[GS] Request: Critique my civilization

[Francel]

Hello. This is my second game of Gathering Storm.

Continents, standard size, Emperor difficulty, Ancient-->Modern (t250 standard), Egypt

I wouldn't call it a disaster, but I am getting crushed by my ally Rome. Anyway, I wanted to ask, would anyone be willing to take a look and offer suggestions? What am I doing well, and what could be improved? Have I built the right buildings and the right tile improvements?

I haven't actually built any theater squares yet. Here's the thing. I don't like to remove rainforests and woods unless absolutely necessary, and I don't like to build districts anywhere without good adjacency bonuses. Finally, I don't like to harvest or remove any resources. This is just not something I do, ever. Maybe this is because of how much I played other civ games. How bad is this? Maybe I just need some "tough love."

Also, I hate and I mean hate putting too many cities close together. I want each city to be huge and work every possible tile. Normally I want at least 5 tiles of separation, but I forced myself to put some four tiles apart.

Thanks so much to anyone who can help me be a better player.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

If you post a T250 save then nobody is able to help you. Since they don't know how you get to such kind of situation, and also anyone who plays well may have very little experience dealing with T250, since they never played that long.

If you post a maybe T30 situation I guess there may be more accurate advisors.

My point is, if you're still playing at T250, there must be something(maybe a lot) you have done inefficiently in the first 50 turns. (also of course between T50~100, T100~150, T150~200, T200~250, however T0~50 is the most important since things snowball and we may be inexperience with "your T100". ) So if you wanna learn you shall focus more on early game.

 

[Francel]

Alright - Here is a medley of save files from earlier in the game.

I know it's a tall ask to have someone look at that stuff and offer suggestions, but I'd really appreciate the help.

 

[montalaar]

diplomacy. you should not be ally with rome, but harass it, bleed it and attack when its bled enough. instead ally yourself with its enemies. i would try raise naval+air fleets and destroy rome cities, so only ash and despair is there, not ski resorts all over. plus id try convince all others on he`s continent to attack him at the same time.
and why you not finished off holland? you got amsterdam and then what happened? you got tired to move your units? you should finish off civ in such situation, what benefits it gives you why you allow it to stay on map? why japan is attacked only now? all that continent had to be yours alone long ago.

faith. i do not like that pantheon either. when you got it? its bonus was worth at time when bonuses are most needed - while you were setting up your civ? why you needed 2 housing and 2 amenities? it was somehow important at that stage? it makes so little sense... ok, you got your pantheon and you felt you needed to build those holy sites to make any sense of it, right? at what stage? tell me, not in era, when you had to develop your civ as quickly as possible? and yet, you do not have even religion with all those efforts on holy sites... thats... well... such a waste.

wonders. and those wonders indeed looks pretty on map, but let me ask you honest question - did they helped you to set your civ up and running? which one helped? almost all of them are waste of hammers in my eyes. what benefit for your civ comes from statue of liberty? im struggling to even guess. you have built huey teocalli, but tell me, how many hammers you get out of it? look... man, you get whole THREE hammers out of this wonder. how effective is that? three. hammers. to build it you need 710 hammers. man! eifel tower is so expensive, why you even need it? what will change if your tiles will be more attractive? your science will go up? production? you do not have earth godess. whats the point? man!
forbidden city only wonder i can justify. maybe, if its build with help of engineer.

districts. you have three campuses. i mean, three. ok, but you use card for campus adjacency, have you counted how much science you get out of it? no? eight science from whole government card. eight, if i am not missing something. look, you have 11 trade routes, trade confederation card would give +1 culture/science per route, all right?
and why you need six encampments? what is your logic behind this? how they help your civ? six of them. you have hubs, that is good and in right amount, these could be better target for 100% adjacency card. yet they are clustered bad. you have government plaza, yet only districts bordering it are holy site and...entertainment complex. umm... why? why circus is right next to gov plaza? how is that benefits your civ. district placement is a mess. and you do not need holy sites, you need campuses and theaters. your industrial zones are +1. why? it should never be that way. never. it is pointless. it is one big mess with districts.

land. so much food, your capital is working on food, yet you are far out of housing. ra kedet and iwnw work mostly on food tiles, yet they are overabundant on food and do not need it. remove ALL farms, you do not need them there, in almost any of your cities. in apu you have 81 surplus of food. why you need all these potatoes? how does it help? and where are lumbermills? you need production, not food in your big cities. and in all others, for that matter.

i hope i was not harsh, fair question, fair answers. wonders are trap. and if you go to war, finish it off, except if you have good reasons not to. harass civ who goes fast ahead, trip it, force it into wars by bribing its neighbors. improve your land, get hammers instead of potatoes. have science and culture up and running. weight what government cards really benefitting you and what is a waste. cluster districts and you see wonders how your civ stats go up.

p.s. and for sake of all whats holy - why do you need canal in amsterdam? in city so low production, why build it, using 18 turns?

be well.

 

[Francel]

Great stuff Montelaar - that is exactly the kind of insight I want and need to hear.

Admittedly, I am a Civ V veteran and I guess I don't know some Civ VI mechanics as well as I should. The way I like to play is big populous cities. Maybe they aren't very good - I'm not too sure - that's just what I like.

In choosing to place my districts, I am looking mainly at adjacency bonus as well as placement next to rivers (iteru). As far as some sort of grand strategy as to district placement, I am not too sure.

As far as religion, it's too bad I missed out. I would have chosen feed the world though anyway at least. As far as conquest, I thought not eliminating them would be better in the long run for diplomacy. Wasn't too sure about that either...

I had to burn down a lot of their cities as it was - they were placed too close together. I got a lot of hostility from everyone for doing this. I really dislike how closely together the AI settles.

As far as wonders, the Huey T was for the +2 amenities. Statue of Liberty was for +4 DV.

Could you refer me to some tutorials? I've been watching youtube when I have time. Thanks to PotatoMcWhiskey for teaching me to settle on plains hills.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

T7:
Don't start with double scouts in Civ6. On your map I see 3 improvement-able tiles so I may start with a builder. Yes you can start with single scout, but don't start with double scout.

T55:

If you don't build any Holy Sites early, why do you choose River Goddess? You're wasting a Golden Age Dedication for prophet? Also it seems that even if you're wasting that dedication you still don't get a prophet.

As Egpyt you really have a lot of pantheons to choose. Religious settlement, earth goddess, Divine Spark if you really wish a Prophet, and also god of forge. I can't imagine someone ignores all of these and choose a blank one.

BTW As Egypt at T55 you shall already built some UUs and begin rushing your neighbor(instead of being rushed). These UUs are really strong. Why do you build archers?

Governor. Let's see what's your first governor. Victor??? Also I don't know why you don't put Victor, the archer and the warrior to the front line, but leave them in a place where Japan seems not be attacking. In fact from the save I cannot imagine how you defend your front-line city. It has only 10 strength, if Japan units all attack the next turn then it falls.


So you're basically wasting your golden age dedication, pantheon, governor title, and unique unit, all of these important early game stuffs, and you're wasting all of them, for, exactly nothing?

 

[Victoria]

This is my second game of Gathering Storm.

The first 100 turns does dictate a lot of the rest of the game.
You do not like chopping or close cities, that limits you a bit. But certainly early game you need to be pushing out settlers rather than finishing districts. If intending to get to T250 and play a longer game as I often do, you do need to ensure you keep up in science and be very careful about your neighbours.
But be aware, at 250 the AI is getting closer to a victory, if you are just cruising and having fun that great is that’s what you want, but disable victory conditions or be happy to lose if you are not careful.

If you are watching potatoe you are doing ok, just have a few games and enjoy without stressing over the finer points.

You can win VI deity with a single fat city but you have to be efficient. I won an emperor game only after getting 10 cities at pop 30 which is an efficiency Nono, but it can be done. You have flexibility and choice in the game.

 

[montalaar]

yeah, game became more and more complicated. which i like. i play civ since civ 2. it was simple as brick then, if compared to civ6.
if new to this iteration, i agree, its easy to make your civ not effective. hammers and science are cruicial, as well as culture. and under all of it flows economy. and if that base is done relatively well, you can go for most of victories without much worries. runaways need to be knocked out brutally. or it can be fatal. government plaze could be most important district cluster, if placed right that city, usually capital, become stellar city with all parameters very high. need producton, food is easy, plus you could want watch your population not goes too high right away. as for wonders - oracle, pyramids, petra, colossus, mausoleum, forbidden city, few others are indeed good, but they have to be justified. as example, petra is amazing on desert hills. you may earn gold and buy out engineers, able to rush wonders like petra. i try avoid to settle with very low production. better i miss some lux, but have few more hills or forests.
wars should be decisive, you do not finish them half done. you will be hated anyway and in situation where you see two civs, especially japan and holland are only with you, you take them out as fast as you can, for they are city spammers and runaways. and egypt warcarts are really strong and if you have horses, you have super mobile army. need to think carefully what governors you want. amani gives a lot of flexibility, due to her ability get city states to you. early game its important. early game everything is important, for that matter.

 

[Francel]

Hello. Montelaar mentioned the canal in Amsterdam... So maybe the execution was flawed but my master strategy was to use the leader attribute of Cleopatra, Mediterranean Bride, to forge strong alliances. My allies Cree and Rome were on the other continent though.

I cannot reach them with trade route. How to fix? I try harbor for ships, and then I try canal as a hail mary. Well I still don’t know how to reach them!

Also I keep bringing up potato and for the pantheon I actually consult his spreadsheet, River Goddess high rank, and pairs well with Iteru - district bonus on river. I choose the golden age +4 great prophet because I really want religion. However I still did not get.

This was disappointing but I had a plan at least.

I prioritize food, housing, and amenities. I only plop district in a good spot, and I try to avoid chopping and never harvest. Is this wrong?

Also, is optimal city spacing six tiles between city centers? In this way, they do not compete for tiles.

I look like newb but I played 7 and 8 in civ V. Hard life...

 

[Victoria]

I cannot reach them with trade route. How to fix?

A trade route will only go through tiles you have explored and only reaches 15 tiles. Send a trade route to another city along the way to your allies and when it finishes it creates a trading post in that city which allows you to extend your trade route another 15 tiles.

I choose the golden age +4 great prophet because I really want religion. However I still did not get.

There are only 5 prophets in the game, before choosing a golden age dedication check they have not gone or will not be gone before you get one.

I try to avoid chopping and never harvest. Is this wrong?

this is your choice. Chopping is one of the most powerful things in the game. You do not need it to win but it helps a lot.

Also, is optimal city spacing six tiles between city centers?

Many good players will tell you 4 tiles because you want cities close together for sharing district adjacency and for the Coliseum, entertainment districts and power plants but otherwise chose locations that are best for your needs rather than distance.

 

[Francel]

Very helpful. Thanks Victoria.

So, just to make sure, if there are more than 15 tiles of water between cities with trading posts, there is no way to reach them? I put trading posts in my coastal cities, but it wasn't enough it seems... (a lot of water between continents?)

 

[Kataklysm]

I understand it all comes down to playstyle here. You obviously are an Empire builder type of player. You like to use a bit of everything, you like it to make sense from an historical perspective, you like to do the 'right thing' for your world's population. I like to play like this as well.
But if you want to win, and be good at higher difficulties, you simply can't play that way. You must learn to see the game as one big board game, as mathematics. Just numbers. No historical logic. Then only you'll be able to destroy your peaceful neighbors without remorse. You will beeline your way in a single direction, even if it seems completely irrational. Then only you'll have a chance to win. But maybe you'll find this playstyle boring. And it's ok. Over time, I found out that I like a mix of both. So I play Emperor and go along with the flow without being too focused on the efficiency of everything. So I make lots of bad moves and mistakes, but my game feels organic and I have a shot at victory most of the time.

Good luck!

 

[Francel]

Hello. I just wanted to share, I have improved much thanks to the help of everyone on this forum. I just won my first game GS game on immortal.

Up next: Deity.

Many thanks again.

https://imgur.com/2hsk3Jc

 

[kryat]

Congrats @Francel! Winning on immortal can feel like a huge step.

To rebuff a little bit of the sentiment here, it is completely possible to play on immortal the way it seems you want to play. I have pulled off several games on immortal or higher with peaceful play and minimal chopping, and almost never harvesting. I only chop or harvest if a tile would be way better suited for something else.

Here’s some of the keys I’ve found to be helpful at winning:
-Be ready for repelling invasions early, so having archers, horsemen, walls, and defensive settling
-Run city projects often
-Make friends early, and get them to fight your wars for you
-Lean hard into alliances and trade routes as soon as you can
-Don’t sweat wonders unless you’ve got a really good reason to do so
-Focusing on one important city state is better than losing a lot of suzerain status, but having the envoy bonuses is even better
-Lean into the districts where your envoy bonuses are
-It’s ok to have large population cities, but have the tiles (and therefore, the pop in the city) ready to do something more than get you more population
-Play to the strengths of the civ

This may not be the most efficient way to play (my wins are usually around T280-T320), but I find it very fulfilling.

 

[Francel]

Thanks so much for the kind words. Admittedly, I came with a Civ V mindset. However, I have enjoyed incorporating advice from the forums, and I feel very much improved as a result. Truly I am grateful.

Here are specific examples. Chopping and harvesting. I have been able to build important things more quickly, and get better district adjacency bonuses. I recently took out a banana for a plus 7 campus. Never would have done this before, but it worked out well.

Great person projects. I never did these before, but now I use them selectively to get certain ones.

Diplomacy. Making lots of as needed trades to buy things at crucial moments

More importantly I don’t just wing it, but rather have a specific plan given my civ and the map.

Also, thanks to youtuber potato who helped me so much.

(and my cities are even more fantastic as a result)

 

[Ezerin]

Hi, my congratulations to you! Looking at the screenshot i see you did a lot of conquests, and while it being the most efficient way to win, even if you don't target for domination victory, i don't think it will actually teach you much. Try to play peacefully, deal with what you have and don't rely on converting other's goods to your, it will force you to learn game rules much faster. Efficient city management requires more knowledge to be keeped in mind, and by time you will develop your ability to plan your cities far ahead.

I played your save (7 turn) to turn 250, and played mostly peacefully. Had only 3 wars, in 2 of them i was involved through alliances (any alliance include defensive pact by default) and i didn't even participate in them, and one was declared on me by Japan early in the game, so i razed one of his city (others would say you should keep it) and that's all. You may see those saves if you want. However, good luck with the game, i personally think learning process is the best part of game so i envy you a little bit.