Resource Yield Balance

[mavol6]

one solution to the late luxuries boosts is moving the bank bonus to the custom house, although im not entirely sure for the silk (maybe the amphitheater?).

or just makes the boost better than the earlier counterparts, like 2g 1c for those four resources.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I would like to see the GA Monopoly Bonus also provide 1 Happiness. Maybe it's just me but I find it's hard to get GAs.

The main thing that I dislike about the Happiness Monopoly is that it feels like it cuts in to the base Happiness that Luxuries are supposed to give.

If Resources with Renaissance Era Buildings aren't moved earlier, than have them give like 3 Yields instead of just 2.

 

[Gazebo]

If the problem is that the current monopolies for happiness are on under-performing resources, the better solution is to buff said resource. If the resource is already doing well, I don't think we need to change much. Making the +3 happiness resources +4 or +5 maintains the current model without tipping the cart entirely (as such efforts often require new balance, etc.).

G

 

[Kolaris]

By the way I'm no historian so this is not backed by historical facts at all, but I dislike some of the resource-shuffling.

I have to agree. Historicity is a large part of why I enjoy the Civ series. I wouldn't say it's more important than gameplay balance, but it's up there.

Fortunately Gazebo is kind enough to leave these things open to user-editing

Though I recall you said you never do that...

 

[Funak]

I have to agree. Historicity is a large part of why I enjoy the Civ series. I wouldn't say it's more important than gameplay balance, but it's up there.

Fortunately Gazebo is kind enough to leave these things open to user-editing

Though I recall you said you never do that...

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm just being way too lazy to check historical facts on things, and I hope that Gazebo haven't backed his words with too much of it either. I mean if I am totally wrong, for example if historically the introduction of tobacco increased productivity a whole bunch, then sure, I guess I'll have to agree to it.

Historicity isn't critical in this case. 'Tiers of happiness' becomes complex quite quickly and takes away from the simplicity of the bonus system. Having happiness on all monopolies also might lead to a glut of mid-game happiness, which I don't want. Having it be on just a few monopolies makes more sense and retains the basic structure of the current model.

I don't think having an extra 0-2 happiness on every monopoly is going to glut anything, I don't think that adding some happiness to a few of the monopolies is going to make the system too complex either. I mean it is like an extra 3 words, it is not going to cause more confusion than the monopoly system already does (I'm looking at you, 50%).
In a best case scenario you're going to have 3 or 4 monopolies in the mid-game (more realistically 1 or 2) even assuming you're having the monopolies that gives the most happiness that's an extra 5 or 6 happiness (2 or 4) with average resources it's going to result in around 3 happiness (around 1). This is clearly not going to be a problem, and I've already said that you're totally welcome to raise the resource-requirements for happiness slightly to compensate. I mean the fact that the +3 happiness monopoly was completely neglectable in most situations kinda tells you the tale.

Truth be told I don't think that the Gold monopoly even needs a buff. I think a lot of the 'eww +3 gold that's weak' comes from a BNW-experience bias. I'd honestly rather just increase the happiness to +4 or +5 and leave it at that.

That's absolutely one way to do it, I think this way is a lot more interesting and from what I've heard most people seems to think that both the happiness and the gold monopolies are close to worthless.

I like Funak's ideas (mostly what I feel too) and Gazebo's (very transparent and aesthetic). Anyway, I vote for removing this +3 happiness monopolies. They're totally boring and there are too many of them.

I understand that you're trying to be diplomatic, but you can't possibly agree with both of us when we're completely opposed to each other(as we usually are )



By the way, save the building, and tile stuff for when we've done with the monopolies. I have a few ideas, but it's better to avoid the chaos of working on everything at the same time.

 

[Gazebo]

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm just being way too lazy to check historical facts on things, and I hope that Gazebo haven't backed his words with too much of it either. I mean if I am totally wrong, for example if historically the introduction of tobacco increased productivity a whole bunch, then sure, I guess I'll have to agree to it.


I don't think having an extra 0-2 happiness on every monopoly is going to glut anything, I don't think that adding some happiness to a few of the monopolies is going to make the system too complex either. I mean it is like an extra 3 words, it is not going to cause more confusion than the monopoly system already does (I'm looking at you, 50%).
In a best case scenario you're going to have 3 or 4 monopolies in the mid-game (more realistically 1 or 2) even assuming you're having the monopolies that gives the most happiness that's an extra 5 or 6 happiness (2 or 4) with average resources it's going to result in around 3 happiness (around 1). This is clearly not going to be a problem, and I've already said that you're totally welcome to raise the resource-requirements for happiness slightly to compensate. I mean the fact that the +3 happiness monopoly was completely neglectable in most situations kinda tells you the tale.


That's absolutely one way to do it, I think this way is a lot more interesting and from what I've heard most people seems to think that both the happiness and the gold monopolies are close to worthless.


I understand that you're trying to be diplomatic, but you can't possibly agree with both of us when we're completely opposed to each other(as we usually are )



By the way, save the building, and tile stuff for when we've done with the monopolies. I have a few ideas, but it's better to avoid the chaos of working on everything at the same time.

I think - at least for now - I'm going to keep the +3 gold as-is, and buff the Happiness monopolies to +5. I'm fully aware this will not make everyone happy, but I do think this gets us close enough to balance without further obfuscation.

G

 

[Funak]

I'm fully aware this will not make everyone happy

It is not going to make anyone happy, 3 happiness or 5 happiness, it is still by far the worst monopoly in the game.

 

[Gazebo]

It is not going to make anyone happy, 3 happiness or 5 happiness, it is still by far the worst monopoly in the game.

I disagree. Least exciting perhaps, but it has instant value and offers one of the few sources of raw 'up' happiness in the game. Also, works well alongside wide play, which is a general side-effect of monopoly-hunting.

G

 

[Funak]

I disagree. Least exciting perhaps, but it has instant value and offers one of the few sources of raw 'up' happiness in the game. Also, works well alongside wide play, which is a general side-effect of monopoly-hunting.

Name one worse monopoly

 

[Gazebo]

Name one worse monopoly

If you are swimming in Gold, the Gold one. If you are at or below 0 happiness, the % GA one. If you aren't going Culture, the % culture one. And so on.

+5 Happiness, theoretically, is +5% to all empire-wide yields. Also faster GAs, which play a huge role in many UAs, some beliefs/policies/wonders, etc.

I could go on, but +5 Happiness is quite good in the proper circumstance, just like any other monopoly.

G

 

[mikes61293]

One way to buff copper without making the forge bonus +2 production would be to give it a % production bonus to ancient and classical era units. It would open up some early war mongering possibilities and keep it unique from other luxuries.

Also, is there a way to give resources increase yield on technology unlock? For example copper could gain 2 production on the discovery of electricity.

 

[Gokudo01]

If you are swimming in Gold, the Gold one. If you are at or below 0 happiness, the % GA one. If you aren't going Culture, the % culture one. And so on.

+5 Happiness, theoretically, is +5% to all empire-wide yields. Also faster GAs, which play a huge role in many UAs, some beliefs/policies/wonders, etc.

I could go on, but +5 Happiness is quite good in the proper circumstance, just like any other monopoly.

G

Will you tackle the luxuries' yields after that ?

 

[Gazebo]

One way to buff copper without making the forge bonus +2 production would be to give it a % production bonus to ancient and classical era units. It would open up some early war mongering possibilities and keep it unique from other luxuries.

Also, is there a way to give resources increase yield on technology unlock? For example copper could gain 2 production on the discovery of electricity.

No, you can't do that.

Will you tackle the luxuries' yields after that ?

Not sure what you are talking about.
G

 

[Gokudo01]

Not sure what you are talking about.
G

For example, the yields from Ivory or Incense, and the buildings which increase these yields.

 

[Funak]

Will you tackle the luxuries' yields after that ?

I was going to do that, but I got completely blindsided by that +5 happiness solution undoing all of my work.

 

[Kolaris]

I'm in the middle of putting a spreadsheet together. Still a ways to go but you can already pick out a few oddities.

 

[Funak]

I'm in the middle of putting a spreadsheet together. Still a ways to go but you can already pick out a few oddities.

Seems a bit excessive, but sure.

Here are some buildings:

Here's the Buildings that Boost Resources [UBs in Italics]
Ancients:
Stone Works (+2 Prod) and Tabya (+1 Gold): Salt, Marble, Jade
Market and Bazaar (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Spices, Sugar
Classic:
Ampitheatre and Acropolis (+1 Gold/ Culture): Dyes, Lapis Lazuli
Forge (+1 Prod) and Siege Foundry (+2 Prod): Copper
Colosseum and Arena (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Perfumes and Olives
Temple and Basilica (+1 Faith/ Culture ): Incense, Wine, Amber
Caravansary and Burial Tomb (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Cotton, Furs, Truffles
Medieval:
Garden, Baths and Candi [puts another Indonesian Luxury] (+2 Gold): Cocoa, Citrus
Circus (+3 Gold) but not Ceilidh Hall!: Ivory
Renaissance:
Bank (+2 Gold): Gems, Gold, Silver
Grocer, Tea Pavilion and Coffee House (+1 Gold/ Prod ): Coffee, Tea, Tobacco
Opera House (+1 Gold/ Culture ): Silk

First and foremost, the two odd ones out (assuming G wasn't trolling me when he said he'd fix the Tabya): The Circus replacement 'Ceilidh Hall' not boosting ivory like the circus does, and the Coffee house buffing Grocer resources despite being a windmill.


Second, there are a few buildings that I really don't like:
Grocers: Comes too late
Bank: Comes too late and is really weak
Opera House: Comes too late
Circus: Feels completely off boosting ivory.

I would scrap all of them and redistribute the resources to other buildings, mostly the trade-buildings.


Third: I really hate Ivory. The resource is way too odd, weird, misused. The Tile-improvement treats Ivory like it is just the Ivory, growing on the ground somewhere, the bonus from the Circus does the same thing. They both just give a bunch of gold, which makes sense, ivory is valuable. However, the fact that the ivory-bonus is located on a circus, the fact that it enables war elephants and the fact that ivory doesn't exactly grow on trees, it grows on elephants, makes me feel like the idea is that the tile actually contains elephants.
If the tile would contain elephants it would provide a lot more bonuses than just gold, elephants are good eating and good for working. If the tile would represent elephants the tile should be a heavy food/hammer tile.

 

[Gazebo]

Seems a bit excessive, but sure.

Here are some buildings:



First and foremost, the two odd ones out (assuming G wasn't trolling me when he said he'd fix the Tabya): The Circus replacement 'Ceilidh Hall' not boosting ivory like the circus does, and the Coffee house buffing Grocer resources despite being a windmill.


Second, there are a few buildings that I really don't like:
Grocers: Comes too late
Bank: Comes too late and is really weak
Opera House: Comes too late
Circus: Feels completely off boosting ivory.

I would scrap all of them and redistribute the resources to other buildings, mostly the trade-buildings.


Third: I really hate Ivory. The resource is way too odd, weird, misused. The Tile-improvement treats Ivory like it is just the Ivory, growing on the ground somewhere, the bonus from the Circus does the same thing. They both just give a bunch of gold, which makes sense, ivory is valuable. However, the fact that the ivory-bonus is located on a circus, the fact that it enables war elephants and the fact that ivory doesn't exactly grow on trees, it grows on elephants, makes me feel like the idea is that the tile actually contains elephants.
If the tile would contain elephants it would provide a lot more bonuses than just gold, elephants are good eating and good for working. If the tile would represent elephants the tile should be a heavy food/hammer tile.

So you have a proper updated list, here's the working list of changes I've got in the hopper (not final, but testing):

Switched +1 Gold from resources on Tabya to +2 Production
Buffed Burial tomb base yields (now +3 faith, +2 Production)
Yield bonus on Ivory from Circus now +3 Culture (was +3 Gold)
Bank Yield for resources now +3 (Was +2)

Improvement yields adjusted for a few resources:
Coral and Pearls gain +1 Culture from Fishing Boats
Coffee (+1 Food), Tobacco (+1 Culture), Perfume (+1 Culture), and Incense (+1 Culture)
Copper (+1 Production)
Ivory (+1 Production)

 

[Funak]

So you have a proper updated list, here's the working list of changes I've got in the hopper (not final, but testing):

No, no, no, no, no. No stealthchanges while I'm trying to do my things, please :/

Switched +1 Gold from resources on Tabya to +2 Production
Buffed Burial tomb base yields (now +3 faith, +2 Production)

The Burial tomb got nothing to do with this, and the Tabya was already mentioned.
Also, the list I copy-pasted listed the Siege Foundry as giving +2 production from copper, something that's not true.

Yield bonus on Ivory from Circus now +3 Culture (was +3 Gold)

I can see this at least making some sense, but again the tile got yields as if you're actually talking about ivory, and ivory have nothing to do with circuses (afaik).

Bank Yield for resources now +3 (Was +2)

The bank is still way too late for this to matter. Bank Opera house and Grocer resources really needs to be moved earlier, you're just suffering way too much waiting 4 eras for the luxury-yields.

The bank could really use something if the resources are removed from it, I would suggest letting the bank add +1 gold to all luxuries. Something similar could be done in the modern era from some building, to keep luxuries relevant.

Coral and Pearls gain +1 Culture from Fishing Boats

This makes sense to me.

Coffee (+1 Food), Tobacco (+1 Culture), Perfume (+1 Culture), and Incense (+1 Culture)

I don't think you necessarily need to add yields to them, the problem is that a lot of plantation resources are really similar, so flipping some gold on them for other yields would probably make enough of a difference to make them feel special.

Copper (+1 Production)

The copper tile doesn't need a boost, the forge needs to be reverted, it just makes no sense having every other resource get plus + yields (or more) from their related building and copper/iron only getting +1.

Ivory (+1 Production)

Makes sense, ivory is really suffering from being a camp-resource outside of forest/jungle.

 

[Gazebo]

No, no, no, no, no. No stealthchanges while I'm trying to do my things, please :/

It isn't 'stealth,' it's called 'reading this thread and testing things out over the past few days.'

I can see this at least making some sense, but again the tile got yields as if you're actually talking about ivory, and ivory have nothing to do with circuses (afaik).

This seems really pedantic. You do realize that elephants can provide both their elephant-ness (as, ya know, elephants) and also - if killed - ivory? Ivory as a resource is the byproduct of the elephant (much like Furs are the byproduct of killing beavers, etc., not literally wearing a live beaver on your head).

The bank is still way too late for this to matter. Bank Opera house and Grocer resources really needs to be moved earlier, you're just suffering way too much waiting 4 eras for the luxury-yields.

It's fine. Banks fit the resource well, and offers a big renaissance-era boost to Gold.

I don't think you necessarily need to add yields to them, the problem is that a lot of plantation resources are really similar, so flipping some gold on them for other yields would probably make enough of a difference to make them feel special.

I think these buffs are small enough to bring them inline.

The copper tile doesn't need a boost, the forge needs to be reverted, it just makes no sense having every other resource get plus + yields (or more) from their related building and copper/iron only getting +1.

No, Forge stays as-is. It is too early for a +2/+2 boost.
G