Resources

[woodelf]

A nice scolding. Very delicate to pull off.

 

[Wodan]

Pasture animals are getting into the same thing as cottages (which I posted in the other thread a bit ago. Still getting caught up in all the discussions. Probably won't finish today.)

Anyway, a somewhat inimical alien planet, no grass to speak of. You can't just put up a fence and release cattle like you can on Earth.

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.

Everything else would be agriculture or synthetic and made in a vat. As woodelf said: Tofu.

I don't know. Just talking here. We need a good dose of realism, but on the other hand, it needs to come down to the gameplay. We can rationalise just about anything, if we need to.

Wodan

 

[GRM7584]

Basic fact of agriculture vs pasture. Cattle (etc) require less labor but more acreage to support. On a cost/economic comparison, they are viable on Earth. On a new planet, they would simply be unfeasible. Especially one with things like mindworms. Beef etc would almost certainly be a luxury good. The poor cows would live their lives in pens inside the habitat city, and only a small amount of beef would result.

This is more or less what I was getting at, although *nothing* is just out there walking around...unless your cows can eat grass through space suits. Planet's atmosphere is a gasping death for organisms that are used to breathing earth's atmosphere, according to Deirdre...Anything out on planet's surface is either genetically engineered to survive, has a rebreather suit, or is in a contained atmospheric building. It's fairly easy to say "oh, we fiddled with the respiratory processes of the grains so they can adapt to the new atmosphere". Not so much for cows, although genetic engineering would have to be pretty advanced to be recreating cows from incomplete genetic data.

 

[GRM7584]

I'm starting to think of potential flora/fauna resources; any ideas? For the benefit of anyone who hasn't seen them or has forgotten the specifics:

Spoiler Centauri Empathy :

Observe the Razorbeak as it tends so carefully to the fungal blooms;
just the right bit from the yellow, then a swatch from the pink.
Follow the Glow Mites as they gather and organize the fallen spores.
What higher order guides their work? Mark my words: someone or something
is {managing} the ecology of this planet.

Spoiler Bio Lab :

Although Planet's native life is based, like Earth's, on right-handed
DNA, and codes for all the same amino acids, the inevitable chemical
and structural differences from a billion years of evolution in an
alien environment render the native plant life highly poisonous
to humans. Juicy, ripe grenade fruits may look appealing, but a
mouthful of organonitrates will certainly change your mind in a hurry.

Now, I would prefer that most flora/fauna resources on planet be hostile or unseen at start, revealed early on, and useless (as resources, not as plots) until an appropriate facility has been constructed (Biology Labs, Research Hospitals, etc.)
The primary purpose of most of these resources would be providing bonuses to the above-mentioned buildings, rather than constructing units or buildings, or providing a direct benefit (Healthy, Happiness).

Flora Resources
Grenade Fruit (Jungle/Native Brush features, reskinned spices?)
Bloomingstalks (Fungus, modified sugar?)

Spoiler Non-Canon Ideas :

Sea Truffles (colonial algae on the seafloor, reskinned Copper?)
Fungal Lillies (Blooms on sea fungus, reskinned cotton [warlords]?)
Spire Tree (carnivorous plant, modified timber resource [TAM mod, amongst others]?)

Fauna Resources
Razorbeak (Anywhere, would probably need to be from scratch)
Glow Mites (Fungus/Other Features, modified Wheat [sparkling texture]?)
Complacent Worms (Fungus, mindworms that do not react aggressively to other species, useful for training NLFs, probably need to be from scratch)

Spoiler Non-Canon Ideas :

Shellwyrms (modified clam/crab for land)
Six-legged Sheep (Joke)
Landwurm (modified whale for land, if its doable...something to put in desert tiles)
Rock Strider (modified elephant, something to put in rough terrain)

 

[Wodan]

So you're proposing to ignore the idea of Nutrients? Not disagreeing... just asking what your intention is.

Frankly, I wouldn't have a huge problem with that. Although, Nutrients more closely fits the concept of flood plains than it does a resource. We should probably consider that as an option. I don't think Planet should have any deserts... that's replaced by the "arid" concept. So, we could potentially retask floodplains, disassociate them from rivers, and let them be high-nutrient tiles. The graphics could be as easy as woodelf's excellent fungus he's doing now... just take the old nutrient symbol and clone it onto a normal "rainy" tile.

As for the concept of not having "plantation" resources at all, I'd say that fits in with the whole SMAC concept. We don't really need it, and your proposal makes a lot of sense.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

Actually, I've been paging through my old manual... there are a lot of new terrain tiles we'll have to create. Sargasso, Geothermal, Mount Planet, etc. (Yes, I know this is the wrong thread.)

Wodan

Edit: Unless you wanted to make them (or some of them) into resources. That would probably be a good consideration.

 

[GRM7584]

I think the general concensus was that landmarks were too interesting to leave out, or that at least a reasonable effort would go towards getting something along those lines in. And, on deserts, there are the Dunes, a landmark desert from SMAC. I didn't think floodplains would be going in, as they'd make Nutrients too easy to come by too early on.
As for Minerals/Nutrients/Energy bonus resources, I think it better to be more specific with the former and latter, and too easy to include the middle. Minerals will be represented with slightly (or a lot) more specific Strategic Resources, Energy will be abundant both from Base Facilities and Improvements, and Nutrients should be tough to come by early on. Perhaps later advances allow Nutrients to be harvested from native flora and fauna resources, I don't know; but as you can see in the quote from SMAC, alien life isn't believably something you can pick up and eat. Other quotes from SMAC indicate that the soil is perfect for earth plants, its just a matter of engineering them to the point where they can tolerate the alien atmosphere and environment.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

In RFC there is cultural areas which provide victory goals or python events. I wonder if it can be of some use for the landmarks.

 

[woodelf]

I imagine a good mapscript would put just one of every landmark on the map. I'm slowly learning python, but mapscripting may be a long way off.

 

[Wodan]

I think the general concensus was that landmarks were too interesting to leave out, or that at least a reasonable effort would go towards getting something along those lines in. And, on deserts, there are the Dunes, a landmark desert from SMAC.

Right. So, are the Dunes a terrain, or a "resource" that occurs on arid terrain? Could go either way.

As for Minerals/Nutrients/Energy bonus resources, I think it better to be more specific with the former and latter, and too easy to include the middle. Minerals will be represented with slightly (or a lot) more specific Strategic Resources, Energy will be abundant both from Base Facilities and Improvements, and Nutrients should be tough to come by early on.

Agreed... I read all those discussions.

However, I'm not sure I agree on not having Nutrients at all. The balance for SMAC had a lot of arid terrain. Without Nutrients, you simply would not be able to have a city there until you unlock Condensers or sea-based food improvements. In SMAC, a single Nutrient would allow you to "get by", even in the early game.

By and large, in SMAC, the overall average of unimproved terrain has a lot less food than we see in CIV. Say the average is 1 food. In Civ, the average is 2 food. This makes sense to me; it is an alien planet after all. But the gameplay has to work out... and Nutrients were how SMAC did that.

So we can't just say "Nutrients should be tough to come by early on". Either we have to keep the CIV balance of average of 2 food, or else we should keep the SMAC balance of 1 food plus Nutrients (in one form or another).

Perhaps later advances allow Nutrients to be harvested from native flora and fauna resources, I don't know; but as you can see in the quote from SMAC, alien life isn't believably something you can pick up and eat.

Two comments:
-- What I was getting at is that Nutrients could be a resource. The gameplay is basically akin to Wheat... you make a farm and it gives extra food. Instead of being a plant (wheat), the resource would represent extra nutrients ("plant food") in the soil (nitrogen etc). This does not represent a tile with inherent extra food (as Nutrients in SMAC or floodplains in CIV) but rather a resource that gives extra food with the proper improvement (as farmed Wheat in CIV). Note that you still need the Agriculture tech (or whatever we're calling it) to plant the farm.
-- As you have noted yourself, advanced techs unlock the ability to process alien flora resources into food we can digest. (Just stating it for completeness.)

Other quotes from SMAC indicate that the soil is perfect for earth plants, its just a matter of engineering them to the point where they can tolerate the alien atmosphere and environment.

Yeah, yesterday I read all that again.

Wodan

 

[Wodan]

I imagine a good mapscript would put just one of every landmark on the map. I'm slowly learning python, but mapscripting may be a long way off.

I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

 

[GRM7584]

Well, the mechanic for dealing with low-yield terrain would be greenhouses. Farms produce better food from the start, but need fresh water; greenhouses need nothing but always produce the same amount of food. Different tech lines would be used to improve the yields of each improvement, allowing both improvements to generate 3 food (at minimum) fairly early on. From a balance perspective, greenhouses will get a player by, but farms have higher yield potential; however, arid terrain is better for energy and (perhaps) more likely to contain strategic resources.

Edit: I've also played with mapscripting before, and I recommend taking a look at some of the scripts the CFC forum members have produced; tectonics is an interesting one to look at, as, iirc, that's the one which uses simulated wind direction and peak location to determine river placement and modifies terrain aridity.

 

[woodelf]

I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

I'd love it if you could tackle mapscripting! That could make everything easier.

 

[Gerikes]

I saw the note where someone suggested we begin with pregenerated maps. That seems totally fine. But, regardless, I could take on mapscripting if everyone thinks that's a good task for me to take on. I've installed all the relevant stuff. Had an error and I think that was my trouble yesterday, so I need to resolve that. But, I've looked at the code and "get it" so I think my learning curve is going to be pretty flat. But, anyway, it might be more important for me to chip in with the other features than map scripting.

Wodan

If you'd like to take a look at it, be my guest. It's definitely something that I have no experience whatsoever with, so it would be nice to have someone who does.

 

[Gerikes]

Finally, strategic resources should be created. Basically, we can create as many as we want, so add them in as you please, as long as they fall into one of these groups, which are represented by the Bonus' BonusClass:

Light Metals
Heavy Metals
Radioactives

(Note: I think we should start with three separate groups for now and if we want to change or add to them.)


Then, these following buildings will be created:

Assembly Plant (Theme: Heavy Metals) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Reactor Plant (Theme: Radioactives) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Electronics Plant (Theme: Light Metals) (+10% bonus to all unit production)
Armory (Theme: Light Metals) (+20% bonus to all land humanoid unit production)
Vehicle Plant (Theme: Light/Heavy Metals) (+20% bonus to all land vehicle units.
Hangar (Theme: Light Metals) (+20% bonus to all air units)
Shipyard (Theme: Heavy Metals) (+20% bonus to all naval units)
Launch Facility (Theme: Light Metals/Radioactives) (+20% bonus to all interstellar units [just trust me on this one ])

The different unit types will be determined by unit combat types. There are some tags I will need to create, but do as much as you can and tell me any tags that will be needed to finish.

This is from the v0.04 thread. I've got all the tags in place ready to commit, but noticed the following:

Having a 10% production increase means only getting 10% PER TURN. This will round off. Thus, if you have a 10% increase, you'll only get +1 production if you have at least 10 hammers already. You won't get a 20% increase unless you aready have 5 hammers. You won't get a 5% increase unless you already have 20 hammers, etc.

Is this ok? I don't see a way to make this a quick fix, but if it's not going to work then we might want to rethink making these production bonuses, or at least realize that it might take a ton of time to fix

 

[GRM7584]

Having a 10% production increase means only getting 10% PER TURN. This will round off. Thus, if you have a 10% increase, you'll only get +1 production if you have at least 10 hammers already. You won't get a 20% increase unless you aready have 5 hammers. You won't get a 5% increase unless you already have 20 hammers, etc.

Is this ok? I don't see a way to make this a quick fix, but if it's not going to work then we might want to rethink making these production bonuses, or at least realize that it might take a ton of time to fix

I was aware of this, but if it's a problem for others, the percentages could be increased or a new xml tag that added a set number of minerals only when producing a certain unit class (is that possible?) could be added.

 

[Gerikes]

I was aware of this, but if it's a problem for others, the percentages could be increased or a new xml tag that added a set number of minerals only when producing a certain unit class (is that possible?) could be added.

Unit class or unit combat type doesn't matter. It's just the round off problem to deal with. Not sure how I feel about a fixed amount, and I'd hate to say "Well, we can't fix it, let's just make them 25% to alleviate the problem".

I'll take a second look and see if there's not some way I can at least fudge the numbers to make them adhere to the percentages better.

Edit:

BTW, I chose Unit Combat Type over Unit Classes because Domain types would, IMO, be too limiting, and unit classes would just be annoying. We can at least play with it for now and if we find a reason why we would need it changed we can change it.

 

[GRM7584]

Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to increase it for the buildings which are specific to combat type; drydocks in civ 4 boost naval production by 50%, after all, and I think there should be a seperate building(s) for XP, so those combat-type specific production buildings won't be doing anything else but boost unit production in that case...it should be made worth the investment, for the player.

 

[Gerikes]

Well, it wouldn't be a stretch to increase it for the buildings which are specific to combat type; drydocks in civ 4 boost naval production by 50%, after all, and I think there should be a seperate building(s) for XP, so those combat-type specific production buildings won't be doing anything else but boost unit production in that case...it should be made worth the investment, for the player.

Alright, we'll work with 25% and 50% for now, and see how it goes. Saves me some work

 

[Maniac]

Time to add some extra resources I assume.

For starters Silver and Gold? Gives +1 happiness with Factory.

Razorbeak, Glowmites and Grenade Fruit. +1 happiness/health/planet? (but only if you're planet-friendly?)


I've been thinking about the idea that because of the break-up of the Unity factions don't have full access to the genomes of terran plants and animals. Then you could rediscover those genomes in the form of resources on the map by popping unity pods (and the data files contained within). Or you could discover a still functioning hydroponics pod which contains the last living specimen of a certain plant. There are two realism/story/suspension-of-disbelief problems with this though, which also exist with Civ4's plant and animal resources. Any ideas on how to solve these?
1) Why can't I move the DNA data to wherever I please?
2) Why am I limited to only one resource of that kind? Why can't I, after having discovered one of a certain resource, breed/grow as many animals/plants as I want to (at least after having Cloning)?
Similar problems exist with discovering a famous Old Earth movie/book in a unity pod cache.