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[GS] Resources and Power Anticipation Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I'm quite excited about the resource changes. Is anyone else?

    I think the new resource rules + loyalty could make warmongering way more interesting. The interaction of resources and climate also may create a bit of light empire management which might be very cool (I can't see Civ having serious empire management e.g. EU4 of CK, but a bit more would be good). The power system might also be enough to make late game production and Tier 3 buildings "okay". With resources having more uses, including non military, they'll also be more resason to compete for resources.

    I can also see a few niggles that are going to annoy me (although I might be able to mod some). Specifically:
    • Knights not needing Iron + Horses is going to endless annoy me - I don't get Knights needing just one resource at all. FXS have a great chance to nerf Knights and also make HC more distinctive (by making them need two resources). Missed opportunity.
    • being able to heal units with one resource unit is daft - healing should consume some resource (maybe just 1 unit), otherwise you can't really cut off a Civ's supply to a resource to weaken them;
    • IZs and Workshops will still be too weak (as I've suggested elsewhere give IZs +1 adjacency for strategic resources (maybe give the Hansa +1 Great Merchant points to compensate) and give Workshops +1 housing and or they buff certain city bonus resources).
    • Doesn't look like Harbours get power buffs, which is a bit annoying.
    Thoughts? Discussion?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Prester John 2 likes this.
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    On the topic of Power, there's something that irks me.

    A Power Plant, no matter which, produces 4 Power. It's a tier 3 IZ building and Factories are a Tier 2 IZ building, so you always have to have a factory to have a Power Plant.

    Now, the Factory consumes 2 Power to maximize its output, so half the Power Plant's Power yield is already getting used up inside its own district. So if you have another tier 3 building in the city, like a Broadcast Center which consumes 3 Power to maximize its output, then your Power needs are already 5 and your poor Power Plant only makes 4.

    So you can't even have a single Power-consuming tier 3 building in a city maximized without requiring an additional source of Power, whether from an IZ in a neighboring city or a Hydroelectric Dam or one of the renewable improvements* that come later. But if you don't have those yet or a spot for a Dam, then to get a single city's single tier 3 building (Broadcast Center, Research Lab, or whatever) maximized, you need two horrible resource-consuming CO2 belching Power Plants in two IZs in two cities. It just makes those tier 3 buildings even less worthwhile.

    *wind, solar, geothermal
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Eagle Pursuit Is that right?

    I thought Power Plants basically produced as much power as needed for Cities within 6 tiles - the catch being that you burn more resources the more power you need to produce.

    Clean power is then always localised to a city, meaning that city need some less power from any surrounding power plants (meaning you burn less fuel).
     
    Uberfrog, Sostratus and killmeplease like this.
  4. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    there should be preindustrial power buildings/imporvements like water/wind/ox/horsemills
    there was a lot of human powered machinery too, from potter's and spinning wheels, to treadmills, mechanical presses and crank operated drive wheels connected to lathes and other stuff in the early modern manufactories.
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I suppose I misunderstood it the first time. It appears to produce as much power as required by all cities within 6 tiles, consuming 1 unit of resource for each 4 units of Power required. I thought it said it burned 1 resource and produced 4 Power, maximum, end of story, period.

    Issue resolved.
     
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I think there is also some IZ project you can run which creates power (a bit like how Entertainment Complex generates loyalty). I'm not sure how this works, assuming I'm right and that it's still in the game.
     
  7. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    But there's still a point of contention. Assuming the Power Plant is only producing power for the one city, that first tier 3 building is going to double resource consumption thanks to prerequisite Factories taking up 2 Power.

    The IZ Logistics Project does produce as much Power as the city needs for the duration of the Project. But obviously there's an opportunity cost, as the city can't produce anything else while it is working on the project.
     
  8. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Eagle Pursuit Agreed.

    I think it's a bit silly you have to have a factory in the city with a power plant.

    Really, the power plant should have been a separate and mid / late game district - maybe one that again could be speeded up with a ME.

    I guess IZ Logistics just provides a way to boost other yields in a city that need power - e.g. Your Research Lab. But I'd imagine just running normal projects would be a better use of resources. Does IZ Logistics also give Great Engineers? If so, maybe they'll get a bit of a buff too.
     
  9. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    IZ Logistics still provides the GE points and (I think ) Gold that it used to.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  10. bbbt

    bbbt Warlord

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    I wonder if power plants can be turned 'off'. I.e. your coal mines get pillaged and you prioritize maintaining your ironclads over powering your broadcast station - can you even do so?

    So far power looks pretty weak but maybe there's more to be revealed. I'm not sure my theory they've made it a requirement for the science victory projects is accurate, but I think I'm attempting to will it into existence by repitition :)
     
  11. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    Did they change IZ logistics? We know they can now run projects to convert the power plant type once you've unlocked it. I suppose you'd really want such a project in case you get shafted. Nice tweak- it felt hollow that IZ logistics was just a worse way to generate gold than CH investment!
    We cannot currently even sell buildings, unlike civ5, so there may be no way to undo things like placing too many powered buildings.

    What is going to be absolutely vital is that the amount of coal, oil, and uranium provided by a deposit is properly balanced. For example, horses and iron are stated to yield 2 each per turn. If coal was the same, it would mean you could only get 8 power per despot, which runs your factory and a research lab and a broadcast tower, that's it. Only being able to support 2 infantry units per deposit also seems a bit silly. So it must be more- but how much more? Given the (imo) shortsighted decision to require infantry to use oil like tanks do, you cannot practically field an army of any size and have oil plants unless these wells are spewing oil everywhere.

    (if A has oil and B doesn't, then B can only build Antitank crews, meaning A can spam pure infantry for a locked in +10 combat boost against B. Even if A builds pure tanks, B can only match their strength with AT crews. B is screwed here, because the modern era is also when ranged units stop being effective- field cannons vs tanks! If A and B have oil, both sides should build tanks only, because you're paying 50-80 more production (480 vs 430 or 400 for AT) and you get 2 extra MP, and either 10 str advantage over infantry or parity with an AT crew. Basically, never build infantry if a tank uses the same resource load and tanks have 10 extra str and 2 extra move for trivial cost.) /endrant

    I'm also very curious if corps & armies will use a linear amount of resources -1/2/3- or if they will get a discount like they do on maintenance.
     
  12. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Chieftain

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    1: Horses unlocking with animal husbandry will sting a little for some civs that like to know they're around before settling. Not getting that +1F/+1P for the first 10 turns will slow things down some.

    2: Just my opinion, but I think the resource cap + cost per unit will make knights and horsemen seen in much fewer numbers. Two strategic resources per tile per turn looks about right to keep players form spamming said units everywhere. The most important limitation here is the storage cap (starts @ ~20) which will severely limit how many units can be produced within a short number of turns.

    Instead of investing into horsemen or H. Chariots off the get go, players may want encampment + building to get a high enough cap to afford a good quantity of units or upgrades (even at 1/2 resource cost). If they don't increase their cap and decide to trade for more strategics they'll need to pony up something equivalent (gold, diplo, etc.). I just hope the AI will not accept goods-over-time as they'll just get declared upon and run-over with their own horses.

    Which ever way players go about it, they'll have to toss some resources else where instead of doubling down on horseman/H.chariots/knights as before.

    Gilga may be *the* exception if his carts avoid getting tagged with a strategic cost.

    3: I could see healing for units that require strategic resources being quite annoying for players. It'll slip the mind every once in a while and may cost a unit from time to time if they are still producing while conquering.

    I could see them changing healing to cost 1 strategic, but it'll slow down warmongering much more then players think.

    Players would want the most healing per resource from the city center/district but running units back to heal would be very burdensome. Defending civs would be at a huge advantage if they damaged enough opposing units as healing in the field for 10 adds up very quickly. It would all boil down to quickly taking a city to heal-up or peasing out if they failed.

    4: Power comes too late to make IZs profitable. Since production is a basic resource (along with food) which can be readily found in abundance, they could just make each specialist yield an equivalent to mines+1 (+ era upgrades).

    With enough science, players can ignore IZ+power plants and rush into greener energy solutions.

    If they really want power to work, they should require it for airplanes, nukes, spaceports, and GDRs. Culture, diplomatic, and religious victories wouldn't require it as military power just a side job for those victories.

    5: Harbors got an indirect boost in GS by sea routes generating more gold. Sure; land routes get increased yields as well, but those come much later with railroads and tunnels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  13. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @NegativeZero 2: Yeah, kinda. But Heavy Cav really need a hard nerf. And if both Horsemen and Knights need Horses, why would anyone build Horsemen?

    3: Yes. But having to keep one unit of resource to heal is tedious. If there's a balance issue stopping resources being consumed to heal, then just lose the requirement for healing entirel.

    4: Well, that's what we're waiting to see. Unless IZ and Workshop are buffed, at best you'll only build IZs for the eventual Powerplant and its ability to buff other yields e.g. Research Labs and Science.

    5: I'm not saying Harbours need a buff. Just sad they don't get in on the power mechanic. Oh well.
     
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  14. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Chieftain

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    I'm not sure what'll shake out when GS drops, but Horsemen are getting Courser at castle is a plus. It was also mentioned in the Mali live stream that some unit re-balancing is occurring. I'm just keeping hopeful.

    Yup; it's going to be annoying to keep that 1 resource in the bank. However it may not matter depending upon order of operations.

    If units heal after resources are added to the stockpile at the start of the turn there will be zero issues healing for flat strategic units.
    If healing occurs before resources are allocated, players will need to remember to keep 1 around.

    I misunderstood about harbors; my apologies.
     
  15. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @NegativeZero The Devs comment that they're still rebalancing was the bit I was most excited about. By far.

    I'm pumped about the resource system. But dear God, the devil will be in the detail. It must be murder for FXS getting resources to balance, particularly given how many other systems it now impacts on. I really hope they get it right, even if it takes a few patches to get there.
     
  16. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Chieftain

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    I can't imagine I'll ever run Logistics again if it no longer provides gold, even if it now powers the city.
     
  17. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Chieftain

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    I agree with OP. It's one of the most anticipated features of GS for me, I really like micromanagement :) Let's just hope they will get the balance right indeed
     
  18. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    I didn't catch it in the stream, but in Lily_Lancers thread about mandekalu, their cost and resource was changed from 190/horses in the first look to 220.iron in the stream. So maybe they are actually taking a hard look at some of these heavy v light cav issues.

    It really doesn't make sense to have iron in game if the only unit that ever requires it is swordsmen. You could make some cool strategy by having units like tanks, battleships, and ironclads need fuel to run but take iron to build.
    However, there should always be a resource less unit in every era that can take a city. I understand ranged units won't need them, which is good, but if the only choice is anticav forever, I think they are gonna be in for a rough balance patch when they realize what they've done. At least let regular old infantry be resource-less to throw people a bone- tanks are quite good! Maybe it all works and I'm looking at it wrong.
     
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