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Research rate in the early game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by macabre, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. DoubleCheck

    DoubleCheck Chieftain

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    Here's my shot at it. Not great, but I played through pretty quickly. I just chariot rushed Toku and the Ethiopians. I'm assuming they're the only ones on my continent. Give me a few more turns and I think I'd whip up a good infrastructure with the addition of some cities.

    One thing I noticed is that the barbs were pretty numerous. Did you turn on raging barbs?

    Any comments would be appreciated.

    Edit: I played a bit further in and here's what I came up with. After having made contact with the other continent, I saw that I could pretty easily pull off a domination or space victory (almost 1000 points and a good 10+ techs ahead). So I guess that means my start wasn't totally bad. I'd like to see how other people ended up at about this time.

    View attachment AutoSave_AD-1580.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  2. Ignorant Teacher

    Ignorant Teacher Emperor

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    Doublecheck
    You're in a very good position, but I'd like to make two remarks about your game:

    1- Free Religion ASAP!
    2- Settle the rest of the continent ASAP!

    kinghippo423, I played your save a little. I don't have 100:science: in 1AD (I actually have 38 :lol:), but I'm 3 turns from completing the Great Library in Thebes, after that you just have to build the NE there and swim in the sea of GS that will come. (Also built the Parthenon in Memphis). I've secured a good enough chunck of land that can take you easy until the Renaissance. (Can do wars sooner if you feel like). This is the land (at least part of it):
    Spoiler :


    You can also check another game of mine where I only had 81:science: in 100AD in the thread I started a few days ago. In 1380AD, this is the tech situation:
    Spoiler :


    I've said that and will repeat again: what matters is your relative position.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. DoubleCheck

    DoubleCheck Chieftain

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  4. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    Now here is someone understanding the things he says :goodjob:.

    Let me just mention that although great scientists have a very good bulbing ability, they also tend to give you science techs (duh!). Thus they tend to make a very predetermined game (when you know what you want to bulb, you have to get always the same techs out of the way!).
    I'm still playing this game 4 years after it came into my hands, because I like some variety. Thus, I'm only rarely going into the predetermined "bulb your way to liberalism" path.
    I like to get early great prophets or great merchants.
    I even like to bulb the merchants (metal casting for the win :lol:).

    However, back the point, I'm not saying that the cottage way is more efficient. It's just another option, offering more expanding possibilities at the price of lower teching pace for a while (more commerce goes into gold, less to beakers). There is a come back later, with some kind of exponential power if you're not overwhelmed in the meantime.
    It's the most efficient way for financial leaders, but it works even for low life forms, such as Isabella ;)
     
  5. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I wasn't saying scientists are better always. I'm just saying that sometimes they are.
    Another reason is you just haven't got enough workers to build those cottages yet in every city, instead prioritizing food and settlers, etc. Or other stuff.

    I'm not advocating against cottages. I am a firm believer of working cottages early and as much as possible, especially to get your economy back on track.
    TMIT further expands on why you can favor Scientists, but I thought these reasons where pretty obvious.
     
  6. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    cottages need less worker turns than farms ;)
     
  7. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    the tech path for succesful tech parity is hunting /archery
    priesthood for oracle, aesthtics, alphabet, divine right - for trade

    i refer to this method as "the method of wheel to writing to library for second city, sailing for port."
     
  8. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Immaterial, you might just rely on food resources at this early point.
     
  9. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    Based specifically on the early game (ancient/classical), the answer is 100%... for as long as you possible can. I can usually do it for pretty long. Through tribal huts and asking "pleased" or better nations for "help" in the form of all their gold (yes, you have to help them in the tech race to really get help), you should be able to go to 100% for a pretty long time... building courthouses and libraries... as soon as you drop from 100%, go to 70% and start whipping marketplaces... should set you up pretty nicely if you can make it happen this way (in other words, if you don't have Monte or some other loser making you build up your military to cold war levels).
     
  10. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Scientists allow me to quickly recover an extended REX while still building troops and teching towards recovery.

    I don't use them every game nor do I prefer them every game. But they are definitely a strong way to continue funding research while funding expansion. Generally, trade routes and riverside tiles provide the gold in a low slider situation.
     
  11. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    Assuming no hope of their popping a GS (which, to be fair, is an unfair assumption), scientists are really a desperation move compared to a cottage: 2F1C is way better than "0F3.75C". But, it's a very nice kind of desperation, since it usually means you've got some land under yer belt (and thus the low slider) -- dat's awright!

    Now what I *really* don't get is the kind of desperation that leads to people merrily and unapologetically doing things like building wealth or cottaging corn. I guess I need to finally start playing Emperor...
     
  12. TheWilltoAct

    TheWilltoAct I am observe

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    Word, you a fellow monarch player?
     
  13. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    Yes, and finally starting to feel that I'm playing below my level -- but I've only ever finished one game (and it took a year of half-finished games to finally achieve that)... I want a couple more before I move on.
     
  14. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    You criticize building wealth now? I wouldn't have won some games on Immortal if you couldn't build wealth...

    Cottaging corn however, yeah I don't know why you would do that :p - settling on corn can be fine, in the rare occasion (better to settle on sugar for same result though).
     
  15. Lansky

    Lansky King

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    Desperation? More like a sound build choice to hike up research in the early-mid game. Markets take WAAAAY too long to be profitable.
     
  16. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    I wouldn't say I criticize it, I just say I don't understand it... I mean theoretically I do, since I see that it happens a lot on the highest levels, but I have yet to experience the kind of commerce/research desperation that would make it superior to the methods that are more efficient on paper.

    I know that kind of situation does await me, thus the "guess I need to start Emperor" comment.
     
  17. Lansky

    Lansky King

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    My point was simply that it is not desperation. If I have currency then my economy no longer classifies as desperate. A production city after it has all the necesarry stuff in the early game (barracks, granary, maybe library for the hell of it) can do 1 of two 2 things. Build wealth to increase research of commerce cities or more units. If you have multiple production cities, which you normally do/should, then you don't need them all pumping units. 1 usually suffices or sometimes none. Wealth is the next best build if no essential wonder is on the table.

    Working 1F2C coastal tiles to prevent striking. Now that's desperation!
     
  18. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    :eek: oh hell yeah, that's bad lol. Glad I've never been that bad off.
     
  19. City Raider

    City Raider Warlord

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    I've used it on Emperor to power to a Culture Victory in some games where I didn't think I'd win the Space race or another Civ might beat me to a culture win. I'm not huge fan of late warfare and things can get a bit tedious, but in my last game with Egy I had about 20 cities and had 2 cities building tanks, 1 city building culture (my weakest of the 3 culture cities) and the other 17 cities building wealth so I could have my slider at 100% culture.

    I still need more experience at Emperor, but for me it gets to a point where it is easier for some of those later cities or mediocre cities that can have a decent hammer supply with a few mines to just convert to wealth rather than building excessive improvements that probably won't have that much of an impact that late in the game. I've found in most cases the vaste majority of you science will be from a select few cities which leaves plenty of cities that can just build wealth or whatever is needed at the time.
     
  20. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    If I have infrastructure/multipliers up in my commerce cities, I'll have them build wealth especially if in UnivSuff (1:hammers: for towns). Of course, if I don't have a good # of military spammers, they'll push out units instead of wealth. I've never found building wealth to be weak unless you have infrastructure and multipliers unbuilt. After all, why not push that slider as far as possible?
     

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