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Request for advise to enjoy marathon

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Rustonreddit, May 17, 2018.

  1. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2018
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    So im fairly new to VP (not to Civ 5) but Ive played a lot these last weeks and recently, after getting used to the new mechanics, Im having difficulties enjoying marathon games.

    My last settings:
    • Marathon speed
    • Huge map
    • 20 Civs
    • 20 City States
    • Continents
    • Diety
    • Policy: progress
    • Civ: Ethiopia
    • Human handicap: cant steal workers from City States. Cant declare war on Civ just to steal workers
    • No barbarians. No ancient ruins. No events.
    My issues are 2:
    1. China AI seems to be the only one to do well consistently scientifically and culturally.
    2. After getting libraries (not Great library) my civ manages to catch up in science with the leader. After getting Oracle and the effects of religion belief Way of transcendence for entering Medieval I just snowball and Im too far ahead for any Civ to be a threat scientifically and culturally (only China). I stop playing when Im entering Renaissance (with all medieval done) and most of the other Civs are in early medieval/late classical.
    am I just quitting too soon and the AI can catch up later? is ethiopia too op for marathon? should I ban to myself Oracle and/or Way of Transcendence?

    I know the game is not balance around marathon speed (and that this speed is easier for humans) but are there any settings or something that i can do to artificially try to balance it?

    am I better quitting Marathon and go for Epic or Standard speed?
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    The game generally is most balanced on 8 civs, standard speed, barbarians on.

    If you change the settings too much, it won't make for a great competitive game (though as a role-playing experience can still be fun)

    So I would try to change a few of those options, maybe instead of marathon do epic, or use 12 or 14 civs instead of 20. China has really good early game, generally speaking late game civs are kind of unfair on marathon.
     
  3. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Chieftain

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    I think you probably are quitting too soon, because you're playing Ethiopia, that's probably why you have a tech lead.

    Civs can spy on you and close the tech gap, or just invade you outright, pass World Science Initiative and/or Scholars in Residence, and even when you have a tech lead in the bag, a civ can sneakily win Diplo.

    I've never played on Marathon so I can't really comment on that.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  4. ryanmusante

    ryanmusante Chieftain Supporter

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  5. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

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    Thanks for the help.

    @CrazyG Do you think that with less civs and more room to expand the AI will perform better? but, it is going to help the human player too, no? Also, i may choose to play with Civs with strong early game to "force" a good performance, cause as you said late game civs are gonna have trouble in marathon.

    @chicorbeef that may be true but for my experience in vanilla is really difficult for the AI to catch up once you have a lead. but this is VP and I dont really know how the catch up mechanics work

    @ryanmusante I was reading that thread before. Really interesting the CS rewards stuff. I didnt know about it.
     
  6. Grabbl

    Grabbl Chieftain

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    That is true in Vanilla, and it's not longer true in VP. The AI gets increasing bonuses with the game going on (in contrast to the headstart it gets in Vanilla). So, when you play on the "right" difficulty for you, it is certainly possible for the AI to fall behind and then catch up. Also, tech lead is much less important in VP than it was in Vanilla, the different yields are more balanced (and culture is at least as important as science).
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I would leave the number of civs to whatever the normal amount is (12 for huge?). The AI is pretty good at expanding.
     
  8. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

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    Thats a really interesting thing. Do you guys have a "cost" or a rule of thumb to think of for the different yields? I know that 1 science is more important than 1 gold, but for how much? I always choose to work the yields by feelings (is 20 turns to grow too much or ok and stuff like that) but with culture and science i have difficulties knowing how much should i sacrifice to get 1 more of those.
     
    saamohod likes this.
  9. andersw

    andersw Chieftain

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    Woa I think games are a bit long on epic normal size, I can't imagine Huge Marathon ...
    With that said, a few snowball AI's common when I play are China, Ethiopia and Babylon, but it also depends on room and neighbouring AIs.

    As someone else noted Ethiopia have a very good tech rate in the first half of the tech tree.
    On Diety in particular AI's should be able to catch up.
     
  10. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    To me the game is already too long on standard! Epic and marathon would be unbearably slow for me. I'm thinking about playing some quick speed / small map games myself just so that I might be bothered to complete my games.
     
    Bascule2000 likes this.
  11. Sruixan

    Sruixan Chieftain

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    As it happens, I myself prefer to peck away at Immortal/Deity Marathon-pace games over a couple of weeks - when I tried out the VP challenge a fortnight or so ago, I couldn't really wrap my head around how fast everything was going! Slower games are definitely easier to snowball in, but the AI does a fairly good job of playing catch-up, depending on their circumstances, so I'd recommend trying to stick your next game out 'til the last half of Industrial/first half of Modern era at least - though come to think of it my last four or five games haven't actually gone past Modern...

    I'd be curious to know how many times you've played with the settings you've described, or ones much like them. A lot of interesting experiences can come from mixing up civ choice and map type a bit, for instance. And don't forget your other policy trees! Progress remains stubbornly alien to me, so I conveniently enough Tradition and Authority are the only two I can really advise on. Tradition could provide you with a longer game, whereas Authority might actually make them even shorter, albeit more fun! Turn barbs back on, maybe even knock them up to raging if you fancy, and just go to town on your nearest neighbour - if you can pull off the Authority early game, it makes for an easy ride afterwards, but don't underestimate the challenge of actually getting your first couple of capitals... especially if, like me, you always seem to end up with Askia as a neighbour. In the past few months, I've had good times with Venice, Austria and Brazil for Tradition, whilst the Aztecs, Mongolia, Japan and (to my pleasant surprise) Indonesia have been Authority stand-outs.

    But yeah, I'd encourage you to try mixing things up a little. Self-imposed restrictions/goals are a pretty good shout; I do like to go into a game with an idea of something I'd like to do, be it "spawn an absolute ton of spices", "marry everyone" (I did this before the current VP challenge! honest!) or "just go crazy with 6/7 movement skirmishers are you kidding my I should not be allowed these". And then the fun comes from the fact that said idea will inevitably get torn to shreds by the sheer randomness of the situation you've been plonked into ("oh okay Darius's shown up to the city I just founded with immortals welp", "uh did Bucharest just eat Kathmandu? and Genoa? and Rotterdam?!" and "so yeah Russia's on the other side of this thick mountain range and they have both the Great Wall and kreposts" respectively, though my recent personal favourite was the Brazil game where I was stuck on a continent of just me and Attila for ~350 turns; the only thing scarier than horse archers is the knowledge (courtesy his city names) that China, Russia and Sweden were all out there doing their own things and could probably not be relied upon to cancel each other out).

    tl;dr - yeah, try holding out a bit longer with your games, and spice things up with some setting outside your comfort zone
     
  12. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

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    Ok. Ive been thinking a bit about this.

    • Im gonna step out of ethiopia and pick other civ (I chose ethiopia because i like his flexibility and the religion (I dont know why but having a religion is one of those things that i love to have: get a religion, a general in the capital, coastal cities and watch the whales jumpin around).
    • As some of you recommend Im gonna let the game run for more time and actually try to get to the end.
    • Its been like 3 "hardcore" tries with these settings with more or less the same results. I know is not a big sample size but as I have not played this game for a while i was actually enjoying starting over. I dont feel to be a hardcore player, i like the "roleplay" feeling, that is why i play marathon, to enjoy every era as much as possible. This game speed also allows me to forget about the need to win the game. I just wanna play and see the world develop. But the harder and challenging the better.
    • About policies, i may be completly wrong but this is how i see it: authority sets you on the way of "kill and conquer" and tradition on "im gonna do my stuff" and progress i see it as a nice and flexible middle point. My civ can go to war and expand but is not a necessity like with authority and can also do well its thing in long peaceful times.
    • Im probably may include manually a bunch of civs ive been seeing to do well: China, Russia, Celts,... (any advice is welcome)
    • About the confort zone, you are completly right. In the end, maybe is better to set most of the stuff as random (even the civ to play) and adapt to what the game provides... Probably, im too stubborn of what type of game i want to play
     
  13. grmagne

    grmagne Chieftain

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    Out of curiosity, what kind of PC do you have to play Marathon with a Huge map? I find it takes forever to play Epic & Large and that's with a pretty powerful machine.
     
  14. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

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    I think nothing too fancy. RAM: 8 GB, Proccesor: eight core AMD 8350 4GHz. I remember playing on TSL YnAEM 43 Civs and it was really hard for the computer. Now, as Im not ending these games, i dont know if later in the eras the computer will be able to handle the turns on a reasonable time...
     
  15. a1nosweat

    a1nosweat Chieftain

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    new to VP and playing Deity? Hardcore.

    Difficulty is about 2 levels harder in VP. ai plays well, and tries to stop you winning at every level.

    Byzantium might be up your street.
     
  16. Rustonreddit

    Rustonreddit Chieftain

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    Ive been playing a lot these last weeks and marathon is a lot (a lot) easier than standard speed
     
    vyyt likes this.
  17. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    If you play on huge maps, I strongly suggest the wonders expanded mod-mod.
     
  18. Dawnpromise

    Dawnpromise Chieftain

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    I myself play on epic/huge speed/maps and I can say that game speed for me depends heavily on map size. I can't imagine playing marathon and spending 100+ turns locked in a cornder waiting for open border and ocean crossing.

    Religion is often a deciding factor on whether I play a civ for me as well. Mostly I play Byzantium (so I have full control over my religion) but Celts are also a good choice if you want a solid chance and getting religion early.

    When it comes to policies I'd argue Progress is less 'middle ground' and more 'Imma build my cities!", tradition is 'leave me alone to do my thing in the corner'.
     
  19. vyyt

    vyyt Chieftain

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    Yeah, I have never tried Marathon, I always play crowded huge/epic/emperor. With all the new mechanisms, the game complexity and improved AI, I would expect new players having trouble with Deity VP. But maybe Marathon is really much easier ...
     
  20. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    That's a common way to define tradition but I think it's very wrong. Turtling is a bad strategy on deity regardless of the policy tree you open with. Tradition is about generating great people and being rewarded for it, at the cost of not having any bonuses outside the capital. This synergizes with various civ uniques, other policy trees (artistry mainly), and produces a lot of tourism because each GP born is a historic event. The aggressive VP AI won't let you turtle in a corner so you still have to have an army and it's still worth conquering a neighbour or two.

    With its current AI I'm not sure I could recommend VP to a peaceful builder type of player... it's just a very warlike environment and you don't get to play solitaire in a corner, at least not on any normal map on deity.
     

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