Research Rate Benchmarks

[Yeosol]

I just moved up to monarch difficulty and am having some trouble keeping up with the AI's research. I find I can do ok if the tech leader AI is on my continent. However if it's on the other I end up getting up to 10 or so behind by the time I make fist contact/they beat me to Lib. I'm just not used to the faster rate of research.

Could anyone who plays monarch give me some ballpark figures of where my research should be at? Like X by 1AD Y by 500AD etc. This would be really helpful

 

[foobarred]

I'm playing on Emperor and asked the exact same question. A lot of it is influenced by the map.

Check out this current thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273971

 

[dubrown]

The "No tech brokering" option is helping this a little. Some AIs will still be research monsters but not all of them. Usually turning of trading techs completely plays in favour of the Human. But then, you loose a fun part of the game that way.

Other than that it's only to be more careful with your economy. City specialisation is even more important. What type of economy are you running, are you setting up efficient cities etc. There's plenty of threads dealing with how to run an economy so browse a few.

 

[Leventis]

This question has been asked many times on these forums so there's plenty of other threads you might want to look at. One thing I'll say is just remember that on the higher difficulties the AI will almost always have a tech lead at the start; it's then up to you to catch up and eventually better cities, larger empire, and smarter play more than compensate for the AI bonuses and you can overtake them in the AD era. The key is not to panic, but realise that in time you will be ahead if you play your cards right. This might mean weakening a tech leader early on, and certainly being aggressive in your tech trading.

 

[Bleys]

I started a thread like this once, asking for more definitive numbers to "shoot for" as opposed to an arbitrary % on a slider (100% of 10 != 20% of 200, for example), but the general response I got was "it depends, are you keeping up with the AIs, and able to broker your own research to get more bang for your beakers through trades".

Once you start to get into the higher levels, trading becomes a key component of research. Lets face it, the AIs have some pretty predictable teching patterns. By using your beakers on "offside" lines that still accomplish a strong goal, you can effectively double or triple your beaker "output". Aesthetics (and then Lit) is a good example of this. The AIs tend to delay that line quite a bit, which allows the Human player to tech it, achieve a solid goal (building the Great Library), and then broker those techs for the ones they skipped. If you dont build the Shwedagon Paya, the AI will put a farily high value on Aesthetics.

So the answer to your question is "It depends". If you are teching at a reasonable pace with the AI, and able to trade your way to equality every now and then, then you have enough beakers. If you find yourself falling well behind, and unable to even research a decent trade-bait tech, then you need to look for more beakers, be it quicker libraries and Scientist specialists, or more commerce from tiles to convert to beakers.

Sucky answer, isnt it, LOL, thats what I thought when I made a thread like this, but as you play, you will find out how true it really is. Here are some tips to helping you maintain tech parity with the AI, especially at Monarch (my preferred level):

Build the Oracle. Yes, it costs time and hammers, but generally you can take a fairly expensive tech from it that the AI places a high value on. CoL, MC, and Monarchy are all fairly prized by the AI. Shoot for one of them, and you effectively get a multiple of techs from this single Wonder.

Build Libraries ASAP in high-food cities, and run a scientist or 2. Even if you have no intention of getting a GP in that city, you can still help your cause quite a bit early in the game with a bunch of scientists. There is a delay in cottages where they kind of suck, but still need to be worked if possible. Scientists can help you get over this gap.

Trade it once, trade it around. This is pretty key. When you look at the tech window in the Diplomacy screen, see which tech that a bunch of AIs dont have, and trade it to a bunch of them in a single turn. This prevents you from having the "trickle down" effect of trading a tech to 1 AI, and having him trade it to all his buddies, thus diminishing the value of it to you. If your going to trade CoL, your better off trading it to a few AIs for backfill, even if the deals are bad, because otherwise, the AI you traded it to will be stronger from his own trading.

For actual, hard, target numbers, I suggest you look through the various RPC and series games, and get an idea of where the "good" and "poor" lines are. There are series and RPCs being run from all levels, Noble to Deity, and a quick check of screenshots in those reports, and how THEY were doing with those Beakers per Turn, can give you a good idea of the variables involved. Another great place to get strong tech-rate info is reading the Succession Games. They also run from Noble to Deity, and they are generally played at a stronger "level" of intensity, and players try to focus on every speck of micromanagement they can in their turnsets.

 

[Dirk1302]

"It depends" is correct of course.But i do use some science benchmarks for immortal. Keep in mind that it is indeed very situational and the numbers i give here are a very rough yardstick. Also i've never written the numbers down so from memory:

1000 BC: 20-30 beakers/turn
1 AD: 40-50 beakers/turn (some early cottages begin to produce, scientists set to work in a few cities)
500 AD: 100-150 beakers/turn (typically currency and CS make a big difference here, also GL)
1000 AD: 200-250 beakers/turn (Some infra, Universities)
1200 AD: 350-500 beakers/turn (PP and matured cottages)
1500 AD: 700-900 beakers/turn (more Infra and Oxford completed,siwtch to free speech)
1700 AD: 1200 + beakers/turn (Some cities make wealth, more infra)
1800 AD: close to 2K/turn (alot of cities make wealth,more infra, laboratories)

More than the marges i give here is certainly good, less a bit problematic especially in the later stages of the game.

These numbers concern a peaceful game if not then:

About 1200 AD i'm often building up to a war at this stage, if i have all the military techs i need then research can be far less. Emphasis will be on working workshops/farms.

About 1500 AD, i'm often in a war now so research'll be far less in this case.

If i went to a renaissance war i typically have 2.5k/turn around 1800 to catch up.

Isolated start the early game numbers are less than i give here but you catch up once astro's in especially if you've built GLH which you should when isolated.

Probably on Monarch you need to have approximately 70-80% of the numbers i gave. I don't know exactly how much bonuses the Ai gets on Monarch vs Immortal.

 

[r_rolo1]

Bleys, it is not proper internet etiquette to refer to a thread without giving the link as well

I concur with what Bleys said, but I wanted to give one more advice:

- Beeline hard, even if you do not plan to trade: There is a discount to researching techs that other civs already have. This means that is far cheaper to research a tech that no one has and then to research a tech that everyone has ( highly discounted )than to research both techs while everyone is researching them as well ( not discounted ). If you don't believe me, focus espionage in a backwards civ in the late game until you see what they are researching and then check the research speed.....

Of course you need to balance this with your own tech necessities

 

[pi-r8]

I just don't see how you can give fixed numbers, because it depends sooo much on the particular game. For example, if all the AIs are warmongers than of course they'll tech a lot slower than in a peaceful game, and so you will too. Likewise, a game with more land will lead to faster teching, at least after the extra land gets settled.

 

[JBossch]

It is certainly true that the map, the difficulty, and the AIs involved can mean that a "good" tech rate can be radically different from game to game. For example, in a recent game I built the G. Lighthouse and ToA on a big-small map and couldn't believe how much money I had. For ages I thought the game was in the bag because of the ridiculous amounts of commerce I was converting to tech. Only problem was, the AIs were Darius, Willem, and Mansa among others. Mansa tech-whored with his buddies and when his millions of cottages matured he was unstoppable. When my war bogged down with outdated weapons I quit. The point is, my massive early tech rate blinded me to the fact that I had sorta crappy land and not enough hammers to build a military. The AIs ended up teching faster than I have ever before seen.

That said, Dirk's benchmarks seem reasonable. If pressed, I would put up similar numbers for immortal, except maybe a little higher in the early stages (by using SE usually) and a bit lower in the later stages. The intended victory condition is a huge factor as well. If going for a spaceship then you need some serious tech late-game. One benchmark I use is about 1200+ tech at 1800AD (with potential for more) if I am planning on building the SS. However, I usually prefer domination whenever possible so I may be doing far worse. In that situation I am content with keeping up in military techs and backtrading with my vassals for other crap.

 

[Dirk1302]

^ The numbers i gave were indeed meant for a space win, otherwise your numbers late game can be lower. Reasons my early techrate is relatively low is that i usually go out of my way blocking as much land as possible, building lots of workers afterwards. I tend to rely on cottages somewhat more than specialists and these take time to mature. Due to all this I'm often late with the academy in capital, maybe something i should work on.

 

[Yeosol]

Thanks a lot for the impute guys. I agree it does always depend. Some games an AI will just get too good of lands or too many wonders and take off, or world war could stagnate everyones economy. However I was looking for an 'average' which I got.
The point was to aim for a middle ground so if an AI on another Island is doing well when I meet up with them I'm only a little behind. There are ways to increase your research when you really have too (building it, etc) and was just looking for an idea of when I might be far enough behind to have to start doing those things.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

other important reasons why I find a good research can vary between... dunno x and even 3x:

- the ais have cash; then you can grab some when trading techs(obviously, you should almost always trade in a way you grab their cash too...). That'll keep your research afloat on negative for quite a while mid game. If they're cash poor... or you need to drop a tech since you lost monopoly and you envision it'll be traded... and the ais don't have cash... well, that's life... but your tech rate will be much slower then in the same scenario, but ai with cash on them.
- diplo; with good relations you should get a fairly good gpt for the resources you're trading. With yuckie diplo... less gpt available, less cash, less deficit research...
- finally, and most important: you trade, or you bribe... If you bribe and manage to get everyone annoyed with everyone, your tech rate can as well be 1/3rd of what should be in a peaceful game... Since they won't trade between each other and you'll probably be the interface you can sit back and relax.