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Representation and Hurrying Production

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Duke Allan, Jan 1, 2006.

  1. Duke Allan

    Duke Allan Chieftain

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    Why not?



    And now that I think about it, why is Representation considered so different from Universal Suffrage? I understand that Universal Suffrage tells us who can vote, and Representation tells us what we vote for but how is that seperated into two distinct forms of government?

    Why are there the options, "You can all vote!" and "You can all be represented!" but not "You can all vote for your representatives!"
     
  2. Unholy Cow

    Unholy Cow Chieftain

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    Well think of the Roman Senate. The people were "represented" by the senators, but there definately wasn't universal suffrage.
     
  3. shahreevar

    shahreevar Prince

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    i agree. this piece of so called Civics needs to be changed. its hard to find a nation that is Representative, and yet used slavery to "Rush" things.
     
  4. Duke Allan

    Duke Allan Chieftain

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    All those who were allowed to vote were allowed to vote. In Australia do they let 4 year olds walk into the polling booth and plant their X? Or tourists? Can I vote in the USA? Can I vote in the UK?(No, I'm 17). Even in the most democratic of democracies, the UK :mischief:, I can't vote. Like it says in the civilopedia, there is no 'true' universal suffrage, you have to draw some lines, it's therefore just a matter of where you draw the lines. And if you take how the romans thought then you can see how their lines were 'sensible', (Please bear in mind I do not agree with them)

    Roman 1: "Yay, we've kicked out that tyrant! We can establish the rule of the people! The people can choose someone, who will go to a specific place and express their views for them, having everyone go would be silly and we'd get no work done. So these people who represent, hey thats a good word for it, represent our views can decide what happens by also choosing, which ever choice has the most support obviously means the most people would like that to happen! It'll be great!"
    Roman 2: "Yeah thats just fantastic! But hang on, does that mean Butkins the loveable old door-opening slave can have a say in what happens to me?"
    Roman 1: "Well obviosuly not, slaves are possesions, It's like letting a table vote. I suppose women shouldn't aswell, they're all descended from Pandora, the one that opened the box, they obviously aren't responsible enough. Also, Jim the farmer who comes in from the plains, he shouldn't either, not being from Rome how can he know what rome needs?"
    Roman 2: "Right so thats means everyone who is responsible enough is able to vote is able to vote? Yay!"

    So we can say that they did have Universal Suffrage, it's just in a form we find unreasonable, so it's probably better that the civic should be called Reasonable Suffrage.

    Now we can argue that the Roman Senate did not have Reasonable Suffrage because it excluded 5/6 of the population. "How can the Senate possibly be Represenative if only 1/6 of the people have their views expressed?" The Roman senate therefore was not representative of the Roman People at all, as so few of them were actually allowed to vote. The Romans did not have Reasonable Suffrage and therefore did not have Representation either.

    I therefore argue, that without Reasonable Suffrage you cannot have Representation.
     
  5. Daarkseid

    Daarkseid Warlord

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    Who says "representation" has to represent the interests of the people? I think Representation in the case of Civ4 refers to Oligarchy or Constitutional Monarchy where the "representatives" tended to voice the needs of the landowners or aristocrats or the general affairs of the state itself. The people are otherwise seen as those to be ruled over, taxed without consent, and otherwise "obligated" at times towards tasks against their will(in civ4's case, forced labor if Slavery is in effect or conscription if Nationhood is in effect.)

    As to the actual effects, not sure how it means specialists produce more science. I'm guessing the largest cities get extra happiness because they have greater sway over the Estates General or Parliament, and can therefore get more money spent on said cities "greatness".
     
  6. Duke Allan

    Duke Allan Chieftain

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    Civilopedia entry for Representation;

    In representative governments the population elects a number of "Representatives" to run the government on their behalf.
     
  7. Daarkseid

    Daarkseid Warlord

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    You got me there then. I should read through the civilopedia more often. I'm guessing the government types are trying to mirror the ones previously encountered in Civs I-III.

    Despotism=Same
    Monarchy=Hereditary Rule
    Representation=Republic
    Police State=Communism or Fascism(as they were represented)
    Universal Suffrage=Democracy

    Since its under the Government civics, and they're all unlocked by the Pyramids(like in CivI), that's probably the rationale.

    Which doesn't quite make as much sense, now that we have the civics system to better articulate our governments. Especially now that Representation doesn't appear anywhere within the ancient or classical age.
     
  8. narmox

    narmox Emperor

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    Ever heard of the United States of America, pre-civil war? ;)
     
  9. Duke Allan

    Duke Allan Chieftain

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    I wonder if anyone has tried Universal Suffrage and Slavery at the same time in the game? Buying and Forcing hurried production?

    Which also reminds me, can anyone answer why can't you buy hurried production under Representation?
     
  10. Unholy Cow

    Unholy Cow Chieftain

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    Duke Allan, I see your point, (nice dialogue thing:p ) but I agree with Daarkseid in that Representation simply means that certain sections of the population are represented by a person, not necessarily chosen by the majority or even agreeing with the views of the majority. I believe that the games' creators wanted to make the distinction between what we would define as "Universal Suffrage" (All citizens over a certain age can vote) and the free male only suffrage that occurred in the past. If that made any sense at all.

    I do agree with you on the hurrying bit though, I think hurrying gold should be made accessible earlier. What would be your suggestion on the bonuses that Universal Suffrage would bring if it wasn't gold hurrying?
     
  11. Carrot

    Carrot Chieftain

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    Greeks? Romans? Pretty good description of the city states, don't you think?
     
  12. Duke Allan

    Duke Allan Chieftain

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    I'd agree in some ways, but the game's presentation of Representation as quoted prooves that this is't the case in game terms.

    Hmm, I love the bit in the civilopedia entry where it says the best thing about Universal Suffrage is everyone gets to vote, and the worst thing about Universal Suffrage is that everyone gets to vote. So maybe +1 happyness per city, -1 research per 4 citzens per city.
     
  13. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    The United States till slavery was abolished.
     
  14. Grohan

    Grohan Bug-hunter

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    I have allways thought that representation in Civ4 means representative democracy while US means direct democracy...
     
  15. Corbeau

    Corbeau Jack of All Trades

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    I doubt that. The only nation to use direct democracy was Athens, IIRC, and they sure didn't have universal voting!
     
  16. gimhalos

    gimhalos Chieftain

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    There are different kinds of democracy.

    A direct democracy, where voters vote directly on the issues, I think it was Ancient Greece who established this, I could be wrong.

    A representative democracy, in which the people vote for other people to represent them.


    Just because you have suffrage and CAN vote doesn't mean you are voting in a representative democracy, they are related but certainly not congruent.
     

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