Return of Carthage, with who?

[chronoturner]

Carthage
Unique Ability: Phoenician Legacy
Gain extra money from international trading routes. Cities founded on a coast gain extra money from commercial hubs and cothons.

Unique Unit: Quadrireme
Replaces the trireme. More powerful than the standard trireme but costs more to produce and maintain. Has more movement range as well.

Unique Infrastructure: Cothon (replaces the harbour)
Cothons can be made on land so long as it is adjacent to the city center. Produces gold and food. In addition, produces extra gold if it is adjacent to a commercial hub as well.

Leaders
For leaders, I'm putting forth the following candidates
Dido: Dido is historically Carthage's founder, and would be a returning leader from Civ 2/5. Would be focused on spreading her religion through trade routes/overseas. Would be a competitor of Indonesia in that regard.
Mago I: Mago founded the Magonid dynasty, and helped establish it's position as the power of the Western Mediteranean, although he could not separate ties from Tyre. Would be a more naval focused civ by holding down tight spots, all the while getting enough money from cothons and commercial hubs to maintain the large navy.
Hanno: Hanno the Navigator is suspected to have navigated all the way towards Gabon, although most say it was only towards Eastern Morocco. Whatever the case, Hanno would allow for an easy exploration based gameplay with trade routes increasing tourism and culture, putting him onto a cultural victory.

I did not add Hannibal, as he is over used, and I wanted to put some lesser known Carthagians on the spotlight instead of Hannibal. He is still a great leader, but I think he can retire to a great general.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Unique Unit: Quadrireme
Replaces the trireme. More powerful than the standard trireme but costs more to produce and maintain. Has more movement range as well.

The Quadrireme is already the early naval ranged unit.

I did not add Hannibal, as he is over used, and I wanted to put some lesser known Carthagians on the spotlight instead of Hannibal. He is still a great leader, but I think he can retire to a great general.

The only reason I would want him back is for his elephants. That and the fact that having a UU as part of a leader ability goes hand in hand with him. Certainly Carthaginian War Elephants would suit him more than Redcoats for Victoria (although I understand why they gave her them).

 

[Zaarin]

I think Gilgabro is a bit different from Dido. He was only mentioned in an epic that obviously didnt aim to record history. On the other hand, Dido was mentioned by many historians, so she was more historical than mythological in nature.

Greek historians. She's completely unattested in Carthaginian sources.

For leaders, Hannibal is a great choice (and one of my favorite people in history), and his father Hamilcar is another great choice. For someone new, the entire Magonid dynasty was pretty interesting and would be more...Carthaginian, by which I mean less militaristic and more about exploration, trade, and naval superiority. I'd prefer not to see Dido; her historicity is highly suspect, her only attestation being through hostile foreign histories.

 

[halfhalfharp]

Greek historians. She's completely unattested in Carthaginian sources.

For leaders, Hannibal is a great choice (and one of my favorite people in history), and his father Hamilcar is another great choice. For someone new, the entire Magonid dynasty was pretty interesting and would be more...Carthaginian, by which I mean less militaristic and more about exploration, trade, and naval superiority. I'd prefer not to see Dido; her historicity is highly suspect, her only attestation being through hostile foreign histories.

True. There are just a few surviving Carthaginian sources, and they were either already translated into greek or not historically related. So they can neither comfirm her existence nor disprove it. And I also understand your point of her being a more mythological based leader

But of course trade is a very important part of their strength, as I have intergrated into my design. For naval exploration, it probably wont be too useful but whatever it is not a bad inclusion to Carthage. I suppose naval supremacy is already included in my design of UU, too much sea-bound will not balance the civ.

Carthage
Unique Ability: Phoenician Legacy
Gain extra money from international trading routes. Cities founded on a coast gain extra money from commercial hubs and cothons.

Unique Unit: Quadrireme
Replaces the trireme. More powerful than the standard trireme but costs more to produce and maintain. Has more movement range as well.

Unique Infrastructure: Cothon (replaces the harbour)
Cothons can be made on land so long as it is adjacent to the city center. Produces gold and food. In addition, produces extra gold if it is adjacent to a commercial hub as well.

Leaders
For leaders, I'm putting forth the following candidates
Dido: Dido is historically Carthage's founder, and would be a returning leader from Civ 2/5. Would be focused on spreading her religion through trade routes/overseas. Would be a competitor of Indonesia in that regard.
Mago I: Mago founded the Magonid dynasty, and helped establish it's position as the power of the Western Mediteranean, although he could not separate ties from Tyre. Would be a more naval focused civ by holding down tight spots, all the while getting enough money from cothons and commercial hubs to maintain the large navy.
Hanno: Hanno the Navigator is suspected to have navigated all the way towards Gabon, although most say it was only towards Eastern Morocco. Whatever the case, Hanno would allow for an easy exploration based gameplay with trade routes increasing tourism and culture, putting him onto a cultural victory.

I did not add Hannibal, as he is over used, and I wanted to put some lesser known Carthagians on the spotlight instead of Hannibal. He is still a great leader, but I think he can retire to a great general.

All good ideas, worthing their own post I supposed. But I guess we can at least discuss my design before throwing in yours.

And Quadrireme is already in the game. It should be the Quinquemere if you are up for a unique naval unit.

The Quadrireme is already the early naval ranged unit.

The only reason I would want him back is for his elephants. That and the fact that having a UU as part of a leader ability goes hand in hand with him. Certainly Carthaginian War Elephants would suit him more than Redcoats for Victoria (although I understand why they gave her them).

Very agree. I really hope that they can bring uinques specific to a leader.

 

[chronoturner]

The Quadrireme is already the early naval ranged unit.

And Quadrireme is already in the game. It should be the Quinquemere if you are up for a unique naval unit.

Oof, sorry. I mistook quadrireme for quinquemere when writing it. Suppose the Qu-start threw me off there.

All good ideas, worthing their own post I supposed. But I guess we can at least discuss my design before throwing in yours.

Was this not a post discussing possible civilization ideas for Carthage? If not, I'm sorry! I must've misread it, which is my fault.

The only reason I would want him back is for his elephants. That and the fact that having a UU as part of a leader ability goes hand in hand with him. Certainly Carthaginian War Elephants would suit him more than Redcoats for Victoria (although I understand why they gave her them).

I think that Carthagian War Elephants, although certainly iconic, do not reflect the history of Carthage as a whole. Carthage was primarily a naval power, and I think an inclusion of Hannibal and his elephants could possibly detract from the rest of their history prior to that point. In addition, the elephants did not perform all that well, if what I'm reading is correct, and many perished as they crossed the alps. Although elephants would suit him for a UU, I do agree, it is at the cost of other more worthy candidates in my mind who would reflect Carthage as a civilization far better than Hannibal did.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I think part of the reasoning behind providing Hannibal and his elephants is simply meeting people's expectations.

At least half of the limited number of people from the general public who even know where Carthage is are going to expect to be able to relive its most famous exploits.

I know it's irritating, but I've met people whose main source of pre-modern historical knowledge is Age of Empires. (What do they teach them in these schools!?!)

I can see it now: "what is this UU? Some dumb early boat? No one uses navies in this game. Mr. Tramples and I are gonna cross the Alps n' squash some Romans!"

Consider also that war elephants are only present in this game as UUs. W/o an elephant UU for Hannibal, that expectation cannot be met in the game as it currently stands.

The Total War games emphasized Carthaginian elephants. The BBC and History Channel have done features on them. Vin Diesel is trying to make a Hannibal movie.

And that's about it. Unless people have done their reading, they're not going to know or care about Magonids or quinquiremes or Hanno the Navigator, as important as they are.

If we're to receive Carthage at all, it should:

1) Be fun to play
2) Meet people's expectations
3) Gently educate players about 1-2 things they might not have known about Carthage.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think that Carthagian War Elephants, although certainly iconic, do not reflect the history of Carthage as a whole. Carthage was primarily a naval power, and I think an inclusion of Hannibal and his elephants could possibly detract from the rest of their history prior to that point. In addition, the elephants did not perform all that well, if what I'm reading is correct, and many perished as they crossed the alps. Although elephants would suit him for a UU, I do agree, it is at the cost of other more worthy candidates in my mind who would reflect Carthage as a civilization far better than Hannibal did.

Quinquereme is fine for a naval UU I agree. I even agree that they should get the Cothon and have early water exploration and trading bonuses as well. The more Phoenician in origin, the better. That's why you leave the military part and the elephants to Hannibal's ability.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm bored of Carthage. Euro history anecdotes don't mean much when your perspective is widened. If all they have left as a selling point is elephants, we have India and Khmer for that fix.

I have a suspicion that Phoenicia is more likely to be added this time than Carthage. And despite misgivings, I'd be fine with that. They could even make Dido a second leader and it would effectively kill two birds with one stone.

 

[Zaarin]

I'm bored of Carthage. Euro history anecdotes don't mean much when your perspective is widened. If all they have left as a selling point is elephants, we have India and Khmer for that fix.

I have a suspicion that Phoenicia is more likely to be added this time than Carthage. And despite misgivings, I'd be fine with that. They could even make Dido a second leader and it would effectively kill two birds with one stone.

A. Carthage isn't European.
B. The non-Carthaginian Phoenicians have no leaders who are more than names on stone. Excuse me, they have one: Hiram I of Tyre. You know what we know about him? According to 2 Kings he sold Solomon some lumber and skilled craftsman. Now that is a big personality. Sure, you can point to figures like Amanitore, but the difference is that we don't have other options for Nubia. We do for Carthage.
C. If the Carthaginians are an "anecdote" of European history, then so are the Persians. Or the Spartans, for that matter--I mean, wasn't Sparta an "also ran"? Except Carthage was a lot more successful than Sparta and certainly on par with Persia (though Persia's influence lasted longer, I grant that).
D. A lot of influential people were Carthaginian, including St. Augustine and Roman Emperor Septimius Severus.

 

[halfhalfharp]

I'm bored of Carthage. Euro history anecdotes don't mean much when your perspective is widened. If all they have left as a selling point is elephants, we have India and Khmer for that fix.

I have a suspicion that Phoenicia is more likely to be added this time than Carthage. And despite misgivings, I'd be fine with that. They could even make Dido a second leader and it would effectively kill two birds with one stone.

A. Carthage isn't European.

That explains all.

Carthage was among one of the Phoenician colonies actually, so personally I don't see the difference of adding Carthage/Phoenician.

 

[The Kingmaker]

That explains all.

Carthage was among one of the Phoenician colonies actually, so personally I don't see the difference of adding Carthage/Phoenician.

I'd say it's somewhat akin to having both Brazil and Portugal.

Same language, one colonized the other.

One was smaller but renowned for exploring the seas, the other is large and eclectic, with a hodgepodge of people from different ethnic backgrounds.

 

[halfhalfharp]

I'd say it's somewhat akin to having both Brazil and Portugal.

Same language, one colonized the other.

One was smaller but renowned for exploring the seas, the other is large and eclectic, with a hodgepodge of people from different ethnic backgrounds.

True for Brazil and Portugal.
But the importance to separate them into distinct entities is based on their differences, e.g. the ethicity of latin american vs european whites.

For Phoenicia and Carthage, there are too few pieces of information for us to draw such a conclusive difference so I guess we can kind of blurr that part.

 

[Lord Lakely]

.
Sure, you can point to figures like Amanitore, but the difference is that we don't have other options for Nubia.

Yes, we do. Amanirenas is an excellent leader, whose legend is pretty well-attested.

As for my prefered Carthaginian leader, um.... guess.

 

[chronoturner]

Yes, we do. Amanirenas is an excellent leader, whose legend is pretty well-attested.

As for my prefered Carthaginian leader, um.... guess.

Oof, thats a though one. Let me guess...
Hannibal?

 

[halfhalfharp]

Oof, thats a though one. Let me guess...
Hannibal?

lol look at his icon.

 

[chronoturner]

lol look at his icon.

That's the joke. I was trying to make a joke.
Well, anyways, back to the topic.
I'd say a mixed Phoenician-Carthaginian civilisation could work, but is probably not going to happen. If they'd wanted to do that, they probably would have done it already, I feel.