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Research and Tech tree

Discussion in 'Gedemon's Civilization, a total overhaul project' started by Gedemon, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
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    France
    let's talk science.

    I'm not talking about a specific tech tree yet, but how to progress in a research for a technology.

    I'd like to try blind research again, and adapt the eureka system to something more progressive.

    There have been a lot of discussions on the subject on the forum, here are a few links for reference:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/different-approach-to-science.615544/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-featuring-probability-of-discoveries.522699/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/a-new-model-for-science.522298/


    Early draft for research:
    • multiple fields for research (science, military, production, economy, culture...)
    • prerequisite could be something else than another tech (resource, combat XP, date, ...)
    • research is based on your actions at the beginning of the game, for example:
      • working a plot with wheat/rice give points for pottery
      • working a plot with cattle give points for animal husbandry
      • a city on the coast give points for sailing
    • certain buildings will allow to complete projects to advance in a specific field of research (barracks = military, library = civics/science, workshop = production...)
    • higher cost for research
    • tech diffusion from contact with other civs (depending on relation, distance, trade routes, ...)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  2. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Was very happy to see my post linked and even happier when it looked like my idea inspired the direction you're heading! This mod keeps getting better and better :D

    Since it looks like the research is heading in the direction of my original idea, I want to expand on it a bit more or at least talk about WHY I thought this approach would be good: the main goal was to change the WAY you play depending on what you want to do: currently, advancing in technologies is just about getting more science than anyone else. Having harbors is mostly only for getting great admiral points (for example) and if you wanted to advance in your naval tech, you wouldn't even HAVE to build the harbours or even a single ship: you'd only have to get campuses. With the system that divides techs into difference categories, you really have to focus on the area that you want to pursue: if you want to advance your naval tech, you'd have to earn Military (naval) points. That means building on the coast, making harbours, building ships and FIGHTING with ships. Possibly also having naval trade routes. I think it will add a ton of nuance and diversity to gameplay by encouraging players to build their civ in useful and divergent ways.

    Another idea that I don't THINK I had in that thread was to have a separate list of "inventions" or "innovations" that are tied to techs. Basically, they're supposed to be smaller unlockables that are a lot cheaper than real techs but increases yields, strength or unlock new abilities for units. There are a number of reasons I think innovations are a good idea: with the above example of naval tech, there aren't REALLY that many techs in the naval tech branch, really it's only Sailing, Celestial Navigation, Shipbuilding, Cartography, Square Rigging, [sort of] Steam Power, and a few others, but by steam power you're really in a lot of shared territory. I don't even like steam power as a naval tech because steam-powered boats are merely an innovation of steam power: it was invented originally as a way to pump ground water out of mines and later developed for factories and railways. In fact, steam-ships are really only something you'd expect a naval empire to develop.

    And that's sort of my point and where I'm getting at: some of the broader or more niche applications of techs would be changed to innovations, but we'd also add new innovations for flavour and fun.

    Some notes on innovations: many innovations are designed to be unlockable when you first research the tech. The tech itself obviously has some basic bonuses and units or buildings unlocked, but innovations may be things like an extra point or two on certain buildings or maybe lower management or more efficient operation of another system.

    Some innovations will actually be unlocked much later however, and may require more advanced techs or be a requirement for later techs.

    Here are some examples:
    Mathematics is a tech that unlocks the petra (does it do anything else? I forget, although it really should). An innovation on mathematics (that would be unlocked much later, perhaps requiring banking) might be Calculus, or something else related to e, which was a number worked out by a mathemetician working on infinite interest with respect to banking. Calculus and advanced maths of that sort are clearly more advanced than the sorts of maths referred to in the mathematics tech. They aren't important enough to warrant their own tech but are more flavourful. Calculus could for example improve banks or markets and might be required for economics which requires more complex math.

    But back towards the naval tech angle, innovations could be used to improve the gun-power of ships, their speed, defences or something of that nature. Some way that a military power could invest points WITHIN an era to increase the value of their ships compared to un-invested ships of the same tier. Additionally, some "techs" that we currently have would be more useful as innovations on previous techs: square-rigging is more like an innovation of ship-building or sailing and stirrups are an innovation of horseback riding. Surely, they're important but in this context where innovations exist as improvements in a subset of a broader field, they fit the bill very well.
     
    Knasp likes this.
  3. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    I had some kind of "application" mechanism in my WWII mod, in it the tech tree was replaced by "projects" that were unlocked around specific dates to simulate the tech advancement during the war and unlock new units. It was similar to the normal research, just transposed to cities.

    But it also had other projects, to unlock new units that were upgrade of a previous unit and required a specific amount of combat XP (and also a date for some) from the previous unit. For example you needed to gain enough XP during combat with your Spitfire V before unlocking the Spitfire IX.

    That's a part of what I want to take from R.E.D. WWII and implement in the mod, it has similarities with what you call "innovations" (but in that case were military specific only)

    The tech tree will need an overhaul, but as I said, that come last, once we have all mechanisms defined, to know were to place what and how we should unlock this or that.

    But we can already work with the current techs (and add or modify some) to test those ideas.

    Here is an update to the draft:
    • multiple fields for research (science, military, production, economy, culture...)
    • prerequisite could be something else than another tech (resource, combat XP, date, ...)
      • city on the coast or discovering sea resource unlock sailing for example
      • a technologie that has been developed by another civilizations you have meet can be unlocked without the other prerequisite
        • use a bucket to fill the "unlocker" for that tech faster depending on the relation or spy access level with the other civilization
    • research is based on your actions at the beginning of the game, for example:
      • working a plot with wheat/rice give points for pottery
      • working a plot with cattle give points for animal husbandry
      • a city on the coast give points for sailing
    • science points are distributed each turn in all unlocked tech, independently of their specific fields
    • "field points" are distributed each turn in all unlocked techs related to that field (a tech could be dependent of multiple fields)
    • certain buildings will allow to develop projects to advance in a specific field of research (barracks = military, library = civics/science, workshop = construction...)
    • higher cost for research
    • tech diffusion from contact with other civilizations (depending on relation, distance, trade routes, spying...)
    • applications/innovations are projects depending of a specific tech but with different prerequisite
      • first civilization to find a tech could get a free application/innovation from that tech
      • no "tech diffusion" for those (for an actual example the Manhattan Project is an application of Nuclear Fission, a civilization could potentially get Nuclear Fission from tech diffusion only in the mod, but would have to complete the project to get the application)
      • as for tech, application could be researched faster by developing projects in cities
      • unlike tech, only "field points" are distributed each turn in all unlocked application/innovation of that field, science points aren't used on those

    Now for the application in game, let's use Sailing as an example:

    unlocked by: city on coast or find a maritime resources or have relation with a civilization that has already discovered it
    specific fields : ?
    specific research points: +2/turn for each city on coast, +5 (one time) for each maritime resource discovered
    application/innovation : ?
     
  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    And now, something else, I've compiled most technologies/civics from civ1 to civ6 here:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oa84kibjkjabAiJJpRlGc75lJtgH0ctge6ZUvl1cFJE/edit?usp=sharing

    It's not organized, or just by eras, but I'd like to discuss the potential research fields based on those technologies, for example:
    • Social
    • Academic
    • Military
    • Craftsmanship
    • Naval
    • Economic
    We can't have too many, because some could be useless if they have only a few uses (the "Naval research field" for example will be only used for application/project in the later eras, like "nuclear submarine project" as an application from Rocketry and Nuclear Power, but not directly for Techs)

    The draft for research as a reminder for what I call "tech" and "application":
    Spoiler :

    • multiple fields for research (science, military, production, economy, culture...)
    • prerequisite could be something else than another tech (resource, combat XP, date, ...)
      • city on the coast or discovering sea resource unlock sailing for example
      • a technologie that has been developed by another civilizations you have meet can be unlocked without the other prerequisite
        • use a bucket to fill the "unlocker" for that tech faster depending on the relation or spy access level with the other civilization
    • research is based on your actions at the beginning of the game, for example:
      • working a plot with wheat/rice give points for pottery
      • working a plot with cattle give points for animal husbandry
      • a city on the coast give points for sailing
    • science points are distributed each turn in all unlocked tech, independently of their specific fields
    • "field points" are distributed each turn in all unlocked techs related to that field (a tech could be dependent of multiple fields)
    • certain buildings will allow to develop projects to advance in a specific field of research (barracks = military, library = civics/science, workshop = construction...)
    • higher cost for research
    • tech diffusion from contact with other civilizations (depending on relation, distance, trade routes, spying...)
    • applications/innovations are projects depending of a specific tech but with different prerequisite
      • first civilization to find a tech could get a free application/innovation from that tech
      • no "tech diffusion" for those (for an actual example the Manhattan Project is an application of Nuclear Fission, a civilization could potentially get Nuclear Fission from tech diffusion only in the mod, but would have to complete the project to get the application)
      • as for tech, application could be researched faster by developing projects in cities
      • unlike tech, only "field points" are distributed each turn in all unlocked application/innovation of that field, science points aren't used on those



    On a side note, no mention to faith, religion is something I'd like in the mod, but that's a huge potential overhaul that's not on top in my to do list. In the current development, see religious tech/buildings has social elements.
     
  5. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    A potential tech tree in the form :
    Tech (requirement)

    & = and
    | = or

    I think we can work on that part of the research system already, it's the top level, a general view not linked to specific units, buildings, mechanisms, it's the applications/projects that will link it to the mod later.

    I'm looking for feedback on incoherences, missing techs and help defining the corresponding research fields

    Code:
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = ANCIENT ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Alphabet / Writing
    Animal Husbandry        (cows, sheep, horses)
    Ceremonial Burial
    Warrior Code            (combats XP)
    The Wheel
    Pottery
    Sailing                    (water tiles, sea resources)
    Agriculture                (wheat, rices)
    Herbalism                (plants, wounded)
    Trapping                (deers)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Code of Laws            (Writing)
    Currency                (Writing)
    Mysticism                (Ceremonial Burial)
    Astrology                (Ceremonial Burial)
    Mining                    (Pottery, mineral/metal resources)
    Bronze Working            (Pottery)
    Irrigation                (Agriculture, corresponding resources)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Foreign Trade            (Currency & Code of Laws)
    Polytheism                (Mysticism)
    Military Tradition        (Warrior Code, combats)
    Masonry                    (Pottery & Mining)
    Map Making                (Writing, find land plots: mountains, natural wonders)
    Calendar                (Writing & Astrology)
                                
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = CLASSICAL ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Games and Recreation    (population)
    Philosophy                (Code of Laws & Mysticism, population)
    Monotheism                (Polytheism)
    Military Training        (Military Tradition, combats)
    Recorded History        (Writing, killed units | knowledge of a captured city | gain a level 3 unit)
    Iron Working            (Bronze Working & Mining, Iron)
    Celestial Navigation    (Calendar)
    Horseback Riding        (Military Tradition, Animal Husbandry)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Mathematics                (Calendar | Currency)
    Literacy                (Currency & Philosophy)
    Drama and Poetry        (Games and Recreation)
    Construction            (Masonry)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Paper                    (Literacy | Drama and Poetry | Recorded History)
    Theology                (Monotheism)
    Engineering                (Construction & Mathematics)
    Surgery                    (Herbalism, wounded)
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = MEDIEVAL ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Education                (Paper & Literacy)
    Feudalism                (Military Training & Recorded History)
    Apprenticeship            (Engineering)
    Military Engineering    (Military Training & Engineering)
    Heavy Fortifications    (Engineering)
    Machinery                (Engineering)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Physics                    (Education & Mathematics)
    Civil Service            (Feudalism)
    Guilds                    (Apprenticeship)
    Optics                    (Machinery)
    Medicine                (Education & Surgery, illness)
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Compass                    (Physics & Celestial Navigation)
    Printing Press            (Guilds & Machinery)
    Metal casting            (Physics & Machinery)
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = DISCOVERY ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Nationalism                (Civil Service)
    Diplomatic Service        (Civil Service)
    Banking                    (Guilds)
    Siege tactics            ((Heavy Fortifications | Attacking city with a castle) & Military Engineering)
    Gunpowder                (Metal casting)
    Astronomy                (Optics & Physics & Celestial Navigation)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Humanism                (Medicine)
    Architecture            (Heavy Fortifications)
    Mercantilism            (Banking)
    Magnetism                (Compass)
    Cartography                (Compass & Optics)
    Microbiology            (Medicine & Optics)
    Scientific Method        (Physics & Medicine)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Liberalism                (Humanism)
    Constitution            (Humanism & Nationalism)
    Chemistry                (Scientific Method)
    Mass Production            (Mercantilism & Machinery)
    Theory of Gravity        (Scientific Method & Astronomy)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = INDUSTRIAL ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Natural History            (Cartography & Scientific Method)
    Economics                (Mercantilism & Scientific Method)
    Steel                    (Mass Production & Metal casting)
    Rifling                    (Mass Production & Gunpowder & Metal casting)
    Steam Engine            (Chemistry & Metal casting)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Fertilizer                (Chemistry)
    Electricity                (Magnetism)
    Assembly Lines            (Mass Production & Economics)
    Conscription            (Rifling, Constitution)
    Civil Engineering        (Steam Engine)
    Military Science        (Rifling)
    Vaccine                    (Microbiology & Scientific Method)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Explosives                (Fertilizer & Steel)
    Capitalism                (Liberalism & Economics)
    Communism                (Civil Engineering & Assembly Lines)
    Industrialization        (Assembly Lines & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
    Refining                (Chemistry & (Steam Engine | Electricity))
    Urbanization            (Civil Engineering)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = MACHINE ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Mobilization            (Conscription)
    Replacable Parts        (Industrialization)
    Combustion                (Refining)
    Scorched Earth            (Explosives & Military Science)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Refrigeration            (Industrialization)
    Fascism                    (Mobilization & Industrialization)
    Electronics                (Replacable Parts & Electricity)
    Flight                    (Combustion, Industrialization)
    Ballistics                (Explosives & Military Science)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Atomic Theory            (Electronics & Theory of Gravity)
    Radio                    (Electronics)
    Biotechnology            (Refrigeration)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = ARMS RACE ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Mass Media                (Radio)
    Radar                    (Radio)
    Advanced Flight            (Flight, air combats)
    Advanced Ballistics        (Ballistics, ranged combats)
    Armored Warfare            (armored combats)
    Sonar                    (Radio)
    Plastics                (Combustion & Replacable Parts)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
     
    Combined Arms            (Radio & Armored Warfare & Advanced Flight)
    Antibiotics                (Biotechnology)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Amphibious Warfare        (Combined Arms)
    Nuclear Fission            (Atomic Theory, uranium)
    Jet Engine                (Advanced Flight & Electronics, air combats)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = ATOMIC ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Ecology                    (Natural History)       
    Rocketry                (Jet Engine & Refrigeration)
    Fundamentalism            (Mass Media)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Nuclear Power            (Nuclear Fission)
    Computers                (Electronics)
    Synthetic Materials        (Plastics)
    Guerilla Warfare        (Scorched Earth)
    Genetics                (Biotechnology)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Recycling                (Ecology)
    Miniaturisation            (Computers & Radio)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = INFORMATION ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Telecommunication        (Miniaturisation)
    Satellites                (Miniaturisation & Rocketry)
    Lasers                    (Miniaturisation)
    Composites                (Synthetic Materials)
    Mobile Tactics            (Amphibious Warfare & Guerilla Warfare)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Social Media            (Telecommunication)
    Globalization            (Satellites & Telecommunication)
    Guidance Systems        (Lasers & Telecommunication)
    Eugenism                (Genetics)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Fiber Optics            (Computers & Lasers)   
    Superconductors            (Composites & Refrigeration)
    Stealth                    (Composites & Guidance Systems)
    
    
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    = FUTURE ERA
    ==============================================================================================================================================
    -------
    Tiers 1
    -------
    
    Fusion Power            (Lasers & Superconductors)
    Nanotechnology            (Lasers)
    Genetics Engineering    (Eugenism)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 2
    -------
    
    Artificial Intelligence    (Nanotechnology)
    
    
    -------
    Tiers 3
    -------
    
    Robotics                (Artificial Intelligence & Fusion Power)
    
     
  6. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

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    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I have a bit of experience with ancient technology and history, so I'll throw in my take on this. First off, a few of these looks more like civics than techs. Are we recombining them? If so, there are a number of civics that aren't here, for example the governmental civics.

    Another thing, even though some of these early techs have been core to the civ series, that doesn't necessarily mean they belong there. Animal husbandry and pottery were discovered by various people at different times, but by 10000 BC or so, there were cultures around the world that had developed them. If we're still sticking with the default "4000 BC" start, these don't exactly make sense.

    If anyone has any problems with what I say, feel free to speak up. I'm not an expert, I've just done a bit of research and taken a few university courses. I'm no historian though.
    Spoiler Stuff :

    -While writing was developed somewhere between 3000 and 2500 BC in Sumeria (and later, in Egypt, China and central America) it was far from the norm. Most of the world existed without a form of writing well after 0 AD, adopting or adapting the writing systems of their neighbours. It shouldn't be one of the first techs available.

    -As I mentioned, Animal Husbrandry is between 10 and 12 thousand years old, so that's a separate problem.

    -Ceremonial Burial feels more like a civic than a tech, and is much, much older than this, probably 40 000 years old or more based on archaeological evidence.

    -Warrior Code again feels like a civic rather than a tech.

    -The wheel is pretty good here, although it might be good to require Animal Husbandry or pottery for it. (Whether the wheel was developed for potter's wheels or carts is debated)

    -Sailing is also ancient, there were settlements on the Island of Cyprus ~7000 BC which was only reachable by sea.

    -Agriculture clearly predates nearly all of the other techs as well, being almost necessary for settlement to even occur

    -Herbalism no qualms.

    -Trapping, not exactly how deer are harvested I believe. For smaller game it might make sense.

    Tier 2:

    -Code of Laws feels like a civic again. The earliest attested record of laws that I'm aware of is the Code of Hammurabi c. 1780 BC.

    -Currency is hard to place. The first form of credit and debt established was probably around 2000 BC but coins were not minted until around 700 BC, which is much closer to the classical period.

    -Mysticism also feels more civic-y and again likely predates everything else in the tree by thousands of years

    -Astrology, slightly more techy version of above, but again if you count stone henge (3100 BC) and many other early artifacts, it probably existed well before the scope of the game.

    -I wouldn't say that mining was initially about metal working. The earliest mines were often quarries for extracting stone or for harvesting minerals that were used in pigments. Breaking stone into smaller pieces doesn't really require pottery.

    -Bronze Working or copper working are pretty good. The earliest copper tools probably date to the mid 2000s BC with bronze arriving a few centuries later.

    -Irrigation is older than bronze working for sure. The ancient Sumerians dug trenches to help irrigate their crops from the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. I feel that irrigation and mining are likely related, I've heard some things such as early mining tools began as repurposed tools designed for moving soil and if ancient civilizations are digging water channels, they would likely encounter hard rock they'd need to excavate or move.

    Tier 3:

    -Foreign Trade needs to come way earlier. The ancient sumerians and the indus valley civilization were trading over hundreds of miles by the 2000s BC and the tin trade is what made bronze possible in the following thousand years. The ancient world was a lot more connected than people give it credit for.

    -Polytheism existed much much earlier than this, you only need to reed the myth of Atrahasis from ancient Sumeria to see that, or look at Ancient Egyptian culture.

    -Military Tradition, again civic-like

    -Masonry is probably better suited as a tier 2 tech if mining is moved to tier 1 (although this is debatable)

    -Map Making is classical at the very earliest.

    -Calendar could probably come a lot earlier, and shouldn't require writing. Writing is a much more developed system than is necessary for calendars, and keeping track of the seasons was one of the earliest things that people did when their lives depended on growing crops.

    Classical:

    Tier 1:

    -Games and Recreation - no issues
    -Philosophy - no issues
    -Monotheism - not sure if this is really necessary. Civ 4 had this idea that monotheism is better than polytheism or animism but really they're all the same.
    -MIlitary Training - no issues
    -Recorded hitsory - no issues
    -Iron working - Bronze working should really require mining anyway because copper can't be harvested without a mine in significant enough quantities to allow for anything on an industrial scale.
    -Celestial navigation - and sailing, right?
    -Horseback Riding - probably fine

    Tier 2

    -Mathematics I would say Philosophy and writing
    -Literacy - this is more of a concept than a tech or civic. Do you mean literacy in the population beyond career scribes?
    -Drama and Poetry - probably fine
    -Construction - probably fine

    Tier 3

    -Paper are we talking about papyrus or modern paper? All of Europe was still using very thin and incredibly expensive strips of veal-leather well into the medieval period for paper because there was no better alternative.
    -Theology doesn't require monotheism. You can study a religion or faith without it being Christianity (/other Abrahamic religion)
    -Engineering probably fine
    -Surgery is pretty interesting. It was incredibly unsuccessful until much later and I don't know many successful surgeries until centuries later

    Medieval

    Tier 1:

    -Education not sure on this one. For some reason, I feel like standardized education began in the classical period and was lost until centuries later
    -Feudalism is tricky as well. It really emerged as a consequence of the fall of the Roman empire, but it's probably fine here.
    -Apprenticeship is probably ok
    -MIlitary Engineering was definitely known in the classical world
    -Heavy Fortifications not sure what you mean by this
    -Machinery probably comes later. Windmills certainly weren't developed until around the 12th or 13th centuries. China may have had early machinery around 600 or 700 AD though.

    Tier 2:

    -Physics is much closer to a Renaissance tech than a medieval one- I should note that you don't really have a Renaissance era, you go from medieval to discovery. The medieval period began around 500 AD in Europe and lasted til something like 1400-1500, after which social and political changes ended the systems that were in place the previous thousand years. Major discoveries in physics date after the medieval period.
    -Civil Service - no idea
    -Guilds - probably fine
    -Optics - maybe?
    -Medicine had not really advanced at all by the middle medieval period from the ancient or classical period. A lot of those advances would come later. Note: this is only true if we use the general period referred to as "medieval" which would place any tier 2 medieval tech around 1000 AD. I get the feeling you expected the medieval era to come later.

    Tier 3:
    -Compass maybe. I'm not sure.
    -Printing press fits the time for the very end of the medieval period
    -Metal Casting is hard to place. Bronze and copper had been cast in molds for thousands of years at this point and melting iron or steel was largely impossible for most of the world. Again though, China had developed machine-powered blast furnaces much earlier and it was this that eventually spread to Europe and allowed iron or steel to be cast. Depending on how the system ends up going, it might be better to have Metal Casting or the printing press available earlier, but only under very specific conditions so that only one or two civs are able to get it and the rest learn it from them.

    Discovery era

    Tier 1

    -Gun powder may be better as a medieval tech, as guns or canons were being developed by the 1400s in Europe. Guns were largely what ended the medieval society in Europe.
    The other techs seem fine

    Tier 2
    -Mercantilism was around in the late medieval period throughout the German states and Italy
    -How is magnetism a tech?
    -Microbiology????? Bacteria were OBSERVED in the late 17th century (which should be after tier 2), but there was no understanding of microorganisms until much later.
    -Scientific Method I think comes a bit later

    Tier 3
    -Theory of Gravity if this comes here, Microbiology and Scientific method should come around this time or later.

    Industrial Era

    Tier 1
    These seem ok

    Tier 2
    -Electricity should probably require scientific theory or possibly the steam engine.
    -Vaccines probably come later

    Tier 3

    These seem ok I guess

    Machine Era (interesting title btw)

    Tier 1
    Seem reasonable

    Tier 2
    Electronics are iffy. If you mean radios or telegraphs, they should be much earlier, if you mean anything like a Turing machine, they come later.
    Ballistics are much, much earlier than this.

    Tier 3
    The very earliest computers should be in here somewhere too

    Arms Race era (this name makes sense in the modern world, but without world wars I'm not sure it does)

    Tier 1
    These seem fine

    Tier 2
    Antibiotics come earlier I believe?

    Tier 3
    Radar and Nuclear Fission are not nearly so far apart as this

    Atomic Era

    Tier 1
    Fundamentalism?

    Tier 2
    Ok

    Tier 3
    ok

    Information Era

    Tier 1
    Sound ok

    Tier 2
    Social Media comes way later

    Tier 3

    Seems ok

    Future Era
    Tier 1
    This is no longer history lol
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  7. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
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    Thank you !

    I'll come back on your nicely detailed answer, but before just some additional info on the global design that affects the tech tree in more or less important ways:

    • We're not limited by date, the game could start much earlier, with a potential nomadic start (with moves restricted to a part of the map around the starting position) before settling the first city.
    • Yes, one combined tree for tech and civics, with "culture" or "social" research field points being more important than "science" research field points for civics "techs" progression. Governments/Policies being applications of civics (unlocked by civics or requiring specific additional "projects" to be unlocked), so missing government/policies related civics would have to be added to the tree. Civics of the current civ6 tree could be converted to "application" of another tech/civics of this mod's tree.
    • I'd like the "Eras" to feel less centered on European history, and less tied to "dates", removing it only showing turns count and the actual Era of the most advanced (known - directly or indirectly - to the player) civilization is a possibility
    • Historical Spawn Dates will be integrated to the mod, depending of the above, it could be more of a Historical Spawn Eras things, but the point is that not all civilizations will spawn at the start of the game, and those starting later will start with most of the techs already discovered by other Civilizations in the current game
    • Revolutions will also be part of the mod, Civil Wars will be possible, "global" tech loss could then happen (for example a civilization has found "Education" before the others, fall during a revolution / civil war, the civilizations resulting of the split in a case of civil wars may not start with all techs from the parent civilization, if "Education" is part of the lost techs it will not be "tech diffused" or could be given to newly spawned civilization anymore and will have to be "discovered" again.
     
  8. Laurentinum

    Laurentinum Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    @dunkleosteus

    I'd like to add some of my insights to your feedback, highlighted in brown.

    Spoiler :

    -While writing was developed somewhere between 3000 and 2500 BC in Sumeria (and later, in Egypt, China and central America) it was far from the norm. Most of the world existed without a form of writing well after 0 AD, adopting or adapting the writing systems of their neighbours. It shouldn't be one of the first techs available.

    -As I mentioned, Animal Husbrandry is between 10 and 12 thousand years old, so that's a separate problem.

    -Ceremonial Burial feels more like a civic than a tech, and is much, much older than this, probably 40 000 years old or more based on archaeological evidence. As a basis for more complex religious structures, ceremonial burial works in most cultures, but not all. In Tibet, for example, sky burials occur, where the body is left on a mountaintop to decompose. It would be better if all religious techs are put into their own Religious field, which would be non-linear in the sense that there are dead ends and some techs would require no techs before it, instead being unlocked by other conditions.

    -Warrior Code again feels like a civic rather than a tech. Ethical codes and such seem like an offspring of law codes, so it would make sense to have specialised applications for Code of Laws that can be developed. Warrior Code could be a military-focused development that requires Code of Laws and a sizeable military.

    -The wheel is pretty good here, although it might be good to require Animal Husbandry or pottery for it. (Whether the wheel was developed for potter's wheels or carts is debated) Having the wheel be an application of Pottery first would be better, and then you can make Carts that would be an application that requires the Wheel.

    -Sailing is also ancient, there were settlements on the Island of Cyprus ~7000 BC which was only reachable by sea.

    -Agriculture clearly predates nearly all of the other techs as well, being almost necessary for settlement to even occur It only exists as an industry that is built on a need basis, so the resources requirement is fine. The industrial significance of many of the techs though should warrant them their own Industrial field.

    -Herbalism no qualms.

    -Trapping, not exactly how deer are harvested I believe. For smaller game it might make sense.

    Tier 2:

    -Code of Laws feels like a civic again. The earliest attested record of laws that I'm aware of is the Code of Hammurabi c. 1780 BC. There is actually an even earlier law code, the Code of Ur-Nammu, which dates back to c. 2100 BC - 2050 BC. The concept of laws require something to protect however, so there should be applications put to work here, other than that, the Writing prerequisite is fine.

    -Currency is hard to place. The first form of credit and debt established was probably around 2000 BC but coins were not minted until around 700 BC, which is much closer to the classical period. The first stage of currency grew out of a need of a system to represent the value of commodities, so they used pieces of metal, but this led to an economic collapse as anyone could just steal money, as there was no system in place to protect it. Thus, a currency was only as strong as the military that defended it. This led to the need for coinage, so Gedemon could implement this by making Coinage an application of Currency.

    -Mysticism also feels more civic-y and again likely predates everything else in the tree by thousands of years Placing Mysticism in the 1st Tier of the Religious field will work.

    -Astrology, slightly more techy version of above, but again if you count stone henge (3100 BC) and many other early artifacts, it probably existed well before the scope of the game. Stonehenge has no clear purpose as of yet, so it's risky to associate it with Astrology. In general, astrology came about as a result of the need for a system to practice a belief system that had its roots in celestial objects, so it would make sense for it to be an application that requires Calendar and Mysticism. After all, you don't need a spiritual reason to look at the stars.

    -I wouldn't say that mining was initially about metal working. The earliest mines were often quarries for extracting stone or for harvesting minerals that were used in pigments. Breaking stone into smaller pieces doesn't really require pottery. Having enough mineable resources in an empire's land would be enough of a requirement, and I would put Mining into an Industrial field of its own.

    -Bronze Working or copper working are pretty good. The earliest copper tools probably date to the mid 2000s BC with bronze arriving a few centuries later. Bronze would work as an application of Copper Working that would unlock upon reaching certain conditions, like building enough mines for example. This would be a nice balance between completely random and completely player-controlled.

    -Irrigation is older than bronze working for sure. The ancient Sumerians dug trenches to help irrigate their crops from the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. I feel that irrigation and mining are likely related, I've heard some things such as early mining tools began as repurposed tools designed for moving soil and if ancient civilizations are digging water channels, they would likely encounter hard rock they'd need to excavate or move. Irrigation is a part of the Agriculture industry however, so it can be an application that requires Agriculture and a source of fresh water.

    Tier 3:

    -Foreign Trade needs to come way earlier. The ancient sumerians and the indus valley civilization were trading over hundreds of miles by the 2000s BC and the tin trade is what made bronze possible in the following thousand years. The ancient world was a lot more connected than people give it credit for. Trade is a part of human history and would fare better as something that is integrated into an Economic field. Caravans can be turned into an application that requires the Wheel Application and a trade route that's longer than 30 tiles, for example.

    -Polytheism existed much much earlier than this, you only need to reed the myth of Atrahasis from ancient Sumeria to see that, or look at Ancient Egyptian culture.

    -Military Tradition, again civic-like

    -Masonry is probably better suited as a tier 2 tech if mining is moved to tier 1 (although this is debatable)

    -Map Making is classical at the very earliest.

    -Calendar could probably come a lot earlier, and shouldn't require writing. Writing is a much more developed system than is necessary for calendars, and keeping track of the seasons was one of the earliest things that people did when their lives depended on growing crops. Partly agreed. Early representations of calendars stemmed from agriculture and such, but even writing existed in a rudimentary form used for agriculture. In the large scale of Civilization, it is important to remember that this is on an empire-wide basis, and so calendars must exist as a well-defined system for use. I agree with your suggestion to push Calendar back, but Writing should remain a prerequisite for Calendar.

    Classical:

    Tier 1:

    -Games and Recreation - no issues
    -Philosophy - no issues
    -Monotheism - not sure if this is really necessary. Civ 4 had this idea that monotheism is better than polytheism or animism but really they're all the same.
    -MIlitary Training - no issues
    -Recorded hitsory - no issues
    -Iron working - Bronze working should really require mining anyway because copper can't be harvested without a mine in significant enough quantities to allow for anything on an industrial scale.
    -Celestial navigation - and sailing, right?
    -Horseback Riding - probably fine

    Tier 2

    -Mathematics I would say Philosophy and writing
    -Literacy - this is more of a concept than a tech or civic. Do you mean literacy in the population beyond career scribes?
    -Drama and Poetry - probably fine
    -Construction - probably fine

    Tier 3

    -Paper are we talking about papyrus or modern paper? All of Europe was still using very thin and incredibly expensive strips of veal-leather well into the medieval period for paper because there was no better alternative.
    -Theology doesn't require monotheism. You can study a religion or faith without it being Christianity (/other Abrahamic religion)
    -Engineering probably fine
    -Surgery is pretty interesting. It was incredibly unsuccessful until much later and I don't know many successful surgeries until centuries later

    Medieval

    Tier 1:

    -Education not sure on this one. For some reason, I feel like standardized education began in the classical period and was lost until centuries later
    -Feudalism is tricky as well. It really emerged as a consequence of the fall of the Roman empire, but it's probably fine here.
    -Apprenticeship is probably ok
    -MIlitary Engineering was definitely known in the classical world
    -Heavy Fortifications not sure what you mean by this
    -Machinery probably comes later. Windmills certainly weren't developed until around the 12th or 13th centuries. China may have had early machinery around 600 or 700 AD though.

    Tier 2:

    -Physics is much closer to a Renaissance tech than a medieval one- I should note that you don't really have a Renaissance era, you go from medieval to discovery. The medieval period began around 500 AD in Europe and lasted til something like 1400-1500, after which social and political changes ended the systems that were in place the previous thousand years. Major discoveries in physics date after the medieval period.
    -Civil Service - no idea
    -Guilds - probably fine
    -Optics - maybe?
    -Medicine had not really advanced at all by the middle medieval period from the ancient or classical period. A lot of those advances would come later. Note: this is only true if we use the general period referred to as "medieval" which would place any tier 2 medieval tech around 1000 AD. I get the feeling you expected the medieval era to come later.

    Tier 3:
    -Compass maybe. I'm not sure.
    -Printing press fits the time for the very end of the medieval period
    -Metal Casting is hard to place. Bronze and copper had been cast in molds for thousands of years at this point and melting iron or steel was largely impossible for most of the world. Again though, China had developed machine-powered blast furnaces much earlier and it was this that eventually spread to Europe and allowed iron or steel to be cast. Depending on how the system ends up going, it might be better to have Metal Casting or the printing press available earlier, but only under very specific conditions so that only one or two civs are able to get it and the rest learn it from them.

    Discovery era

    Tier 1

    -Gun powder may be better as a medieval tech, as guns or canons were being developed by the 1400s in Europe. Guns were largely what ended the medieval society in Europe.
    The other techs seem fine

    Tier 2
    -Mercantilism was around in the late medieval period throughout the German states and Italy
    -How is magnetism a tech?
    -Microbiology????? Bacteria were OBSERVED in the late 17th century (which should be after tier 2), but there was no understanding of microorganisms until much later.
    -Scientific Method I think comes a bit later

    Tier 3
    -Theory of Gravity if this comes here, Microbiology and Scientific method should come around this time or later.

    Industrial Era

    Tier 1
    These seem ok

    Tier 2
    -Electricity should probably require scientific theory or possibly the steam engine.
    -Vaccines probably come later

    Tier 3

    These seem ok I guess

    Machine Era (interesting title btw)

    Tier 1
    Seem reasonable

    Tier 2
    Electronics are iffy. If you mean radios or telegraphs, they should be much earlier, if you mean anything like a Turing machine, they come later.
    Ballistics are much, much earlier than this.

    Tier 3
    The very earliest computers should be in here somewhere too

    Arms Race era (this name makes sense in the modern world, but without world wars I'm not sure it does)

    Tier 1
    These seem fine

    Tier 2
    Antibiotics come earlier I believe?

    Tier 3
    Radar and Nuclear Fission are not nearly so far apart as this

    Atomic Era

    Tier 1
    Fundamentalism?

    Tier 2
    Ok

    Tier 3
    ok

    Information Era

    Tier 1
    Sound ok

    Tier 2
    Social Media comes way later

    Tier 3

    Seems ok

    Future Era
    Tier 1
    This is no longer history lol
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  9. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

    Joined:
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    I'm especially interested in civil wars and such. If we're talking about "lost" technologies, perhaps it would be good if some of these things along the way had requirements to maintain. For example, a number of technologies and such that were discovered in the ancient era were lost after the bronze age collapse and rediscovered in the classical era. Again, these were lost when the western Roman empire fell. I know much less about global history than European so I'm afraid I can't give much insight into that aspect, but it would be very interesting if after certain "collapses" if some of your techs became locked again due to a loss of a way to maintain them.

    It would be very interesting if techs had some sort of maintenance like that. Maybe it could be a requirement of how much military you have or how much population, but it could also be simply a maintenance on the number of points you generate. This means if your empire does not continue to grow, you cannot gain new techs eventually because each new tech adds to the maintenance you have. The historical idea here is that all of these ideas must be maintained and passed down. If for example your society invents banking but then collapses and all economic establishments fall out of use, it's likely that over time as you stopped using banks, your people's knowledge of banking would decay. So to maintain all of this knowledge, there's a slight cost per turn. If your civilization fails to pay the upkeep on their technologies, some of the newer ones may begin to decay (not immediately, but if you didn't fix it for a number of turns, eventually you might forget how to use them).

    It would make sense if you didn't have to pay (or maybe pay as much) of this maintenance on techs that were required for other techs, for example if mining is required for bronze working, then maintaining your bronze working is obviously sufficient to maintain your mining (although bronze working would be a little more expensive).
     
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  10. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    187
    Greetings! I've been in the process of starting my own modding project, since I'm longing for a more complex Civilization experience. While browsing the forums, I've found this thread (which I've now read from start to finish). It is exciting to see that you guys are having similar ideas. I'm gonna give your mod a try later today and see what I think.

    Regarding Research trees, science and eras: I've conducted some scholarly (google/wikipedia ;)) research to place relevant information regarding settlements, technologies, resources, food extraction, crafting, culture etc, from about 50,000 BC - 100 AD in a timeline.
    I'll gladly contribute my knowledge and/or ugly excel-sheet to help you shape that part.

    //By the way, I've studied biology and geoscience. So I've got a bunch of ideas on how to change vanilla Civ's simplistic and over-generalised terrain, landscapes and features.


    Moderator Action: All posts above, this one included, have been copied and some may have been edited to fit the topic, but the original (unedited) posts are still available in the main thread - Gedemon
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2017
  11. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    Very interesting concept: Maintenance Cost for Technologies.
    I'd like to add two basic principles that I think could be applied in the game:
    1. If you do not Need a Technology, you will not look for it. IF you ever get it, it will be accidental. Example: dwellers deep in the desert will not develop Boat Building, Sailing, or Naval Architecture. They may develop Celestial Navigation, because it is applicable to navigating both water and sand seas.
    2. If you as a population do not use a Technology, you will, as a population, 'forget' it. Two Examples: during the 'Dark Ages'(500-1000 CE) knowledge of sophisticated banking, trade insurance, and the ability to build 1500 ton capacity Grain-carrying sailing freighters was lost - because with the collapse of the Roman State encompassing a massive long-range 'Free Trade' area, none of those were needed or used any more. On the other hand, Metal Working, Iron Working, and even some fairly sophisticated Metallurgy (the quality of the metal in Gothic swords, while not quite true high-carbon steel, was better than the wrought iron used in Roman swords) remained in use and general knowledge. Iron tools as well as Iron Weapons remained, as far as the archeological evidence suggests, in almost as wide-spread use after the fall of Rome as before - but applications like 14-waterwheel flour mills grinding flour for a population of 10,000+ did not, because there weren't enough concentrations of 10,000+ population to need/use it.

    Therefore, explicit 'Maintenance Costs' should be a Last Resort when the technology is no longer in general use. Further, the actual retaining of Technology not by the general population is usually in the hands of a few Institutions: libraries, monasteries, Palaces providing refuge for scholars and books. A Wonder like the Great Library, therefore, should also provide an automatic Maintenance Cost for any technology already discovered, whether your population in general is using it or not. - until some Barbarian, Religious Fanatic pillages it, of course.

    Failing to have a fat central library, refuge-providing Palace complex with enough power, or monastic institutions, there will be no retaining of unused Technology, and it will have to be relearned, or borrowed (or stolen) from elsewhere.
     
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  12. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Location:
    France
    Thanks, the maintenance cost is a great idea, I've been thinking about how to include it in the mod since @dunkleosteus mentionned it, but I'm still struggling a bit on the design and need feedback (more about that below, see "local knowledge")

    But first, we still need to define the different research fields, and how we gain points in each fields each turns.

    As a reminder, a proposed list of research fields:
    - Social
    - Academic
    - Military
    - Craftsmanship
    - Naval
    - Economic

    And the active/passive (currently available) actions they could be linked to:

    Unit (active)
    - move (explore, goody hut, barbarian camps)
    - attack
    - build improvement
    - clear feature
    - create trade route (trader unit)
    - pillage

    Unit (passive)
    - defend
    - get reinforcement
    - heal wounded
    - sell loot
    - army type/size

    City (active)
    - construction (buildings, units, projects)
    - select working tiles

    City (passive)
    - defend
    - collect resources
    - use resources
    - trade routes
    - number cities / sizes
    - buildings types

    Government (active)
    - change government
    - change policies

    Government (passive)
    - current policies

    Diplomacy (active)
    - declare war
    - make peace
    - trade open border
    - declaration of friendship
    - denounce
    - make an alliance
    - make a defensive pact

    Diplomacy (passive)
    - relation level

    What fields/actions could be added ?
    or should be removed ?

    And now, what about implementing "local knowledge" ?

    In the Civilization serie, all science buildings in every cities of a player, wherever they are, contribute to a global research pool, as if telecommunications were available since 2000BC.

    Linked to dunkleosteus idea of maintenance cost, maybe we could set all things related to research at the city level instead of the civilization level, until the "Telecommunication" technology is acquired.

    So, based on your feedback in the thread, a possible design draft:

    All cities searching separately:
    - each city has its own research pool
    - an "external knowledge" value is calculated from the mod's trade routes to cities (internal or foreign) that are researching or already knowing the same technology, based on the trade route efficiency.
    - once CityResearchPool + CalculatedExternalKnowledge > TechCost the city gain access to the Technology

    Tech Maintenance
    - city maintenance cost is higher if external knowledge value is low, not needed if external knowledge value is high
    - start decaying after x turns without using the related application
    - only the top tech in a line stat decaying (ie no decay to Bronze Working if the city has access to Iron Working)
    - remove point to a research each turn if maintenance cost > city yield
    - remove local technology access if less than x% of its total research cost left
    - some buildings (Palace, Library, etc...) lower or remove tech maintenance
    - some other prevent the start of the decay as they are applications of a technology, if they are used (ie: Iron working if there is a Blacksmith using Iron)

    Units knowledge
    - field points are sent back to a city using supply line
    - accumulate points when no supply line available, send them all at once when a suply line is found to a city
     
  13. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Location:
    north of Steilacoom, WA
    I'm going to split up my comments, because I'm going to be posting on a couple of very different ideas.

    First, on the Research Fields, might I suggest that the Tech "Tree' be divided into 'Technologies' and (for want of a better word) 'Applications'. Technologies are Basic Research and Knowledge Advancement: Principles of the Wheel, Bronze-Working, Writing, Electricity.
    Applications are specific things you can do with that Knowledge, and therefore give you the Game Elements: Units, Buildings, Production, Trade Goods, etc.
    This means that it is the Applications that could be differentiated by area: Military, Naval, Economic, etc.

    For Example:
    Agriculture - is a basic Knowledge, and should be a/the starting 'Tech' for most (but not necessarily All) Civs. Assuming, for convenience, that each Technology averages three different Applications, then the Applications of Pottery could be:
    Irrigation - An Economic Research, which allows you to:
    .....Clear Marsh tiles
    ..... Produce +1 Food on Desert or Plains Tiles next to River or Lake
    ..... Provides a Eureka: for Technology: Writing
    Selective Plant Breeding - An Academic Research, which allows:
    .....Reveals Potato and Rice Resources
    .....Reduces Production Cost of Archers by 20%
    ..... Provides a Eureka: for Technology: Agricultural Innovation
    Fermentation - A Craftsmanship Research, which allows:
    .....Grain, Rice, Potato, Grape OR Maize Resource provides + 1 Amenity (Wine or Beer!)
    .....Sheep, Cattle or Bison Resource provides +1 Production (tanned leather)
    .....Provides a Eureka: for Technology: Pottery

    Need = Research, so, for instance, having basic Agriculture and a lot of Marsh Tiles (Potential Rice Resource) would provide a bonus to researching Irrigation AND Selective Plant Breeding, while Agriculture and Sheep and/or Cattle would provide a Bonus for Fermentation to make better use of those hides...

    Some Technologies could lead in very different directions depending on their Applications:
    Pottery - a basic Knowledge, and also potential a starting Tech since some peoples were firing clay up to 5000 years before the nominal Start of Game
    Applications:
    Fired Bricks - a Craftsmanship Research, gives a bonus to constructing Buildings and a Eureka for Architecture
    Decorated Ceramics - an Economic Research, because Decorated Ceramics are a Trade Good and an Amenity, and a Eureka for Porcelain and (eventually) Advanced Pigments and Composite Materials
    Kilns - an Academic Research, which is Required to develop Bronze Working, Metal Casting and other 'advanced' metal working.

    And some Applications would 'bridge', enhance, or require Two or more other Technologies, for example, an Application of The Wheel would be, if you already have Pottery, the Potter's Wheel, an Economic Research because it allows mass-produced Pottery for Trade or Export, and combined with Decorated Ceramics produces a very High Value Trade Good and Amenity. (Examples, of course, are Cinese Porcelains, but also Greek Red and Black Ware pottery found all the way up to the Baltic Sea in antiquity)
     
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  14. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Location:
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    The ability of a Unit to do certain things is directly linked to the Tech Tree: active ability to Build Improvement, Clear Feature, or Create Trade Route, and the passive Size and Type of 'Army' and ease and ability to 'Sell Loot' (If there is no established mechanism for this, historically, most of the Loot is Lost - thrown away after the troops have carried it a short distance from the sacked city or battlefield and left to rot)

    The influence on acquiring knowledge of some actions are directly related to doing them: pillaging, selling Loot, exploring barbarian camps or goodie huts - all potentially bring your 'Civilization' in contact with New Ideas and Devices.

    The Influence of other actions is in the Desire or Need to do things: Attack (more effectively), build Improvements, clear features, create Trade Routes, obtain reinforcements or heal your wounded, build a larger sized army.

    Therefore, while some activity in the first category can be directly related to the number of times you do it, the second category is based on in-game situation: how many tiles you have whose Resources can only be accumulated with a specific Improvement, how often your 'army' has to get reinforcements, how many wounded need to be healed, or loot needs to be efficiently distributed/sold.

    Even more so for the city or Civilization/government, Need = Research, and some Needs are much more Influential than others. At the top of the Influence List would be Food (collecting/exploiting certain Resources) Defense/Safety and 'Happiness' (or 'Pursuit of Happiness', to use the very astute Founding Fathers phrase). Relating these to the list above:

    Food:
    collect resources
    use resources
    trade routes
    Defense:
    defend
    change (Government) policies
    make peace
    declaration of Friendship
    make an alliance
    make a defensive pact
    'Happiness'
    collect resources
    use resources
    building types
    trade routes
    Government policies

    Obviously, the type of goods traded, type of buildings built, type of resources collected and exploited, type of Government policies are all-important, but even more important is the Need.
    If people are not eating enough, Food and whatever obtains more food is All Important.
    If people are afraid any dawn will bring raiders or enemies pouring through the city gates, Defense is all-important.
    After both of those, you can worry about being 'Happy'.

    So, the actual, turn-by-turn influence of most of these factors is going to vary, sometimes wildly, and in some cases the variance is not based on Objective Reality, but on Perception. For instance, a city surrounded by stout stone Medieval Walls appears to be 'Defended' - until the first Bombard shows up outside the wall, then Defense suddenly becomes all-important. Everyone may think they are Happy until they discover that the neighboring Civilization has Decorated Ceramics and they are still making do with hand-fired clay pots.
    That means, these influences on Research are going to be Relative, not Absolute, and therefore much more complicated to code...
     
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  15. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    It never made sense in previous Civ games that the same knowledge was equally understood, known and applied throughout all the cities of a single Civilization, especially when communication for all but the last two centuries has been anything but instantaneous, or even simple and quick, and the Need to apply knowledge varied so widely in different situations.

    The change from City Level to Civ (or World) level for Research and Maintaining ('Remembering') of Research is not absolute, it changes with several technologies:

    Writing. - Once knowledge can be preserved physically instead of entirely through individual memory, it is much, much easier to disseminate and preserve.
    Printing Press - or its equivalent, because it is actually a combination of Writing, Type, Paper, and Ink, or Acceptable Substitutes for an or all of those. It is not widely known, but after The Bible, the mass of printed books turned out in the 15th and 16th centuries in Europe were Non-Fiction Manuals - on agriculture, medicine, crafts, mechanics, engineering - all sorts of 'useful' knowledge. Therefore, the printed book/folio was the second huge increase in the dissemination and preservation of knowledge and 'Technology'.
    Powered Press - another 'Tech' not usually appreciated, but in the early 19th century, the application of Steam Power to mechanized printing presses brought the Mass-Produced magazine, book, and daily newspaper, and another huge increase in the spread of knowledge. In fact, after the middle of the 19th century, you don't have 'exclusive' pure research any more, only specific Applications: any new discovery in Chemistry will be published in multiple languages in journals and books within (in game terms) a single Turn, but the Application of that technology in Medicine or smokeless powder firearms may be a Trade Secret unique to, say, German Pharmaceutical Firms (Hoechst = aspirin) or European/North American Civilizations with the factories to produce precision firearms (Remington, Colt, Mauser, Enfield, etc)
    Telegraph/Radio - these 'communications' technologies were more important for spreading news, or ephemeral information, than for distributing basic scientific or technical Knowledge. As far as I know, nobody ever tried to send a complete Chemistry textbook by telegraph.
    Telecommunications - in the last third of the 20th century, electrical/electronic communications Did make a huge difference: teletypes and teleprinters, then networked computers and finally satellite-connected solid-state devices from computer to cell phone meant virtually any information could be sent anywhere in seconds, preserved for study, and accessed almost anywhere.

    Which all means that, as the game progresses, it gets much harder to 'forget' or lose Technology and Applications of that technology - the information and techniques are increasingly widely spread and increasingly easy to access. Even the relatively few hand-written books and scrolls of the ancient world were only partially lost in the so-called 'dark age' interval. Aside from the working 'practical' knowledge used all the time throughout that period (metal-working, agricultural, craft, and similar techniques) and even improved during that time, a great deal of 'theoretical' knowledge or Social Knowledge not immediately applied was also preserved (Archimedes, Aristotle, Plato, Marcus Aurelius, etc). After that, it just got easier and easier...
     
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  16. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    @Gedemon: Is it possible to unlock the same unit, building, improvement, resource etc by several technologies? Could you for example have several techs/civics or even a city project which all could reveal an Iron resource, and whichever is researched first will reveal it?
    Or put in a different way, can we have parallel / separate technology lines?

    I agree about the tech implications but I also think your point raises an interesting idea regarding cities. Establishing a large empire and wealthy developed cities should require investments, more planning and management. It shouldn't just take more time to build large and highly-developed cities and then simply having to pay a higher monetary upkeep. I mean above all it should be more difficult and require more actions to maintain your sprawling cities and large empire. Especially since larger cities are more dependent on food imports.

    All of those sound like they could work, and I suppose that Civics are included in these categories so you could call it a Development tree. The differentiation of Social, Craftsmanship and Economic isn't clear to me because crafting is usually (always?) tied to trading, and therefore Economic. Establishing a system of governors / tax collectors is Economic in a sense, but it's a result of Social organization: i.e. laws governing property, theft, rights of nobles, duties to the ruler/state, privileges of vassals etc.
    Removing the Economical parts from the Social category would seem to render the category more hollow or abstract. Social organization should be related to food production, demographics and economy in many ways. So maybe remove the Social category and put Governments/policies as a result from other research fields, as a byproduct, or simply as Applications/Projects (or triggered by demographics etc). I guess Economics could be replaced by a Food / "Resource extraction" category.

    Sounds like a good starting point. Especially if combined with Boris feedback on need/demand.

    I take it you mean that Applications shouldn't be simply City-projects but rather more automatic or spontaneous developments in the City unlocked by the Tech. How do you keep track of Applications? Should there be a progress bar of +X per turn, until reaching the required sum. Or do you envision it to be more random, and unknown. For example: Researching Pottery could give access to more advanced and valuable ceramics, but the player has no idea if and when such an application would materialise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  17. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    When I was originally thinking about this I was not contemplating a Undirected Research system, but rather that each Technology would have 3 - 4 Applications, that each Application would take about half as long to research as a Technology on the same level, and that you could research One Technology and One Application at the same time - making it necessary for a player/Civ to prioritize their research into Applications, which is where most of the specific Buildings, Improvement, Units, and other Advances would accumulate.

    With Undirected Research, the achieving of a specific Application would Usually be not precisely predictable, but it wouldn't be completely random, either. For example, if you have discovered Pottery, AND you have discovered The Wheel AND you have a Trade Route AND your civilization has something like Craftsmanship (which I define as Individuals Using Special Skills and crafts to trade for food rather than having to grow it themselves), then the Potter's Wheel Application of Pottery is going to pretty much a certainty within a very few turns: you have all the physical, social and technological prerequisites, and you have a Need (Trade Routes needing a Trade Good to buy/sell and Craftsmen needing something to make and sell/barter for their livelihood).

    In my conception, Need would usually be the most important Accelerator for Research.
    For instance, you might have (somehow) researched Woodworking and have (trade) access to Timber and have sheep and cattle from which to weave leather or cloth Sails, but none of that is going to help you much to develop Sailing if your entire civilization is in a desert away from the coast - you have absolutely no Need for Sailing. You might develop Celestial Navigation, to avoid getting lost in the desert, but for regular trade/travel that is a less-critical Need - Nice To Have, but not Necessary when you can blaze trails, mark routes on the ground, and even build roads - none of which you can do at sea.
    IF, on the other hand, you are Desert Raiders making a good thing out of swooping in on your neighbors' territory, Celestial Navigation is going to be easier to get, because you Need to be able to traverse the desert and reach your destination by Surprise, not by a Marked Route.

    Instead of the current Single Route to each Technology and one or two possible Eurekas per Tech, I contemplate each Application and Technology having several routes leading to it and numerous different combinations that provide 'Accelerators' to Research. The Positions, Resources, Policies, Terrain, Climate, and relationships to other Civs, City States, Barbarians, etc. should all heavily impact how your Civ develops.

    There are also ways to Specify Development. The most obvious is the modern Research Lab or National Wonders like Bell Labs, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, DARPA, etc. However, there are much earlier Buildings that have a similar purpose. My personal favorite for a Wonder That Has Been Missing From Civ Games For Too Long would be Dionysius' Workshop, a 'Think Tank' of engineers established by the Tyrant of Syracuse in the 4th Century BCE. That single Establishment developed the Quadririme, Torsion Catapult, and Crossbow. In other cases, the specific Need of a ruler could send Research into very specific directions. The Egyptians got very, very skilled at stonework and stone-moving, stone-carving and quarrying, because every single ruler of Egypt needed a massive stone Monument, Pyramid, or Tomb, and that Need persisted for thousands of years.
     
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  18. Knasp

    Knasp Chieftain

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    How about unequal development? In the vanilla game(s) they have everything balanced so that no matter where in the world you start, or which resources you have access to, you develop at a similar pace.

    In reality all the people living outside Eurasia didn't develop sedentary agriculture and/or metallurgy, at least not at the same rate, and some peoples still lived as hunter/gatherers when the Europeans showed up.
    While you could argue that Civs who don't invest in Campuses/Science will fall behind, it ignores the fact that climate, geography and biology have played a deciding role when it comes to development.

    There have been undeniable advantages to living on a large continent with a great extent of suitable climate, having more species of social animals that live in flocks/herds to domesticate, floodplains and hills in a semi-arid/mediterranean climate that enables easier agriculture.

    The american soils in the Midwest and California were well suited for agriculture before Europeans colonised, but the natives didn't have access to the plentiful and suitable Eurasian species.

    Game-wise
    Now I realise that many people would be frustrated that they would be limited by their starting location, and it would surely be unbalanced as a game.

    My suggestion would then be to either alter the victory conditions and development paths to reflect these inequalities and difficulties.
    Or since we have a random map generator, we could assign all Civs the necessary (minimum) resources needed for development, regardless of start locations. Basically all Civs would be placed in a "balanced" world.
    Of course the fallback solution would be to just assume that every Civ has the right prerequisites, without making any changes to the game and that would keep the standard Civ formula of Generic development.

    All research fields except those relating to culture, and social organizations/social order, should primarily be spread through trade routes, roads, migrations, armies, etc. The movement of people, goods and particularly having more advanced neighbors should increase the rate of development. Once a particular crop was domesticated and saw use, it is very rare that anyone would try domesticating the wild species again. People don't start from scratch or reinvent the wheel, they rather copy and modify that which already exist.

    In the game you could have Applications, like Boris described, to work similar to Wonders. The first Civ that comes up with an application, will slow or stop similar efforts, but the application will be spread to their neighbours, so long as it is useful/applicable in their neighbours Civ or regarded top secret.
    For example: the development of logging techniques aren't very useful if the neighbouring Civ lives in a more arid climate without much forests.

    - Academic field
    I take this to mean something like "Research without direct application" or simply "Knowledge that requires educated specialists/experts".

    Academic knowledge should be rewarded the richer your population is and their access to education, i.e. the greater the portion of urban populations and wealthier classes. A lot of famous scientists were born into a wealthy family or were financed by some kind of mentor/King etc.
    The rate of academic research is mostly dependent on exploration and contact with new/exotic things. Things that begs explanations.
    And expanding on that topic, I'd suggest that religious institutions should be tightly interwoven with Academic knowledge, because many early philosophers/scientists saw it as their mission to explain the world as the creation of their respective dieties.
    They developed intricate philosophies that for example ascribed Geometry, and mathematical concepts, a religious significance. This early connection between religion and philosophy/science/cademic studies was due to the fact that preists were among the first who had the privilege to learn to read and write. The official reason being to copy and interpret the religious texts, but gathering and safeguarding knowledge was high on the agenda.

    The method of empiricism wasn't firmly established until the 1500-1600s and the modern scientific method of hypothesis testing following a more rigorous methodology encouraging independent verification and peer-review slowly grew out of these earlier traditions of acquiring knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  19. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thanks !

    I'm going to merge your suggestions and the "local knowledge" with the current design (cf post #4)

    @Knasp "parallel / separate technology lines" are possible, we're completely replacing the Civ6 research mechanism.

    The coding limitation is that I'm not going to hardcode the complete tech/development tree (ie if this specific unit does this then add points to that specific research) but relations between tables (if action A is made by an unit then collect x points of this research field that will be applied to tech/applications related to that field)

    That means I need to list the possible actions (or needs), the possible research field, the tech/application requirements, but won't do special cases.

    A tech/application could belong to multiple research field BTW.

    And "unequal development" is mandatory for the mod as we're going to have different spawning dates for Civilizations, tech/application diffusion is a part of the whole design in that context to prevent runaway civs.
     
  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    The current 'state of the research' makes your point, but in a slightly different way. There is now evidence that agriculture in some form in some areas developed in the so-called 'New World' just about as early as it did in the 'Old World'. This is still in debate, but it means that the 'established' temporal relationship between the two hemispheres in 'tech' development is open to question in some fields.

    What is not open to question is that the Americas lacked specific resources: draft animals like horses and various breeds of cattle, that enabled them to use the wheel for efficient transport, and pull plows and therefore develop 'broad field' agriculture. In contrast, however, (see C. Mann's book 1491) there is strong evidence that the Native Americans developed entirely new forms of 'agriculture' not developed anywhere in the 'Old World': cultivating forests and jungle for useful trees (berries, fruits, bark, etc), planting forests and jungles and manufacturing meadows and glades to introduce useful animals (a large percentage of the trees in the Amazon Rain Forest do not show a natural distribution pattern: they were planted! - and when the Europeans arrived, there was a string of open grazing areas from the midwest eastwards artificially created to allow large game animals like Bison and Moose to range as far east and south as central Pennsylvania - NOT the natural environment for either animal!).

    Therefore, a great example of Unequal Development is that, lacking one resource, an entirely viable alternative was developed, using an entirely different way of exploiting the terrain.

    BUT the American example indicates that there are Alternative Resources and ways of exploiting them that can be used to the Game Advantage. IF you don't have draft animals, you may have the Unique Resource of Potato or Maize that can be grown without the Broad Field techniques that require draft-drawn plows. IF you don't have the right Cereals upon which to base your agriculture, you can 'cultivate' the forested areas - the California natives planted oak groves, which the Spanish thought were 'natural' - they weren't, because the natives had learned how to process acorns to make a flour for a bread-substitute as the basis for their 'agriculture', which involved planting and 'cultivating' the trees.

    For example, in my Tech/Application model:
    Technology: Agriculture - a possible Starting Technology
    Applications:
    .....Irrigation
    .....Selective Plant Breeding
    .....Fermentation
    .....Forest/Rainforest Cultivation
    NOT Available if Horses or Cattle are available.
    Allows Improvement: Managed Forest, on any Forest or Rainforest tile
    - allows all units to move through the tile without Forest restrictions,
    - +2 Food from the Forest/Rainforest tile

    The modern conceptualization of Religion as Opposed to Science is just that: modern. Some of the earliest primary schools teaching literacy were connected to and sponsored by the Temples, because Temple Scribes were required to keep track of religious teaching, record tithes and other contributions, and through Astronomical and other 'calendrical' knowledge, keep track of Religious Festivals and Events.

    Also, the access to and spread of literacy/knowledge depends both on general affluence amongst the population and also on Social or Religious Policies. One example that I posted elsewhere was the Scottish Presbyterian Kirk requirement that all people should be able to read the bible for themselves, which they established 'Kirk Schools' which in turn meant that the entire population - men AND women - in Scotland were literate by the late Renaissance. This gave Scotland a mighty Head Start when the Industrial Age started: adults in Scotland could Read the Instructions, and write new ones, and build, design, and repair new machines. The 'Scottish Engineer' became a stereotype because such people were Real.

    Of course, examples like this one also point up that Social Policies to 'enhance' Scientific Progress, until the advent of 'universal' primary schooling starting in the 18th century (as a direct result of the requirement for 'industrial' workers to Read The Instructions), had results the were not intended, but an Unexpected Consequence, and something that Happens to your Civ, not planned.
     

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