normal odds, I expect 2 losses and so it happens, 2 losses, 5 troops left for his last city, this is an ancient Blitzkrieg! Dehli falls in 2650 BC!

    Now you won't believe that, but from the 300g I've got through GHs, I've lost 50g already to burning Forrests and another 20g go to a road between Osaka and Kyoto, which is necessary for the TR between the cities. I didn't tech The Wheel, so I have to pay. I grind my teeth, -70g for bad RNG, never was so bad, but I'm still in the game, and the war against Ghandi is looking good, now lets get to the last city:



    Attacked with 4 Checkers against 2 Archers, so it was really lucky that just Bombay was low on defense, and I "get lucky" once again, now that I don't need it anymore. 1 Unpro wins a fight and instantly lvls up to Rambo-Status, only 1 loss this time.

    Now you see, you can catch up even if it started out really bad. Ghandis cities are really nice, they provide high :food: , good :commerce: and they're all coastal, GLH will be great on this map.

    Just after destroying Ghandi, I discover the 2 Scouts of Viccy near Bismarck. My exploring Checker kills them both, and after Ghandi is dead, and after having the tech she wanted, Viccy is suddenly willing to make peace:



    I cannot trade Writing for Priesthood with her yet, as I still need more :hammers: in the Oracle to get it safely, and I have to little :science: invested into Writing, you know, I stopped it at 340 :beakers: (about the half on Huge / Marathon) to get it against Meditation. I also don't have the money for Math yet, so I don't have to trade, I can wait until maybe someone who doesn't have Meditation discoveres Alpha.


    Lets have a look at the Graphs, now that we can see Mansa in Relation to us, this is gonna be interessting:



    No sorry for MM having that color which one cannot see, I'm gonna explain the graphs a little:

    In the Score, you simply see the Blitzkrieg against Ghandi. Cities come out of revolution in shortly one after the other, the Score really jumps. Gold also peaks due to Conquest, but how the hell is Mansa producing so much more? Most interessting are Goods Production, there you really see the high difference of the plains-Hill + PHF start, it's three times as high as Mansas. He catches up, as Toku's cities were no good, but with Ghandi's, it jumps again, the Incan Empire is #1 Producer of the World, and that counts also for food. In the meantime, after realizing I had enough Checkers for Ghandi, I set cities to grow to Size 4, as Population is the best way to decrease unit maintenance with a growing Checker Army.
    In the Power-Graph, you really see the first heavy losses at Toku, after that it's piece of cake, and who cares for :culture: or :espionage: ?


    2nd Target down! Lost :hammers: : 150. Gained :hammers: by Worker Steals: 120. Spared hammers by conquering cities and not building them: 900? :eek:

    Here is an overview at the date of 2500 BC, some Checkers were free to explore a little...

    Spoiler :



    Now you can see, Washington is sitting towards the east. I can't conquer him though, because I have encountered a Chariot of him! That's too bad he also started out with horses, I really wanted to expand a little further into the east before taking on Bismarck in the west, who still only has 3 cities, 1 of them not being overly good because it's surrounded by jungle, but I can't help it. Going against Charriots with so low production is impossible, I have to take on Bismarck directly.


    Btw.: I used Workers to explore the land too, as simply all tiles were improved the way I wanted them, and I've already stolen 4 of them. They cannot build any roads as I don't have The Wheel, gotta use them for something, aint I? ;) With their 2 moves they're quite decent explorers.

    As you also can see, Economy is getting tight, I really need that conquest Gold to reach Math, and as said, Research stopped at the half of Writing to be able to trade for it.

    One thing I always forgot: I haven't met all Civs yet! There seems to be one or two larger Islands, as 3 are still missing! This is not ideal, as some of the other Civs could trade with them and I cannot. Could also be, that they are so far away, that nobody knows them. What I know till know, is: Christianity has been founded somwhere I don't know, and SH + the GW were constructed by AC, but I don't have any more Info.

    Gonna get myself some breakfast now, BRB :)
     
  14. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    What do you mean with "staring at the screen"? You mean between turns? That takes about 10-15s with my PC. What sucked up more of my time was micromanaging over 100 cities in the end, all having +45 :food: from Sushi and growing like crazy, hell, that was work, every turn took me like a quarter of an hour!

    But I'm very persevering, after 10T I take myself a break. I do have to admit though, that playing Huge Marathon can be very tedious sometimes, but the epicness-factor and the possibility to reach out for the maximum normally always makes it up for me. I am tending towards standart / normal games though, I must at least have tried them, other than that, I'll remain a Noob. But first things first, and first thing is still to reach 3.2M, with whatever approach / map-size needed for that. After that, I still owe Dirk a Toku game on IMM, I didn't forget that ;)

    Sera
     
  15. Ben Lehman

    Ben Lehman Chieftain

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    I like reading these write-ups. I don't feel like I have much to offer, but I do learn a lot.

    If you don't mind the question: Why not tech The Wheel earlier? It seems that, with your large empire, some TR could really help your economy.
     
  16. Habitus

    Habitus Emperor

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    Too many beakers not on the route for Currency Oracle, can trade for it after and the money to research comes from conquests so tr commerce helps but isn't super important
     
  17. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Looks like all the AI cities already have a trade route from AI roading anyway.

    Shame captured workers do not retain their knowledge of road-building :lol:
     
  18. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Thx :) You have sth. to offer, as you see, your question just produced two right answers :)

    This is exactly the point. Cuzco is the only city without a TR as the AI roads it's cities. The Wheel is unnecessary and costs too many beakers (350 :science: on Marathon) . I could gain some :commerce: if I would road to another AI and get foreign TRs, but it wouldn't pay of soon enough and delay the Oracle -> Currency plan. The :gold: and :commerce: mainly comes from working the coast with Fishing and from Conquest. Fishing is really powerful in the beginning, especially with FIN. Very cheap, pays of very soon, and as Inca, it's almost always possible to expand to the coast. The gems are also about 20% of total :commerce: . Last thing that's important is the movement, never have more than 4 troops when exploring on Deity, otherwise you'd have to pay supply. Then grow the cities, so troop maintenance gets lower. Read the Quechua Guide for the formulas if you want :) .

    Next part coming within the hours.
     
  19. Kaosprophet

    Kaosprophet Warlord

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    Probably he means overall. You said 200h game, so that's 200 hours staring at the screen... unless you can micromanage your cities without even looking?
     
  20. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Ok, here is the next part of the Writeup:

    Toku and Ghandi are down. I had a lot of losses at Toku's Cities, probably due to his PRO Trait, and it's odd that he started next to me, as I planned on using him as a Hateguy or Meatshield. Doesn't matter anymore. Ghandi consigned me with the holy city of Hinduism, which will get the Oracle, as it has a chance of becoming a great Prophet Farm.

    The map is weak, too few forrests, not much food, tons of jungle, but, the conquered cities are relatively strong. Not that much in production, what'd be really good for the Checker-Rush, but later, they will serve as great Worker / Settler pumps as at least the Capitals really had a lot of Food .

    Here is the continuation from 2500 BC onwards:

    Spoiler :

    Now Bismarck is the next Target, and I once told you, Capital Sites are always awesome or decent at least. Now the last ones were decent, now have a look at Bismarcks Capital and land:



    Now this is what I'm talking about, when I'm talking about "a real GP Farm"! 5 times Food? WTF, hell, yer! "Give that city to me Bismarck, I have big plans for it, you wouldn't understand, could you please just go away and die?" :D

    I declare war on Bismarck. Now next turn:

    Suleimann, Hatty, Frederick, Roosevelt and and Mansa declare war!



    "This Bastard! He's a weakling like Ghandi, but he's also a fanatic like Hitler! Bribing 5 Civs against me? WTF!!!" I have to watch out for Roosevelt, he's dangerous as he's a neighbour and has Chariots, Frederick only seems to have Archers, and his "Berlin" looks really nice too...



    From Hatty, Mansa or Sulei, I don't even know, where they are on this map! It seems, like Bismarck simply gave Alpha to everyone who could be bribed against me. Didn't know, AI can be such a Maniac. On the picture you can btw also see, that Mansa is teching Math. This is odd, because I won't be able to get Techs from him against it, you know, my plan was to tech Math and trade Math + something vs Alpha and Oracle Currency and then trade for all the rest. Well, whatever.

    Bismarck bribing the other AIs against me with Alpha is a good and a bad thing for me:


    First of all, more Civs have got Alpha now, so I have a very high chance to get Writing from one of them. Problem is: Those Civs are at war with me. I somehow have to wait a little longer, then make peace, and take the opportunity of getting a free DoW from Frederick, not giving me any Diplo-Maluses, and pillage the hell out of him after I've conquered Bismarck in another Blitzkrieg.

    The war against Bismarck lasts for 5 turns, then it's over. DoW in 2320 BC, this is the picture from 2270 BC:



    How is this possible? At first, Bismarck's cities were only lightly defended. I saw this as I only sent 1 Checker to Hamburg to have look first, saw only 2 Archers, and then instantly splitted the Stack to attack Cologne at the same time. Essen was conquered by reinforcements from Cuzco.

    Now I take the already well promoted Checkers and proceed into Fredericks territory. One of the Checkers even got "Hero-Status" (lvl 4 = Heroic Epic) during the war against Bismarck. None of the AIs which declared war on me have shown up somewhere yet. Frederick has some hills cities, but, Berlin, as you saw, is built on flatland.

    I decide to leave the hills-cities
    for the moment as it would simply cause too many losses to conquer them. Remember, it's at least 3 Checkers / Archer in a hills-city, often one needs even 3.5 or 4. Now the Archers in Fredericks hills cities are even promoted to Guerilla!

    This is the adivce I give to you if rushing with Checkers: Even for earlier conquests, don't attack the hills-cities, unless they're really worth taking! It's not cost-effective to attack them, a hills-city with 3 Archers can cause as many as 12 losses, that's more :hammers: then you'd need for a Settler, not counting the :gold: you'd need for the upkeep of the troops! Attack the other cities, conquer them, ignore the hills-cities unless they're holy or awesome Capitals. AI will always be willing to make peace, after it has lost some units / cities, and the :mad: from the population isn't so important, as one can always whip the city down to size 3, where it will have no :mad: from occupation.

    I play with Fredericks Archers :) . I leave some of Bismarcks cities undefended to lure them out, and beat them on the open field :D . I also position my troops nearer to a lightly defended city of Frederick, so he tries to move his Archers there. I do this for lvling Troops and because I have to waste a little time until I have accumulated enough troops to attack Berlin.

    In the meantime, Frederick and Roosevelt are willing to make peace. I accept peace with Roosevelt immediately of course, his Chariots could cause severe losses to me or at least cause a lot of trouble. War with Frederick on the contrary is a free invitation to get another great city and get some :gold: through pillaging and leave a weak target for a follow-up war after the coming peaceful rex.

    Btw.: Some things to pillaging an enemy: Pillaging is really powerful in terms of making money. As already told, I've had -70 :gold: through negative random events, but I have made almost as much from pillaging unnecessary land-improvements after Conquest. I have seen though in one of AZs videos, that he pillaged the Cottages of cities he conquered later, this is something I wouldn't do! Improvements that one can work soonly afterwards shouldn't be pillaged, especially Cottages which have to grow, I really don't understand him there at all, but, one will always find something that can be pillaged without having a bad conscience, like farms which can be rebuilt, mines often bring as much as 12 :gold: and the outer ring is often good for pillaging during very early conquest, where one cannot easily get a Borderpop. So think about it, pillaging rocks, but pillaging Cottages one soon could work is the wrong decision, that's my opinion.

    2200 BC, I'm able to make peace with Hatty and Mansa by giving Mansa Priesthood and Hatty Meditation. I don't want them to build to many units and probably come after me with a Stack I don't want to have to counter, as I'm already in the transition to peaceful rex. With Roosevelt, it was easy to make peace as his Scouts were somewhere near me, I killed them, got war-success-points, got peace, but Mansa, Hatty and Sulei sit far away, I cannot get war-success against them, and at sometime, they would show up with some units. Having to give away Meditation / Priesthood again sucks, because I wanted to trade those after getting Currency, but again, whatever.

    Berlin falls in 2180 BC:



    I make peace with Frederick, and have already traded Priesthood vs Writing with Hatty, after having had invested 400 :science: into Writing. Finally.


    Checker Rush complete!

    Here is the summary:

    3500 BC: Attack on Tokugawa, conquered cities: 2
    2800 BC: Attack on Ghandi, conquered cities: 3, one of them being the holy city of Hinduism
    2300 BC: Attack on Bismarck, conquered cities: 3
    2200 BC: Free gift of Berlin from Frederick through his DoW, other cities ignored as lying on hills, conquered cities 1

    Status of the Incan Empire: 10 Cities!
    Production spent on Checkers: 31 Checker = 930 :hammers:
    Number of Checkers lost in the Conquest: 16 = 480 :hammers: lost
    Production gained through Workersteals / not having to build WBs: 5 Worker = 600 :hammers: + 8 improved Fishies = 480 :hammers: = 1080 :hammers:
    Production spared through not having to produce Settlers: 9*300 = 2700 :hammers: - 480 :hammers: through lost Checkers = 2220 :hammers: :eek:
    Numer of GGs born: 1

    I guess, after having gained more than 3k :hammers: , nobody will argue anymore about which leader really is the strongest and simply the best for HoF approaches, although, what I'd really like to see is someone making a Writeup about Hatty and doing this Math, but I guess I'll do that myself in one of my follow-up rounds, when I'll be playing a Gauntlet or just for fun ;) .

    Reseach Path: Mining -> Fishing -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Math

    Here is an Overview of the Incan Empire at 2120 BC, after Berlin has been pacified:

    Spoiler :



    Things you can see:

    The cities have grown quite large. Atm, the Incan Empire makes up 16.5% of the Worlds population while only owning 3% of the land! Cities, which have grown to Happy-Cap, have started producing Settlers, except for Bombay, which could already have completed the Oracle, but is waiting for Mathematics and building a Monestary in the meantime to be able to spread Religion if I want to. Perhaps, a temple would have been better, but anyhow, Bombay doesn't have the Food to work Specialists really. Berlin is producing a Monument, as the neighbouring city of Munich got Fredericks new Capital, so I have to produce some Culture if I don't want to loose to many Tiles.

    Here is a map by Cultur so you can betterly see the Opponents:




    And an Overview over the financial Side:



    As you see, without the Conquest-Gold, I would have nearly no Research at all, but with it, it's extremely high, Math only takes 14 turns! Of course, all cities are running in full commerce mode and working as many see tiles as possible already.

    Make sure to read the next Episode of Replay #3, I hope you had fun, next part will come tonight or tomorrow.

    Till then, cya,

    Seraiel
     

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