Resources

[GeoModder]

1) Why can't I move the DNA data to wherever I please?

0ne thing I can come up with would be software/hardware incompatability after humanity switches to optical computers or something. But that's very thing too.
Another thing might be data scrambling. It has deteriorated beyond copy recovery to new IT systems after all those Planet years in the open away from maintenance. So discoverers have to do with what's left and still readable at the moment of discovery.

2) Why am I limited to only one resource of that kind? Why can't I, after having discovered one of a certain resource, breed/grow as many animals/plants as I want to (at least after having Cloning)?

It can always be that, before the DNA of a particular organic resource is mapped and understood, this resource has adapted to this specific spot on Planet alone. It's a niche resource so to speak, and spreading it to other places on Planet let this resource mutate in such a way that the specific thingie in that resource which kindled interest in it doesn't come up.

Similar problems exist with discovering a famous Old Earth movie/book in a unity pod cache.

Oh, that's an easy one! The uniqueness of the contents of the pod cache makes it so valuable, a 'resource' so to speak. Sure the contents can be copied and distributed for the entertainment of the populace at large, but the real marble is owning the original stuff for your musea or somesuch. The 'happiness' is this case would be patriotism or proudness, not knowing the contents of it.

 

[Maniac]

0ne thing I can come up with would be software/hardware incompatability after humanity switches to optical computers or something. But that's very thing too.
Another thing might be data scrambling. It has deteriorated beyond copy recovery to new IT systems after all those Planet years in the open away from maintenance. So discoverers have to do with what's left and still readable at the moment of discovery.

But that would still be a one-time mission. Go there, retrieve the still available data, and leave. Nothing that requires a permanent settlement.

It can always be that, before the DNA of a particular organic resource is mapped and understood, this resource has adapted to this specific spot on Planet alone. It's a niche resource so to speak, and spreading it to other places on Planet let this resource mutate in such a way that the specific thingie in that resource which kindled interest in it doesn't come up.

The ecological niche makes sense for native Chiron organisms, but as far as I can see not for terran organisms beyond the level of I assume bacteria. Complex organisms like eg banana trees most likely wouldn't be able to mutate to Chiron conditions without human intervention.

Oh, that's an easy one! The uniqueness of the contents of the pod cache makes it so valuable, a 'resource' so to speak. Sure the contents can be copied and distributed for the entertainment of the populace at large, but the real marble is owning the original stuff for your musea or somesuch. The 'happiness' is this case would be patriotism or proudness, not knowing the contents of it.

Sounds a good enough explanation for the problem of only having one resource but not an answer to the question why you can't move the resource, which seems a critical element of the resource system to me*. For books you could say that the unity pod contained more than just a few books, rather a small library and too many for a small recon party to carry back, and that the books are too detoriated to move. But that doesn't work for movies.


* I'd say resources add three things to the game:
1) makes exploration more interesting
2) gives some interesting targets for your colonization and war efforts. This element would disappear if you could move most resources.
3) gives some stuff to trade with other factions => makes diplomacy more interesting/contentful.



Some overview of issues:

Native organisms: no problems here at all. The reason of them only living in an ecological niche can be used here to explain scarcity.

Raw materials: problem here is that they need to be rare enough to count as a resource. So stuff like iron, silicon and aluminium is out I assume. That leaves Silver and Gold which aren't in yet. A couple other elements were mentioned in this thread. Gotta check if their occurence is rare or concentrated enough. Btw, IIRC copper is pretty rare too, right?
GeoModder, in an earlier post in this thread you mentioned silver and gold as crucial for a technological society. Why is this? For the jewely reasons, or are there others?

paper book Library cache from unity pod or wreckage: no problems
Reason for scarcity: factional pride for ownership
Reason for immobility: too many to carry for a recon party, detoriated
But then this item wouldn't be tradeable

Old Earth movies: problem with explaining immobility
Reason for scarcity: factional pride for ownership
Immobility issue: perhaps movies could be a unit that can be brought back to your cities and there turned into a building which provides some movie resources? I assume if the mechanic isn't used too frequently, it could be good.

A still functioning hydroponics pod containing some living terran plants:
Reason for immobility: too fragile to move
Reason for scarcity: prior to Cloning some reasons could be invented to explaning it being impossible to grow. Eg the tree species having gender. The found specimen is male, but no female exists anymore. But then this item wouldn't be tradeable prior to Cloning. And what after Cloning?? Then it wouldn't be scarce enough anymore to count as a resource.

Live animals:
Problems: are mobile, aren't scarce because can be bred, if not before Cloning then certainly after.

DNA data: problems: is mobile and once obtained not scarce.

 

[GeoModder]

Maniac, you can have a "resource" which isn't physically present on the map. Think of those 3 media resources in Civ.

 

[Maniac]

I know. How's that relevant?

 

[Rubin]

I have mixed feelings about strategic resources. Using the default Civ4 system in Planetfall does not appeal to me. Instead, I've been dividing the strategic resources into three distinct categories (related to a broader take on resouces):

1) Instead of unlocking units (or facilities), strategic resources confer a minor +% bonus towards the production of certain units. In Civ4 terms this means that "iron" confers a +20% or less production bonus to swordsmen; the player can still produce swordsmen without access to iron.

2) Maniac's suggestion of an "archeological artifact resource" (see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5146687&postcount=24 )

3) Corporation-like resource mechanics:

Each base resource (minerals, energy, nutrients) has a strategic variant that--in addition to providing the usual bonus--provides a strategic resource. These strategic resources could be divided into 4 strategic categories corresponding with the SMAC/X paradigms: Build (+production), Conquer (+morale/+support), Discover (+research), and Explore (+Planet).

Spoiler Example, Conquer category :

Nutrient Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster
Energy Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster
Mineral Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster

The "Resonance Cluster" resource (some kind of special buffer material or catalyst) is a tradeable strategic resource.

The tradeable strategic resource does not confer a direct bonus (yield, luxury, etc.), but requires some kind of investment (e.g. infrastructure) in order to be "unlocked". The resource becomes tradeable as soon as it is connected to the trade network; this simply requires the base plot improvement (e.g. mines on mineral resources, farms on nutrient resources, solar panels on energy resources), no special improvement is required.

Instead of having corporations "unlocking" the strategic resources, base facilities combined with a civic are required. Each of the base facilities receive a bonus scaling with the number of relevant strategic resources controlled.

Spoiler Example, Conquer category :

Euthinal Refinery: All units receive +2% per Resonance Cluster (per facility)

Flavor: The chemical substance "polydichloric euthimal" (short: "Euthinal") is a very potent amphetamine, effectively increasing troops' fighting capabilities. Chemical stability can only be achieved by the use of so-called resonance clusters in the production process. Sustained use of Euthinal causes hallucinations and psychotic behavior that, when applied without strict control, is very harmful to society.
(see Peter Hyams' "Outland" (1981).)

A set of civic options determine if the facility dependent strategic resource bonus has any positive effect. The faction must be running a specific civic in order for the bonus to be applied. Each strategic resource category requires a different civic, preventing factions from utilizing more than 1 strategic resource category at once. Optionally, the infrastructure investment may confer a penalty if a conflicting civic is run.

Spoiler Example, Conquer category :

Euthinal Refinery: Base receives +1 per Resonance Cluster and +1 per Resonance Cluster

There should probably be some kind of option to disable the strategic resource facilities.

Factions running different civics may benefit mutually from trading strategic resources. Because the resources are tied to infrastructure, it is less likely to switch strategic approach and only a denial strategy would interfere with diplomatic trading. A resource that one faction cannot put to use, may be crucial to another faction's success.

 

[Wodan]

That all seems cool, Rubin.

Just to be clear, this is in addition to luxury resources?

Also, we're going to keep non-luxury, non-strategic resources? e.g., plain Nutrients (+2 food, no other benefit), as well as the special terrain types (Manifold, Sargasso, etc.) which could be either resources or actual terrains, doesn't seem to matter so whichever is easier to implement, but regardless their benefit is a plain + and that's it (though it could be a + to just about anything, no need to limit it to nutrients/production/energy).

Wodan

 

[Rubin]

Just to be clear, this is in addition to luxury resources?

Yes, I only considered strategic resources. There may be some overlapping, though.

The idea of luxury resources in default Civ4 is a somewhat effortless affair. You connect, for example, gold to the trade network and you get +1 happiness. Later you unlock additional resources for more +1's.

I guess it works well in Civ4 and city size management is very different from SMAC/X. City sizes tend to fluctuate a lot and I rarely find it worth the effort to really optimize city population (single player); it just disrupts the game flow. The pool of luxury resources may fluctuate as well and the particulars become irrelevant; I trade fish for sheep, I receive wine for silver, I lose a resource--whip something and let time fix the unhappiness issues and health issues are long gone.

There are so many ways to deal with luxuries (whether you have access to luxuries or not). Luxury resources are parts of the whole, and I don't pay that much attention to them (unlike strategic resources).

 

[Wodan]

Not asking about your gameplay style, Rubin, but how we design the mod. We of course have to design the mod for the anal micromanagers as well as the casual go-with-the-flow players such as yourself.

Anyway we have the thoughts out there... I'm confident Maniac will gather the threads and weave some sort of proposal.

Wodan

 

[GeoModder]

GeoModder, in an earlier post in this thread you mentioned silver and gold as crucial for a technological society. Why is this? For the jewely reasons, or are there others?

Oh, because silver and gold are the best transducers (correct word?) for an electric current. At least for resources that can be found in ores. Don't know if there are artificial ones which are better.

Sorry for the late response, if you want a quick(er) response it's best to PM me. I don't monitor the whole forum anymore.

 

[Wodan]

conductors is the word you're looking for.

Artificial ones that are better would be superconductors, but they for the most part don't exist (yet). At non sub-zero temperatures anyway.

Wodan

 

[Maniac]

1) Instead of unlocking units (or facilities), strategic resources confer a minor +% bonus towards the production of certain units. In Civ4 terms this means that "iron" confers a +20% or less production bonus to swordsmen; the player can still produce swordsmen without access to iron.

Yep I definitely agree.

2) Maniac's suggestion of an "archeological artifact resource" (see: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5146687&postcount=24 )

That early ideas hasn't been used in the end. Couldn't really imagine how the tech tree would work this way. Though perhaps a way to relate resources to research is each resource giving a research bonus to a certain category. Eg each monolith gives +5% research for centauri techs. Each (dysfunctional) Dimensional Gate* resource gives a 5% bonus to Physics/Discover techs...

* new resource idea

3) Corporation-like resource mechanics:

I'm all for creative uses of resources!
There are a couple things I don't really understand about what you said though.

Each base resource (minerals, energy, nutrients) has a strategic variant that--in addition to providing the usual bonus--provides a strategic resource. These strategic resources could be divided into 4 strategic categories corresponding with the SMAC/X paradigms: Build (+production), Conquer (+morale/+support), Discover (+research), and Explore (+Planet).

Spoiler Example, Conquer category :

Nutrient Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster
Energy Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster
Mineral Resonance Cluster: +2 +1 Resonance Cluster

Spoiler Example, Conquer category :

So you mean four or five versions of the nutrient bonus, five versions of the mineral bonus...? Is the resource given in your example by nuts, min and ene the same? Is Resonance Cluster only for the Conquer category, or for all categories and is which category it becomes determined by the facility?? Or something else? Is there an explanation for tying "Resonance Cluster" to nut/min/ene boni, or is that just abstract to keep things simple?

Anyway, reading your description I'm mostly worried about the AI.
Teaching the AI to disable facilities is probably very hard. Likewise telling them that having a resource or running a civic in combination with a resource is useless or even a bad thing.
Also AFAIK the AI doesn't know it can be a good thing to trade for resources it already has one or more of. So without some serious AI work a choice would probably have to be made between giving a resource a quantitative effect or making the resource tradeable.

Anyway, a couple problems can probably be circumvented by a different implementation. Eg have corporations unlock the effect, but make it so that only one out of four corporations can be present in a base, so adding a new corporation to the base removes the previous one.

We of course have to design the mod for the anal micromanagers as well as the casual go-with-the-flow players such as yourself.

No we don't. A need for anal micromanagement be bad!

Anyway we have the thoughts out there... I'm confident Maniac will gather the threads and weave some sort of proposal.

Um I'm not so confident.


I guess I should post here too the summary I made of current resources in the mod:

Spoiler :

Bonus yield resources

Nutrient
Mineral
Energy


Happiness resources

Gold: +1 happiness with Factory, connected by mine

Silver: +1 happiness with Factory, connected by mine. I was thinking this also might double fungus removal speed. Currently unimplementable though.

Crystals: +1 happiness with Hologram Theatre. Perhaps also some laser or unit boost - awaiting to see unit system. Connected by mine or borehole. Might also want to allow it by Field Lab, but that would require some SDK change, because I'd prefer an improvement to only connect a resource if TechCityTrade is known.

Health resources

Currently only "Rare DNA"... +1 health with Clinic. Connected by Genetics Lab. (would prefer only one Field Lab terrain improvement but see problem above) Hmm, perhaps this resource could be split into three resources; one that appears on jungle, one on polar and one in deep ocean. Would need some idea for name differentiation though.

Planet-related resources

Note that while the previous resources required a building to have any health/happiness effect, the following resources have an inherent effect. The idea I'm playing with here is that a Planet-friendly strategy allows you to have many small bases (free culture with positive Planet, inherent resource effects, Green civic could reduce base maintenance costs), while other strategies would require a bigger investment before a base gets productive (but perhaps could be more productive in the end).

Monolith: +1 Planet, connected by Field Lab.

Brilliance: +1 Happiness. Only appears on fungus. Connected by Plantation and Centauri Preserve IIRC. Might remove the Plantation terrain improvement. Idea here is that some mind-enhancing drug named Brilliance is derived from fungus. Could give some psi combat benefits. Could be renamed Fungal Gin if desired for a bit more tongue-in-cheek name. Psi-enhancing benefits probably wouldn't fit then though.

Other ideas for fungus-related resources could be Glowmites, Razorbeak and Grenade Fruits. Could give any of happiness/health/planet benefits. Not sure if we'd want to go through with that though.

Strategic resources

Not implemented yet (or at least only uranium and helium are in the game at the moment). I was thinking if we designate Fission Power, Fusion Power, Antimatter and Singularities as the four major advances in energy production, we could tie a resource to each of these which increases energy production of a related building, and could increase unit strength (awaiting unit system implementation to refine the rough ideas).
These could be:
Fission: Uranium
Fusion: Helium(-3)
Antimatter: Iridium
Singularity: Rubidium

Other resources

Alien Artifact resource could give +2 research to all Network Nodes. Other ideas for effects?

Oil is currently in the game, but I should probably remove it. Or at least limit it to the deep oceans with the explanation that's the only place fossil fuels have been able to form due to the absence of fungus. Possible effect could be a reduction in unit maintenance (it being not economical to use advanced antimatter reactors for all units and pumping it from the ground being cheaper than organic fuels), but that's unimplementable at the moment.

And of course a whole bunch of Old Earth stuff resources could be included, but that has a few practical suspension-of-disbelief problems which I mentioned in the Resources thread in the public forum and which would need to be solved first.

Oh, an easy way out to invent all kinds of health and happiness resources could be to place Nanoreplicator facilities as resources on the map, left behind by the Progenitors (why did they leave Planet anyway??) and preprogrammed to manufacture all sorts of stuff. Not sure I like it though...

 

[Rubin]

So you mean four or five versions of the nutrient bonus, five versions of the mineral bonus...?

Well, yes. That is my starting point. Because the strategic resource requires investment and does not provide a direct bonus it can be distributed unevenly among the basic resources. This means:

3 basic resources (N, M, E) and 4 strategic resources (B, C, D, E)

A distribution of strategic resources could look something like this:

Nutrient-C	Mineral-B	Energy-C
Nutrient-E	Mineral-D	Energy-D
Nutrient-B

I see no particular reason for an even distribution.

Is the resource given in your example by nuts, min and ene the same?

Yes, the strategic resource is the same. It is simply an addition to the basic resource.

Is Resonance Cluster only for the Conquer category, or for all categories and is which category it becomes determined by the facility?? Or something else?

The Resonance Cluster variant is for the Conquer category only.

Is there an explanation for tying "Resonance Cluster" to nut/min/ene boni, or is that just abstract to keep things simple?

As stated above, this was my starting point. An abstraction, if you will, but instead of many different resources I would prefer variations of the basic resources.

 

[Maniac]

How about using algae as a resource (+health with recycling tanks)? They exist about everywhere (so different resources for various terrain possible) and have various applications in nutrition, energy production... (so could boost nutrients, minerals and energy)

 

[General_W]

How about "Fossilized Mindworm Husk deposits" as a bonus luxury resource? Kind of like fossils on earth – but especially prized on Planet… as collectors items for the rich / centerpieces for environmental artwork.

Also – maybe the types of fungus could be expanded a bit? Certain fungus patches could have traces of the rare "purple fungus" that has wonderful medicinal qualities. Throw in yellow fungus and the very rare green fungus (also naturally occurring in-between the toes of the subterranean living Hive citizens ) – all of which could add +health to your cities.

Finally – what about creating special regions like in the original SMAC – garland crater, monsoon jungle, mount planet, etc. But this time, instead of having a direct resource benefit, maybe control of the area could add a happiness or health benefit to the controlling civ. Say, control of Mt. Planet could give you 5 Ski Vacation luxuries – kind of like controlling Broadway or Hollywood. You could get really creative with this one.

Just throwing them out there!

 

[Maniac]

LOL ski vacations sounds like a fun resource. And it fits the criteria for the perfect resource: it's scarce, it's immobile/only locally "producable", yet tradable (invite some tourists over). Could perhaps be able to appear on all rocky highland polar terrain, not just the Mount Planet.

 

[Maniac]

Brings back a memory from Alpha Centauri Democracy Game 3:

 

[General_W]

Nice! is that a Morgan Ski Resort I see there?

So here's just a quick brainstorm blast of similar ideas:

• Ski Vacation [+1 ] (The sun and snow are calling your name&#8230
• Geothermal Spa [+1 ] (Enjoy a mud bath on location, or get the unique mud shipped right to your door for home use.)
• Ancient Ruins [+1 ] (Experience all the magic and mystery! Sign up for a tour now.)
• Fossilized Mindworm Husks [+1 ] (Make the ultimate statement in home décor – genuine mindworm husks… turned to stone!)
• Super-Soil [+1 ] (Soil is watered by underground springs that bring unusually rich vitamins and nutrients to the soil up from the depths… producing better food.)
• Green Fungus [+1 ] (A rare genetic mutation in some fungus patches produces green fungal stocks, then when ground into a powder can boost human immune systems.)

Anyway – that's my braindump for today. Hope there's at least a few useful ideas in there!

All these tiles could also obviously offer native bonuses to food or commerce.
I also like the current suggestions of using gold, silver, crystals, rare DNA, and Brilliance Drug for the other bonus resources.

I agree that oil should probably be removed.

 

[Maniac]

Geothermal Spa [+1 ] (Enjoy a mud bath on location, or get the unique mud shipped right to your door for home use.)

W00t I like this one too. Could appear on riversides and coastal tiles. I didn't know "spa" was a word in English btw. (It's a town in Belgium with - guess what - water sources.)

Ancient Ruins[/b] [+1 ] (Experience all the magic and mystery! Sign up for a tour now.)

When including The Ruins landmark, extra happiness and Planet indeed is the logical bonus it would give. Unfortunately this is a resource which can occur only on one place on Planet.

Personally I like the other ideas less though:

Fossilized Mindworm Husks

The Fungus prevents formation of fossilized remains. Same reason why oil doesn't appear.

Super-Soil

Name is kinda bland. Sounds like just another name for the Nutrient bonus.

Green Fungus

I thought I'd add a "Red Algae" resource which appears on fungus. Is kinda similar to the Green Fungus explanation.

 

[Maniac]

This Geothermal Spa thingie gives me an idea for an event:

"Our scouts have discovered a geothermally active region full of geysers and hot water springs. What shall we do?"

Option A: "Let's try and turn it into a tourist attraction."
67% chance of getting a Geothermal Spa resource on the plot.

Option B: "Free Energy! Put a borehole on it immediately!"
Energy bonus resource is created on the plot.
Thermal Borehole is created on the plot.

 

[General_W]

I like that event

Had another random idea for a luxury resource – I'll just keep tossing them out, if that's ok? I seem to score 1 out of 4

Today's idea:

Harmonic Caves – Naturally occurring caves that through the interplay of heat, wind, and subtle fungal vibrations produce a sonic and harmonic effect. Planet Music, if you will. You can purchase the CDs with recordings of the "music" on them – but for the full experience you have to go visit the caves and let the sound waves wash over you.
​

How's that one?

EDIT: oh – and I like the red algae idea. Makes more sense if it's an extra growth - rather than a new type of fungus.