[RD] Reuters quote + big tech censorship

TheMeInTeam

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The White House’s direct engagement with the companies to mitigate the challenge has not been previously reported. Biden’s chief of staff Ron Klain has previously said the administration will try to work with Silicon Valley on the issue. “Disinformation that causes vaccine hesitancy is going to be a huge obstacle to getting everyone vaccinated and there are no larger players in that than the social media platforms,” said the source, who has direct knowledge of the White House’s efforts. “We are talking to them … so they understand the importance of misinformation and disinformation and how they can get rid of it quickly.” The Biden White House is especially trying to make sure such material “does not start trending on such platforms and become a broader movement,” the source said.

Previous cases against big tech on 1st amendment grounds have failed, but it appears that Facebook/Google/Twitter are altering policy/making decisions based on government directives and/or communication with government agencies. Per a few articles the Biden administration has been pushing tech companies to suppress misinformation/people doubting safety/efficacy of vaccines.

This is awkward timing for Facebook/government, since Robert Kennedy is running a lawsuit claiming some blockage/ad removal stuff using interpretations of CDC data that apparently Facebook/CDC don't like.

The problem for big tech now is that they are no longer "private entities" for the purposes of censorship lawsuits. Case law dating back to even anti-KKK stuff has made it clear that the government can't use private/3rd party actors to bypass the constitution. In seeing statements by Facebook like "they proactively reached out to the government" and now the white house's chief of staff saying similar, it is an open admission of collaboration/collusion to censor.

This is well outside the bounds of 230, since these are now government agents in the context of this action. How will the courts react? While vaccinations are a good idea, the idea of public debate/open discussion is important. You need "informed" in "informed consent" to be possible, and that means having access to multiple sources of information. CDC's inconsistent application of standards for cause of death + push to suppress this is fishy.

History suggests some basis for being skeptical of government institutions on their own: 1976 swine flu outbreak - Wikipedia, so I'm not a fan of shutting down challenges to CDC conclusions based on CDC's own data (or any available data). Especially when even the legal protection is a parallel.
 
Their policies are clearly not defined by morality, as shown by the fact that they only took down the Tatmadaw's site yesterday, 3 weeks after they violently took control. The only answer I can see is to not use them, and they will die. I think the answer has to be distributed networks where no one has the power to take them down, but it will mean that no one can take down miss information.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/02/01/dodgers-anti-vaccine-protest-facebook/

I did not know of this event, so I had to inform myself before commenting. This protest seems to have been responsible for denying other people access to be vaccinated and aims to disrupt vaccination. I feel this goes beyond trying to have an open informed discussion.

The reuters article talks about diss- and miss-information. Now, it all depends where the boundries are set on this one. If it for instance regards the methods with which the CDC determines cause of death, those are subjects that has to be able to be discussed in an informed manner, because it's closely related to policy and that should always be open to discussion.

If it regards misinformation about the vaccine, add a link to scientific sources where people can inform themselves. Sure, 99% of the people who are looking to be misinformed won't accept scientific evidence, but they'll find support for their delusions anyway with or without facebook.

I believe the biggest scare factor of vaccins is people not knowing how they work. And if you can reach only 1% of those, that's 1% who gets informed instead of being driven of to more shadier internet back alleys.
 
Their policies are clearly not defined by morality, as shown by the fact that they only took down the Tatmadaw's site yesterday, 3 weeks after they violently took control. The only answer I can see is to not use them, and they will die. I think the answer has to be distributed networks where no one has the power to take them down, but it will mean that no one can take down miss information.

That's the likely end conclusion, the consumers of information have to decide what is or isn't. It's annoying when a company does it of its own volition...but it's outright dangerous when the government itself starts doing so.

I did not know of this event, so I had to inform myself before commenting. This protest seems to have been responsible for denying other people access to be vaccinated and aims to disrupt vaccination. I feel this goes beyond trying to have an open informed discussion.

Insofar as obstruction of people is a crime. But taking down discussion of committing an explicit/specific crime is different from the widescale censorship the government/big tech are collaborating.

Note that the protest itself is a legal grey area. It is not okay to claim that protests obstructing people is or isn't justified by subjective preferences. I would broadly say that there *should* be legal standards limiting the ability of protests to obstruct/constrain movement of others. I also would expect that rule to be enforced the same way each time, regardless of the nature/motivation of protest.

I believe the biggest scare factor of vaccins is people not knowing how they work. And if you can reach only 1% of those, that's 1% who gets informed instead of being driven of to more shadier internet back alleys.

Vaccines broadly carry some risk, but that risk is so tiny compared to the balance of risk when not taking them that choosing the large risk over the miniscule one is nonsense.

However, COVID does have a few red flags:
  • This vaccine was put to market much faster than usual.
  • This vaccine is relatively novel in its design/function/type of virus.
  • Manufacturers have been granted legal protection for complications (excepting "willful misconduct") as an emergency measure, which is not typical for vaccines as a whole since they are not done in context of emergency.
  • CDC treatment of deaths near time of vaccination is different from CDC treatment of deaths of patients who test positive for COVID. Scrutiny for one is much higher than the other.
With all that in mind, even the most aggressive/unrealistic estimation of deaths from receiving the vaccine is still tiny, relative to death rate from COVID itself. Especially for those who are considered at-risk for COVID. What we don't know are other side effects/long-term complications that are not lethal but still might influence whether an otherwise healthy person would choose to risk COVID vs the vaccine...since for them the risk from COVID is also relatively small (in contrast to things like Ebola which have a much larger chance to kill anybody who gets them). Aggressively shutting down "misinformation" which may or may not actually be misinformation when you have one centralized source deciding what constitutes "misinformation" is dangerous territory.

Running afoul of this stuff is not okay: Informed Consent | Encyclopedia.com

Considering we've been dealing with COVID for over a year, "emergency" provisions are not acceptable in the US, and have also been flagrantly violated in places like Canada already wrt curfew for example. If something is considered to be misinformation, that can be said without snap-removing potentially accurate/relevant information on the grounds that it's "misinformation". It might or might not be, but we don't need a ministry of truth determining that for us.
 
CDC treatment of deaths near time of vaccination is different from CDC treatment of deaths of patients who test positive for COVID. Scrutiny for one is much higher than the other.
I wonder what you are getting at here. In the UK there are really strict rules about reporting adverse reactions, much stricter than disease reporting, and that is generally considered a good thing.
 
I wonder what you are getting at here. In the UK there are really strict rules about reporting adverse reactions, much stricter than disease reporting, and that is generally considered a good thing.

I can't access that link (only available in UK?), but it's not clear to me why standards should be much stricter. Either you can demonstrate direct cause or you can't. Prior to that you just have correlations/anecdotes that can (if they happen with enough frequency) merit working to prove/disprove those causes.
 
I can't access that link (only available in UK?), but it's not clear to me why standards should be much stricter. Either you can demonstrate direct cause or you can't. Prior to that you just have correlations/anecdotes that can (if they happen with enough frequency) merit working to prove/disprove those causes.
The idea is that the doctor on the ground cannot demonstrate anything, they only know that the patient has a set of signs/symptoms and had received an intervention. All such occurrences must be reported, and any causation can be centrally determined.
 
The idea is that the doctor on the ground cannot demonstrate anything, they only know that the patient has a set of signs/symptoms and had received an intervention. All such occurrences must be reported, and any causation can be centrally determined.

You'd need to do research on how vaccine/disease interacts at the micro level to actually generalize causation with high certainty in either case. I'm not sure a centralized decision-maker on cause-of-death makes sense more broadly though, normally cause of death isn't centrally determined and ideally doctors/hospitals don't have financial incentive to pick some causes over others.
 
You'd need to do research on how vaccine/disease interacts at the micro level to actually generalize causation with high certainty in either case. I'm not sure a centralized decision-maker on cause-of-death makes sense more broadly though, normally cause of death isn't centrally determined and ideally doctors/hospitals don't have financial incentive to pick some causes over others.
If there is a causal link from an intervention to an adverse effect then the most sensitive way to detect that is for all adverse effects to be reported centrally.
 
If there is a causal link from an intervention to an adverse effect then the most sensitive way to detect that is for all adverse effects to be reported centrally.

Yes, but once causal link is known it would be the expert on-site that would recognize when it happens typically. You don't want to screw with their incentives to make that determination.
 
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