Requesting help analyzing this situation

[Zymos]

Edit: Solution: Fraternity is really damn op.

Map: Communitas.
Map size: Large
Speed: Epic.

Got a great start as Egypt. I managed to found 6 cities, grab Stonehenge + Pyramids + Artemis and even steal all but 1 of my workers. I went progress and so did the Zulus.

But then the Zulus started taking off in Science and military. I don't understand what propelled their Science like you can see below (Info Addict graphs). Like what is actually going on here, what are they doing? The bump in Science for me is me building barracks and libraries.

Zulu kingdom:

I also noticed Morocco started really taking off in terms of Culture output as can be seen below. What are they doing to get this kind of output this early?

Moroccan kingdom:

 

[phantomaxl1207]

My guess is they got Fraternity (+3 Food per city and +3 Science from connections).

They also took over America.

You should be able to catch up in Science with Burial Tombs.

 

[Zymos]

My guess is they got Fraternity (+3 Food per city and +3 Science from connections).

They also took over America.

You should be able to catch up in Science with Burial Tombs.

I am about to take Fraternity myself + connect my cities. I skipped on doing it early to not bankrupt myself but it seems to have worked out nicely for the Zulus.
I went back in time to where their Science plateau'd at around 1225 and very correctly, they have 4 cities all with connections between them. That means +12 science from connections and it fits how much more they had over everyone else.
Fraternity also explains how they grew so darn fast. Thanks for the help.

Got any more feedback about how Morocco could gather up that much Culture so fast? They are running Authority. Could it be Discipline + stacking units in all cities perhaps?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Got any more feedback about how Morocco could gather up that much Culture so fast? They are running Authority. Could it be Discipline + stacking units in all cities perhaps?

Seems like a good guess. Their UA gives about 4 per TR w/ different Civ/ CS. It wouldn't be uncommon if they have their 3 TRs up already, or have picked up Petra or Colossus.

I assume it's too early for Kasbahs.

Could they have picked up Drama & Poetry?

 

[Zymos]

Seems like a good guess. Their UA gives about 4 per TR w/ different Civ/ CS. It wouldn't be uncommon if they have their 3 TRs up already, or have picked up Petra or Colossus.

I assume it's too early for Kasbahs.

Could they have picked up Drama & Poetry?

Too early for Kasbahs yeah.

They have 11 Techs so far. If they purely beelined it then yeah they could have. It's probably mostly Discipline and their trade routes.

 

[tu_79]

Zulus raw science may be impressive, but it comes at an efficiency cost. +5% tech cost per city IIRC. If Zulus cannot increase their science output later you're not going to get behind.

 

[Zymos]

Zulus raw science may be impressive, but it comes at an efficiency cost. +5% tech cost per city IIRC. If Zulus cannot increase their science output later you're not going to get behind.

Yep yep. They have 11 cities to my 6 yet our Science outputs are equal at the moment. Are you sure it's only 5%? I thought it was around 8%-10% ish. But at 5% per city, their 11 city empire has 25% higher tech costs than my 6 city empire.

 

[merill]

Are you sure it's only 5%? I thought it was around 8%-10% ish. But at 5% per city, their 11 city empire has 25% higher tech costs than my 6 city empire.

It depends on the map size. I think it's silly (i undo this on my games), but... some people ask for it.

 

[Zymos]

It depends on the map size. I think it's silly (i undo this on my games), but... some people ask for it.

Would you mind posting the actual numbers for each map size? If you know them of course.

 

[merill]

Spoiler :

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '17'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_DUEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '15'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_TINY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '13'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_SMALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '11'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_STANDARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '9'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_LARGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '7'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_HUGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );


UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '17'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_DUEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '15'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_TINY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '13'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_SMALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '11'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_STANDARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '9'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_LARGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '7'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_HUGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

edit: recent +1 to everything

 

[Zymos]

Spoiler :

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '17'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_DUEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '15'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_TINY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '13'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_SMALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '11'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_STANDARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '9'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_LARGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesPolicyCostMod = '7'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_HUGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );


UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '17'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_DUEL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '15'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_TINY' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '13'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_SMALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '11'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_STANDARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '9'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_LARGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

UPDATE Worlds
SET NumCitiesTechCostMod = '7'
WHERE Type = 'WORLDSIZE_HUGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='COMMUNITY_CORE_BALANCE' AND Value= 1 );

edit: recent +1 to everything

Neat. So for me (Large map) it would be +9% tech and culture costs per city, yeah?

 

[tu_79]

Now, count the Zulu cities and figure what do they need to get every new tech. Not so shiny now, eh?

 

[merill]

zulu: 11*9 = 99% -> 199% cost
egypt: 6*9 = 54% -> 154% cost

Zulu need 29% more science than you.
You need 23% less science than zulu.

Zulu have 50% more science than you -> quicker research for zulus (by ~15% i think)

 

[tu_79]

zulu: 11*9 = 99% -> 199% cost
egypt: 6*9 = 54% -> 154% cost

Zulu need 29% more science than you.
You need 23% less science than zulu.

Zulu have 50% more science than you -> quicker research for zulus (by ~15% i think)

For Zulu, each turn worths 44/1.99 = 22 to next tech. For Egypt it is 29/1.54 = 18 to next tech. Zulu researches 22% faster.
But that's just until Egypt takes Fraternity. Then, Egypt raw science will be 47, and it's progress to next tech 47/1.54 = 30. Assuming Zulu won't get much more science in between, Egypt will research 36% faster than Zulu.
You didn't take Tradition, so your expected GP rate is the same as Zulu, but every time you'll expend a Great Scientist, it will worth 30% more towards next tech.

A single Zulu spy can ruin all that math. His army knocking at your doors, too.

 

[merill]

44/1.99 = 22.11, 29/1.54 = 18.83, 22.11/18.83 = 1.1742
15 < 17.42 << 22

You didn't take Tradition, so your expected GP rate is the same as Zulu, but every time you'll expend a Great Scientist, it will worth 30% more towards next tech.

I don't understand why. Could you elaborate?

 

[tu_79]

44/1.99 = 22.11, 29/1.54 = 18.83, 22.11/18.83 = 1.1742
15 < 17.42 << 22



I don't understand why. Could you elaborate?

Yep, better to take decimals!

Sorry, I forgot. Great Scientist gives the same amount of science from the last ten turns, so the efficiency should be the same.
The 30% difference (199/154 = 1.29) comes with things that give a fixed amount of science, like scientific National Wonders and some scientific Wonders (and Palace buildings from Tradition). A discrete fixed +5 science worths more the fewer the cities.
But then we could argue that 11 cities yield potentially 83% more raw science than 6 (11/6), even with the penalty that's 64% more science towards techs. But that's assuming they manage to build libraries in time for it to matter and don't lose resources in nuances such as wars, religion spreads and CS courtship. If they keep expanding, their 'potential' research rate is huge, but their cities would be severely underdeveloped.