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Resurrecting the Aifons - a sea-dwelling civ for FF

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by [to_xp]Gekko, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Good idea, let's start a poll to see who should start a poll to start a race ;) :p

    I've been watching this thread casually, so wouldn't know what the majority of the ideas are without a complete re-read. And I am sure people would rather I am getting bugs sorted out so that Vehem can play with the final toys for releasing the next version right now ;)
     
  2. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    ill compile the different ideas then :)
     
  3. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    What do you have against burocracy :D

    Your right though, its better that you finish up out new FF than compile a list of stuff about things. Now back onto buisness, I purpose we vote on who should start a poll to make a thread compiling all the ideas about the Aifons so we can vote on which ones we like :mwaha:

    -Edit
    Or that works too.
     
  4. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    As I understand it there was basically an elven nation which was closely tied to Nature and so had "seasons". During Summer (and probably Spring) it was ruled by the Summer Court - under Arendel. During Winter (and probably Autumn) it was ruled by the Winter Court - under Faeryl. These were also known as the Seelie and Unseelie courts I believe.

    With the Age of Ice however, winter lasted a little bit longer than it usually did. Faeryl obvious was quite happy about this and was reluctant to hand back power when Winter finally ended. This is possibly the main cause of a civil war between the Seelie and Unseelie courts.

    The two courts however do not account for all elves in the world. There were musings on another thread that a majority of the elves would be best described by a Neutral alignment with the two courts (with Arendel's idealism and Faeryl's betrayl of the old ways) being the "good" and "evil" ends of elven culture. Some elves would side with each court, but there were probably others that just stay out of the way. This view also gives a good justification for the two neutral elven leaders - both serve the Ljosalfar but aren't necessarily "good" in all cases.

    ====

    Looking at it that way, we've got Summer Elves and Winter Elves, each with many sub-sects and factions. The main civil war is between Summer and Winter, but each sect may or may not be involved to some degree. Some sects will have parted company with the courts long before the Age of Rebirth and whilst most are unimportant to the "big picture" - being too small to be of interest to the larger nations - there was one sect that saw Mulcarn's rise as a way to ensure the Winter Elves ruled the forests forever.

    They chose to leave their forest and aid the Illians, becoming servants in a manner similar to the Doviello. The Doviello were obviously the muscle and had great numbers, but the Elves were more subtle and skilled. In the end however, despite the fact that the old laws granted power to the Winter Court for so long as Winter remains upon the land, the Elves began to feel that Mulcarn's stasis was deeply unnatural and wrong for the world. Their existence was tied to the seasons and they could not rest easy whilst the balance was disrupted.

    Long before Kyorlin began his quest for the Godslayer, this group of elves struck desperately against the Illians, but had never seen the power of Mulcarn himself. They struck deep into the heart of the Illian lands, but were defeated utterly at Letum Frigus. They fled the field and were hounded by the Illians and the Doviello for the remainder of the Age of Ice.

    ===

    In the Age of Rebirth, they are a people with no home. Having sided with the God of Winter, they are hated by followers of Sucellus and despite having initially sought to increase the power of the Unseelie, their association with Mulcarn means they are not fully trusted by the Svartalfar either (again it's their service to Mulcarn that makes them shunned, rather than their eventual betrayal). They are also forever changed by their experience with Mulcarn. They rushed to serve one which they believed would bring them power and were nearly destroyed for it. They are now cold and calculating, almost callous in their methods. Their true goal is unclear, but they seem uninterested in the elven civil war unless they have something to gain from temporarily siding with either of the courts.

    ===

    Cold-Elves
    Cold, calculating, implacable.
    Highly specialized - members of the civ have specific skills that they hone (military, not city-specialist).
    Shunned - unable to follow FoL due to their betrayal of Nature.
    Winterborn - forever changed by experience with Mulcarn.
    Dictatorial - they serve no court and their leader defines their laws.
     
  5. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    I definitely support a Cold Elves race. fantasy games should ALWAYS have 3 elven races! it goes like:

    1) wood elves ( ljolsalfar )
    2) dark elves ( svartalfar )
    3) high elves ( where are these? --> cold elves will be fine, thank you ) :D
     
  6. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    Sounds cool.
     
  7. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    Pun intended? :D
     
  8. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    Well not to get to theological, but the concept of the Oak King (Summertide King) and the Holly King (Wintertide King) is a very old concept in many European pagan religions as well as modern neo-pagan ones.

    Perhaps that might make a really good set of Hero's or maybe a set of magical items relating to the Holly & Oak King. Maybe something on the order of the shield of the Oak King (which gets broken if one has ever heard Gwydion Pendderwen's song The Raven Is Calling) and the sword of the Holly King.

    Just a thought...
     
  9. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    change them to the Oak and Holly Queens and your set :D
     
  10. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

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    Not to set myself up to be 'flamed' :eek: But I always like the concept of the 'Pini' elves from Elfquest as wood elves because in most fantasy the only difference between Wood Elves and High Elves were their clothing.

    In my by-gone D&D age, I had the different Pini "low" elves (the wolf riders, the wave riders, the reindeer riders) being sort of like how I see the Hippus in that they aren't really into magic, not really into cities, sort of semi-nomadic but like the Mongols are some people that you don't want mad at you.

    Then I had the High Elves that to me were more of the Tolkein Elves that sort of harken back to that mythical "Golden Age" - I mean come on, in almost all fantasy, "High Elves" seem to be at the end of their age. They were more into superior units (quality versus quantity) as well as magic.

    I guess as a original D&D player (I started in 1975) it's hard not to see any 'evil' elves without thinking of the Drow. Yet 'classic' mythology of things like the 'wee people' can show that elves (fairies, brownies, what have you) can be very capricious against man. Plus, let's be honest, weren't the Prince and Princess of the elves in Hellboy II, the Golden Army a great example of Elves? You expect them to be like the Bannor and Good, but they are Mad As Hell and Not Going To Take It Anymore!(tm) and thus you get more of the Decius "evil" going on.

    One thing I like about the whole Elfquest story line about elves was it gives you a good reason for the 'fall' of Elves. Some stayed true to the old ways, others struck out on their own, others felt the need to delve into dark places in hopes of restoring the glory of the Elves.

    But enough of this! Time to go play! =)~
     
  11. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    Yes ;)

    But also, pun not intended, as in sounds sweet/excitin/etc.

    Double meanin kinda thing, ya know.
     
  12. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    I love concept of Drow myself. Totally evil elves dedicated to the goddess (or god in some fantasies) of Chaos. Totally badass, sh*t your pants evil. And they like war.
     
  13. Arctic Circle

    Arctic Circle Prince

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    I could not guess that from your avatar.. ;)

    Check out Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic. http://yafgc.shipsinker.com/index.php?strip_id=1 - for some Drow power.
     
  14. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    If I recall correctly, the Elves are relatively young in the FfH setting - younger than mankind at least (though the original humans weren't strictly as they are now - being immortal etc).

    *invokes Magister for clarification*
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    It depends on what you mean by the elves being young. Chances are that any individual elf would be much older than any given human, as they do age much more slowly than humans and live far longer.


    The elves and humanity have a common source, but diverged long ago. As humans write most of the history, they tend to say that the Elves broke off from humanity and so could be considered the "younger race." However, I consider the view that humans broke off from the elves (as the elves probably believe) to be just about as valid. Elven health, longevity (only Nemed and Gabella were immortal, their children were just very long lived), beauty, and strength were all present in the early generations of mankind. However, Man had more human-like qualities too, like a larger stature. Like in many cases of divergent evolution, you can't really say which group split from which, since they all split from a common ancestor. Elves are fewer generations removed from Nemed (since they don't mate until an age when humans would be barren), so they could argue that they are the real Mankind. Aifons would probably claim to be the real Mankind too, if any of them were still alive.

    Humans (well, human lore-masters) would say that the closeness to Sucellus changed the nature of the elves' ancestors to turn humans to elves, while humans maintained a near balance between the gods to keep them closer to their original design as a perfect balance of every element. Elves would probably say that humans were elves who did not stay close enough to the divine to retain their former glory, and thus deteriorated into lesser beings (and that some then deteriorated further into Orks). I think that the Elves viewed the Aifons, who stayed just as close to their god Danalin who was friendly with Sucellus, as less degenerate than humanity, but still not quite up to elven standards. Humanity was made of those who were not nearly as close to any god, probably serving many but less devoutly and with less perfect knowledge of whom they served. (Humans are dirty too. Elven cleanliness prevents diseases from spreading and keeps then very health and long lived, but also reduced their resistance so that they are very weak to human illnesses.)


    The Elves, Aifons, and Humans were clearly distinct groups by the middle of the Age of Dragons. However, believe they continued to diverge even after that, albeit more slowly. I believe that humans still often lived a couple centuries during the Age of Magic. Humans were also a bit larger then, or at least the Bannor were. The Bannor who emerged from hell were closer to Nemed and essentially "genetically superior" to other humans, but they intermarried soon afterward and the superiority didn't last.


    Various human races have also been deeply effected by their closeness to various gods, but they haven't been as close to their gods, haven't followed them as long, and may have switched gods many times throughout several generations. Closeness to Camulos (plus natural selection and shear brutality) made the Doviello larger and stronger, and probably much shorter lived, than other humans. Given time, these human races could become as distinct as humans and elves. Actually, those humans who stayed loyal go Bhall are now probably much more distinct, as Orks green skin and bone blades aren't found in any other race.



    Lizardmen, Centaurs, Lamia, Griffins, Pit Beasts, etc., were created by evil Patrian mages performing experiments on existing creatures (including various animals and humans) using Life/Body magic. Basically, they are Flesh Golems that are capable of reproducing. The more human-like of these were created using humans/elves/maybe aifons, and so still are descended from Nemed and have the divine spark.


    Dwarves are a different story. Assuming that the creation story involving Keldon Ki is correct, they are a clearly younger race as didn't exist until the Age of Magic. I'm not sure, but that King who imprisoned Keldon could have been Kyorlin, as he was the first to unite tribes/chiefdoms/minor kingdoms into a real kingdom/empire. I tend to prefer to think that the story isn't true though. If it were, it would strongly imply that Dwarves do not have souls/divine sparks. I don't like making them seem so inferior like that. Besides, if that were true, then the gods would not have a reason to seek their worship. They would not be able to adopt religions, or at least to have access to either divine or arcane spells. The civilopedia used to include the dwarf Arthendain negotiating with Sucellus for his soul, which would not be possible if he had none. If gods like Kilmorph could just create souls out of nothing to give the dwarves, then why would they seek to collect them from the living. I suppose that Dwarves could be reincarnated from human souls, but I prefer to think that Dwarves are just another race of the original mankind formed by those who dwalt underground and were close to Kilmorph. The tale of Kelon Ki could just be a myth or a parable. It could also be another joke that they tell to humans and then laugh at them for believing.
     
  16. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    Thanks - that's the part I was remembering. Seems it's more that "mankind is old" than "elvenkind is young", but in anycase, it's not Tolkien-esque with Elves as a dying "elder race".

    Some Earth theologies would argue that it's within $DIVINE_POWER 's ability to create a soul, but it is without value until the soul has lived. In that way, the gods (such as Kilmorph) would be able to add as many souls to the world as they liked, but each additional one would dilute the Gestalt - adding inexperienced souls to the mix.

    As the number of souls that can be in Creation at a time is somewhat limited by the number of bodies living at that time, the ideal way for the gods to gain power is to allow more "beings with the divine spark" to exist. This is pleasantly contradictory with the fact that the gods and their agents are often responsible for war between the civilizations, reducing the overall number of living beings.
     
  17. Villieldr

    Villieldr Chieftain

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    To clear up the debate on high-elves, wood-elves and dark-elves; look to the leaders. In most of my time reading fantasy books I've seen high-elves as the arcane source of the light elf community (Thessa), wood-elves as the creative and more spiritual type {which can be interpretted from the disciple promotion from the Spiritual trait} (Arendel) and in some fantasy settings there were the 'wild-elves' ie Amelanchier. As stated by the mods of FFH and FF, the dark-elves are embodied by the Svartalfar (Svart-black, álf-elf; Icelandic/Nordic {was nice seeing in the game :D }). So even their name gives into their deceitful stereotype of a 'drow' or 'dark-elf'.

    As for an Aquatic race or water-elf... I think it would be interesting altho the original method of having them underwater would be hard for the AI to understand. An Atlantian civ tho could be plausible. "Race that ages ago survived and explored the depths of the oceans found an evil lurking within the depths. Corruption and chaos turned the nation in on itself whos leaders had one option; an ancient spell requiring the concentration of their entire race. The spell took hold over the great civilization and in an instant they vanished. But all was not as it seemed to the great empire; for their magic was based on the water around which they lived for so many ages. Without rain an ocean cannot be formed and without an ocean no rain will fall. The spell once cast became their prison, their impending doom; cut off from the world around them they began withering; dying. And worse... the evil they sought to escape followed them in their dreams. As their race died and their civilization withered the great magic protecting them began to fail..."

    2 new civ rulers- Good untainted version and evil tainted version (anyone remember that Cathulu movie with the island of fish people???)

    Units recieve waterwalking promotion can see "hidden" water lairs, similar to shipwreaks only in deeper ocean squares instead of just coasts. World-spell: insert random title (just got off work okay? I don't feel to creative yet) causes the civ to 'vanish' for a number of turns equal to their capitals population, the AI and other players see a 'civ has been destroyed' message, cities stop production, units on the map can still move about (great generals can then still use their recruit ability as can militia to for a moderate defence for when the civ returns). This spell is designed to be defensive in nature hence the stopping of production (also with the legend it required all the concentration of the civ to preform).

    I do like the idea of more "farmable" sea tiles like the kelp (adds ?food/?hammer as kelp can be used as material for items). This then would benifit all civs tho Lanun/these guys would gain more use like the Lanun already do from water tiles.

    *shrugs* Its not much, may have already been posted and needs some work into the history to correctly function in FFH/FF. And yes... I know i'm a newly registered user but hey... I fell in love with FFH about 4 months ago so... don't flame me to bad? :p

    Its a terrific game you've all created, keep up the excelent work. :)
     
  18. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    Dw, were not really into flaming here apparently =D

    Anyways, It'd be nice if you guys could move the cold elf disscussion to a new topic or something, seeing as this really isn't the place :D
     
  19. rocklikeafool

    rocklikeafool Warmaster

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    LOL! That comic is great. I even decided to sig it.
     
  20. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    Welcom to the forums Villieldr :wavey:

    i love your idea of the world spell 'vanishing' the civ only to have them reappear later.

    im thinking it could be like a prolonged mega defence.

    lets call it "Call of the Waves" for now.

    All units are teleported to the civs cultural borders (or nearst city)
    All units gain temporary invisibility
    All cities and cultural borders as well as improvements etc appear to dissapear for other civs (as you say a 'Aifons has been destroyed message' would be good)
    all production in cities is stopped, happyness and unhealthyness in all cities is maxed.
    over the period of the spell perhaps allow cities to auto spawn random units

    OR

    it could teleport your entire civilization (cities and improvements) to a completely different section of ocean completely bewildering enemies attacking you. perhaps allow the player to decide where to place them.

    OR

    reveals all the world oceans permanently
     

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