[BTS] Returning Newbie Monarch Shadow Game

Boguely

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Hello everyone!

I played regularly many moons ago, making use of this forum and the guides/advice that were common back then. After a long journey through other gaming and life in general, I have circled back to this old favorite and try to improve my play. I've spent some time reading through the extensive guide at the top of this page as well as a few of the other shadow games active right now (which I think are an awesome way to teach/learn!), and I think I've got some general tenets to work off of. I was hoping to siphon off some more of your collective wisdom and start building good habits with shadow game of my own. I look forward to your advice!

Settings:
Monarch
Fractal
No Huts/Events
Normal Speed
Temperate Climate
Random civ/leader

Spoiler 4000BC :


I feel quite blessed by RN-Jesus! HC with marble to start! My initial thought is: either SIP or settle 1E. If I move the Settler, it looks I would give up 4FP and 2 riverside forested grasslands for grassland pigs, suspiciously unforested plains, forested plains, and 3 mystery tiles. I imagine if I stayed in place and let the dry corn and floodplains carry the capital, the pigs will likely be the target for a quick second city.

Assuming there are no other obvious options, I'd move the Quecha 1 SE to get more info first.

What do y'all think?
 
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lymond

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Note: If you copy the text from the BBCode field in Imgur you can paste it right into your post. Voila, pic!

Little bit torn on this start. SIP is such a good bureau cap that I'm not inclined to move from that spot - and you are already on a PH. AH maybe ignored early. With that said, pigs is awesome food. Q 1NW may seems logical to me as it would give info that may sway a possible move North. Settle on the marble is even a decent option.

One thing that is clear is there are no other resources in the SIP BFC, but SIP is quite strong. (unless deer maybe, but this does not appear to be deer country)

Post a save.
 

Boguely

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Note: If you copy the text from the BBCode field in Imgur you can paste it right into your post. Voila, pic!

I was trying to figure that out...thanks! And the T0 save is attached.

Q 1NW may seems logical to me as it would give info that may sway a possible move North. Settle on the marble is even a decent option.

Do you get the bonus hammer if you settle on the marble? Or if not...is it just that it's less important if you can get the corn and the pigs AND something else (if the Quechua finds something)?
 

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lymond

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I was trying to figure that out...thanks! And the T0 save is attached.
Well, I'd go ahead and implement it :)



Do you get the bonus hammer if you settle on the marble? Or if not...is it just that it's less important if you can get the corn and the pigs AND something else (if the Quechua finds something)?

Yes, you do get a bonus hammer. Basically, you get what you see..simple as that. The exception would be when the terrain is altered from settling on the tile such as a flood plain or forest. Other examples are settling on bananas or sugar which gives an extra +1:food: to the center tile. Settling on riverside wine gives +1:commerce: or +2:commerce: if you are FIN. Riverside PH wine gives +1:hammers: and +1:commerce: (or 2 if FIN). Marble and Stone PHs give +2:hammers:!
 

Boguely

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There were some deer, but not inside the BFC:

Spoiler :


If I SIP, a second city on the grassland hill could make use of the pigs and deer (I think I'm leaning this way). Alternatively, 2N would get all three food resources in the capital. What do you think?
 

Pangaea

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Intuitively, I'd probably SIP here. The pig is a great tile, but it's a little awkward here, and you move away from the river with uncertainty about what you gain. With SIP you are riverside for health and easier connection (for trade routes), and you do have the corn (sadly not wet), plus 5 floodplains. If you were to move 1E, you lose 3 of the FPs. For a cottage capital, which is good to learn if you don't know about it yet, SIP is a good one. FPs are great for cottages, and the corn will be wet post-Civil Service with a farm on one of the riverside plains tiles.

There is coast north so you may not want to settle on and thus kill the green hill, and possibly seafood. But exploration will tell more here. Perhaps you want to split up the deer and pig, and perhaps you want to settle the second city downriver instead. It sure looks like a better spot than tundra and plains plus a poor food source (until border expansions, it's not even forested). SIP also saves the forest 1E, which isn't huge, but still nice.

Don't think copper or iron can show up naturally (on normal map scripts at least) on green hills, so the curious naked green hill 1S may just be naked.
 
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Fippy

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Tundra deer is weak in general, with other :food: resis around it plays no role for settling decisions.

With HC you could start building Qs at 5:hammers: (instead of a worker), but i guess cheesy UU rushes are not that helpful for shadow games ;)

Forests are valuable early for expansion, moving 2n removes tons of them from your BFC and it's always something to consider.
If you want pigs 1e would be more logical, keeps a 2:hammers: city tile and many forests.
But losing river tiles (including 3 floodplains) weakens Bureaucracy potential.

1n would also be possible as best long-term capital,
if there was a plains hill there too this would become a no-brainer :)

Losing 2:health: from no fresh water can safely be ignored usually (unless there are too many BFC floodplains).
Often newer players give :health: too much importance in their decisions.

Overall i suggest it's most important to learn about possible wrong moves (like 2n),
plenty discussion can be had about SIP or 1e or 1n and they mostly depend on playstyle.
No obvious winner, allthou high level players are unlikely to give up plains hill settling.
 

Boguely

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Thanks for the input, everyone! I went for the SIP and did some exploring.

Spoiler :


I found some more pigs downriver as well as Churchill's archer.

The Quechua rush is tempting, but to your point, Fippy, I imagine there is more learning to be done playing a little more straight up. I went for the worker build first.

For tech, I went straight for BW since I start with Agriculture and there is no AH resource in my BFC. Currently the worker will have time to farm the corn and a floodplain before getting to chopping (if my math is right). After BW I figure AH should be next in anticipation of settling my second city.

Speaking of cities, I marked the two sites that make the most sense to me right now. Together they can work 6 of the capital's cottage tiles, and they each snag two more food resources. I am thinking the southwest site makes sense to settle first since it won't require any roads and I am pretty solid on the location. The northeast can come soon after, once I do a little more scouting in that area.

Let me know if I've made any mistakes so far (or if I'm going too fast or too slow between posts). Thanks again for your help, everyone!
 

Pangaea

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Looks like a great area. Early for dotmapping and those are fine spots, though I'd probably prefer 1W next to the corn instead. Saves the green hill, auto-irrigates the corn, and opens up the possibility for splitting the food in case there is good stuff further east (looks like there is a river nearby). A city could then be put on the desert tile, for example.

The Incas are so incredibly strong, though, it's almost like having 3 traits. The unique granary ensures early border pops even without religion.

Hopefully there is a nice spot near the floodplains too for a cottage grower/support city. Otherwise there is always the option of putting it on the green river or the plains next to, which can work three FP cottages. Just keep in mind possible seafood north.
 

lymond

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I def agree with 1E of corn, but would add a note here that hill pigs will get border pop from Cuzco as well.

Pigs wheat spot is nice.

edit: looks good so far. play until your worker improves corn. I'm inclined to go to POT after BW since the two marked cities have farm resources that can be worked.

Keep scouting tight. Q can go maybe 1SW then start heading NW>N from there.

Yep, Q rush is not very educational, but I would be very tempted to worker steal/choke a nearby AI like Churchy.
 
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Boguely

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I found Churchill's borders, a little further north:

Spoiler :


That worker has two turns left on that farm, so I will probably go for the steal. He also has stone in his capital and gold nearby...not sure how that should affect my disposition toward him.

I'm inclined to go to POT after BW...

POT = Pottery? I should have time for that if I settle the second city 1E of that southern corn.
 

lymond

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Pottery yup

Worker steal should time perfect to finishing corn which you can then pillage, hopefully for a little gold.

New Q can go fogbust that new city site. (he can then scout more or help press Church once that city is settled) Another Q for scouting E and stuff.

BW is not in for a few turns and your worker needs something to do. While mines are not a priority at all early, best thing I think is building a grass mine 1S of Cuzco. I'd rather not waste worker turns on farming an FP that I know I want cottaged. Mine at least helps some with settler production.

I'd build 2 more Qs before starting settler which should put you at size 3 or 4. As mentioned, one will scout and bust the E areas. The next one can move NW of Cuzco to scout some and maybe help with Church stuff.

After worker steal that Q can move around 2 ring of London to check resources and spy city for settler. (avoid moving adjacent to city for now unless you can steal or trap a worker) ha..the finer arts of choking cities is not something I usually address in these games.
 

Pangaea

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Small point, and you're probably on top of it, but don't forget to change worked tiles in the capital now that the corn has been improved. Can see from the image that the silk is being worked at the moment. Should have been done last turn actually, as the worker is free to move this turn.
 

Boguely

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I'd build 2 more Qs before starting settler which should put you at size 3 or 4.

Just so I’m clear...that would make the current build order: Q (the one I’m building in the most recent post), Settler, Q, Q, Settler, right?

@Pangaea I am indeed keeping an eye on the capital tiles. I switched to the silk for this next turn to get the size 2 pop and the Quechua build to finish on the same turn. Does that make sense?

Im at work for the next 7 hours so probably won’t get around to another update until sometime tomorrow.
 

lymond

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Just so I’m clear...that would make the current build order: Q (the one I’m building in the most recent post), Settler, Q, Q, Settler, right?

Yep, or just one more Q. Regardless start settler at size 3. You will start chopping immediately after the mine. Forest 2S1W of Cuzco is good to chop first (increased chance of regrowth due to adjacency), then chop forest 1N of that.

I am indeed keeping an eye on the capital tiles. I switched to the silk for this next turn to get the size 2 pop and the Quechua build to finish on the same turn. Does that make sense?
.

Nope, does not make sense here. Always work your strong food resource tiles and don't slow your growth at this point. You might get nifty with tiles later but at this point slowing your growth is slowing your production. The speed of that Q is rather irrelevant. The growth of your city is quite relevant.
 

Boguely

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Spoiler :


Tiwanku is founded in the south. I started a worker there and should be able to build a Terrace after that. I guess the worker should start on cottages while he waits for AH (which should come next, I think?). There are some crabs up in the northeast coast that warrant further investigation, but I think I still like the marked cite for the third city.

Spoiler :


Meanwhile I was able to snag Churchill's loan worker and scout out his lands. He did not have a settler in the capital when I did the first lap. Should I sue for peace and just have my boys circle around his borders waiting to pounce?
 

Pangaea

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Tiwanku is founded in the south. I started a worker there and should be able to build a Terrace after that.
Maybe this is a playstyle thing, but I don't like to start workers in size 1 cities. Takes a long time, and you can't whip. Due to the workersteal, maybe you got up the corn pretty quickly, which helps, but I'm still not a big fan of the size 1 worker thing (except in the capital early on, obviously).

Somewhat similar story in the capital, but you'll know details of timing better than me here. However, I'm thinking that in these situations it's nice to grow the capital to 4 and then 2-pop the settler. Put overflow into a worker/settler, grow back on Qs/something else, and then maybe 4>2 pop the next settler again. Once you get up cottages on the FPS, though, the capital should stop being whipped (also in general, don't whip the capital too hard). You want it to grow onto its strong tiles, and grow large by 1AD. Depends a bit on happiness and HRule, but let's say size 12-14 by 1AD is a good target for such a great Buro spot. Tiwanaku in the south can work two cottages.

At this point, you could probably just get out some Qs and put Churchill out of his misery. Not the best from a learning perspective really (neither are Incas due to their extreme strengths), but you've already crippled him, and it's a very nice city. Otherwise, wait and maybe he'll build Pyramids for you.
 
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