Revising the lore of each civic

KaTiON_PT · Aug 19, 2018

There are some civics that either have little or no strategy section and of what I read from the ones that do have one, it looks like it serves as a way to carry out the lore of each type of civic, like how Agricultural Guilds has the lore of "a nation that uses guilds for their agricultural system".

I suppose I could try coming up with some text in order to fill the missing lore. Feel free to comment on suggestions or remarks if there is something you don't agree on.

Changes to civic availability:

The welfare civic Eco-Friendly (was Paradise) is to be unlocked later with Environmental Economics (was Ecological Engineering).
The economy civic Subsistence is to be unlocked earlier with Hunting (was Pottery).
The education civic Propaganda is to be unlocked a bit earlier with Propaganda (was Fascism).
The rule civic Mind Control is to be unlocked later with Simulated Reality (was Cybernetics).
The workforce (was labor) civic Centralized (was Centralized Labor) is to be unlocked later with Management (was Marxism).
The education civic Instant (was Instant Education) is to be unlocked later with Knowledge Mercantilism (was Mind Uploading).
The agriculture civic Corporate Owned (was Corporate Agriculture) is to be unlocked later with Agricultural Engineering (was Corporation). The Megafarm building that this civic unlocks was also moved.
The military civic Starfaring (was Omni Imperialism) is to be unlocked much earlier with Astroimperialism (was Cosmic Warfare).
The immigration civic Secured Borders is to be unlocked earlier with Foreign Policy (was Applied Economics).
The immigration civic Skilled Workers is to be unlocked a bit later with Globalization (was Applied Economics).
The education civic Xenosemiotic (was Xenosemiotics) is to be unlocked later with Species Amalgamation (was Xeno Diplomacy)
The immigration civic Interstellar (was Interstellar Migration) is to be unlocked earllier with Xenodiplomacy (was Species Amalgamation)

Government

Spoiler :

Rule

Spoiler :

Power

Spoiler :

Military

Spoiler :

Religion

Spoiler :

Society

Spoiler :

Economy

Spoiler :

Welfare

Spoiler :

Currency

Spoiler :

Workforce (was Labor)

Spoiler :

Education

Spoiler :

Language

Spoiler :

Garbage

Spoiler :

Immigration

Spoiler :

Agriculture

Spoiler :

Dancing Hoskuld · Aug 20, 2018

KaTiON_PT said:
Tribal (was Chiefdom)

Old: Government Civic : Chiefdom
New: This civilization organized itself into small clans with varying degrees of kinship between each other. Every so often these come together to select a leader called a chief that acts as a representative towards other nations.

Monarchy

Old: Government Civic : Hereditary Rule (Monarchy)
New: This civilization is run by a hereditary dynasty where the ruling monarch acts as the guiding hand of its people.

The reason it was called Chiefdom was because that is the name of the tech that enables it. If you change it to Tribal people will wonder why it is not on the tech with all the other tribal civics, of which there are three.

Monarchy is not necessarily Heredity Rule though it can be. Sometimes it is a semi-elected position eg like the Pope. However I have no real problems with this change

One problem I have with the government set is that dozens of different types have been tried throughout history and they are not represented here. Where are the various triumvirates? And not just the Roman ones. The Spartans had one type and the Corinthians another. In all cases they were a type of elected Monarchy with three leaders who had to agree but had separate areas of responsibility eg Spartan had a high priestess, a king of local affairs and a king for foreign affairs - diplomacy, war and trade.

Praetyre · Aug 20, 2018

I think the current (?) model of seeing Chiefdom as a form of government and Tribal(ism) as a society civic which typically accompanies (both in C2C and real life) Chiefdom is the best way to go about it: it is quite easy to imagine tribal monarchies (Tonga) or even despotisms (many 20th century African nations).

KaTiON_PT · Aug 20, 2018

Good points, hadn't considered that. Reverted Tribal back to Chiefdom.

@Dancing Hoskuld When I play I tend to roleplay those types of governance by virtue of civics combinations. That's one way to get beyond those limitations.

What do you think of the revised lore for monarchy: "This civilization is run by a small group of privileged individuals that embody the state's national identity. Monarchies can exist in a variety of manners, from elective to hereditary, from a single monarch to a collection of different ones, from a symbolic role to a completely autocratic one."

tmv · Aug 20, 2018

KaTiON_PT said:
Anarchy (was Anarchism)

That's bad. The term "Anarchism" is a bit confusing, but we already have Anarchy in game (when you change your civics).

KaTiON_PT said:
This civilization is run by officials that act as representatives of the voting classes.

Too democratic for this government type. The Roman Senate was never formed by elections, while holding a lot of power in the Republic.

KaTiON_PT said:
This civilization is run by religious leaders that act on behalf of their deity.

It should be well understood that "deity" can also mean "deities" here.

KaTiON_PT said:
This civilization is run by a group of the most qualified and knowledgeable specialists inside of their specific fields of study.

Should this include Machine Rule?

KaTiON_PT said:
Galactic Federation

Old: A loose confederation of star systems.
New: This civilization is run by a decentralized federation of independent star systems.

Universal Empire (was Intergalactic Empire)

Old: An empire across galaxies.
New: This civilization is run by a central authority that manifests itself across the entire universe thanks to faster-than-light communications and travel.

If you put it that way, the main difference between these two civics seems to be centralization with little emphasis to freedom vs. opression. Is that intended?

KaTiON_PT · Aug 20, 2018

tmv said:
That's bad. The term "Anarchism" is a bit confusing, but we already have Anarchy in game (when you change your civics).

Reverted back to Anarchism.

tmv said:
Too democratic for this government type. The Roman Senate was never formed by elections, while holding a lot of power in the Republic.

The republic and democratic were always difficult terms to differentiate in respect to their description, even in civilization games. In my case I tried to make it so that republics are ancient things where only a relatively small portion of society (citizens) could vote whereas democratic are more modern and include universal suffrage where everyone has a say.

How would you revise the lore for it?

tmv said:
It should be well understood that "deity" can also mean "deities" here.

What do you think of: "This civilization is run by religious leaders that act on behalf of their deity or dieties."

tmv said:
Should this include Machine Rule?

Yes, gestalt consciousnesses can be biological or mechanical. As a case example for each, think of the first as a hivemind and the second as a ultra-intelligent AI that carries out governance as a kind of great mediator.

tmv said:
If you put it that way, the main difference between these two civics seems to be centralization with little emphasis to freedom vs. opression. Is that intended?

I was going for the existence of FTL travel, in the case of Galactic Federation FTL travel is still something novel and highly experimental so solar systems are isolated across light years so by virtue of this they were almost completely independent from any central authority. In the case of Universal Empire, as this is now a more matured spacefaring civilization with transwarp and space folding capabilities (as in, it can cross mega parsecs in an instant) so it is able to maintain a coherent system of governance over all places at once.

Praetyre · Aug 20, 2018

Speaking of which, I think it's valuable to have an idea of what kind of government is being modeled with these options (as this thread is going towards), and part of this, I think, involves thinking of both real and fictional examples and identifiying core and common charactersitics. The way I see it:

Anarchy: In the beginning, represents the fact that a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer society numbering between 30-50 people isn't really going to have a government in the sense most would recognise it: there would certainly be power and influence, but of an almost purely informal kind and almost always tied in with blood relations. In subsequent eras, this would also represent various "stateless societies" both historical and hypothetical, whose further development would be modeled by other civics and game factors. The Australian Aborigines would be one likely candidate for real life societies that have used this civic sometime in recorded history.

Chiefdom: A fairly broad category of governments of chiefly (pun intended) Neolithic vintage, ranging from tribal chieftains to mayors of Neolithic townships to warband leaders with relatively modest holdings whose people are tied chiefly by blood relations. Most indigenous peoples seem to have had this form of government, famous examples including many Native American tribes and much of pre-colonial Sub-Saharan Africa.

Despotism: Something like absolute monarchy, but less formalized and generally less hereditary in nature. This would have its first appearance in the form of Neolithic warlords (think Memnon from the underrated The Scorpion King), and occur semi-sporadically afterwards (Roman dictators and -umvirates, Third World dictatorships).

Monarchy: A typically hereditary dynastic rulership system not based purely on brute force or blood ties. Historical examples abound, ranging from the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt to the European monarchies of the ancien regime.

Republic: A non-monarchical, typically non-hereditary elitist-oligarchical government, often with aristocratic elements. Classic (pun intended) examples would include Athens (which was not a democracy in the modern or, in my opinion, C2C sense of the term) and Rome; Venice would also match many of these characteristics. You could also argue that the United States was this from the Articles of Confederation until the Andrew Jackson era, and certainly many of the Founding Fathers showed strong tendencies in this direction. This seems to be a uniquely Western form of government, though due to the influence of the West many non-Western countries have adopted it: the closest things to it outside the West I can think of the Iroquois Confederacy and the Chinese/Korean de-facto bureaucratic governments.

Theocracy: Rule by priests in the name of religion; may vary wildly in terms of its internal composition, but historical examples tended to be monarchical in practice. Relatively rare historically: examples include the Papal States/Vatican City, Tibet, and the Islamic Republic of Iran (though the last has definite republican elements).

Democracy: Rule by a substantial plurality of commoners, generally along egalitarian or quasi-egalitarian lines. I have my own views as to which historical nations fit this description, but as I'd rather not drag this thread off topic I'll simply say that I think this form of government is inherently unstable and tends to ossify into one of the others (including some that are either covered by other civic categories, would amount to an unconventional take on Republic, or are within the Government category but not yet covered by existing civics within said category).

Totalitarianism: I'm not convinced placing this in the Government category isn't a category mistake. You can argue that the ideological character of (say) the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany seperates them from Despotism, but you can also argue that said character falls within the scope of other civic categories. I think totalitarianism should be understood as an approach to the scope of state power, not as who is holding that power or how they came to hold that power, and that approach is to some extent outside the capacity of civics to model (being more in the realm of political philosophy), and to some extent modeled by other civic categories. I can understand that from a gameplay point of view having the same penalties for modern incarnations of such might be problematic, though.

Technocracy: I actually think there are very strong parallels between this form of government and theocracy: just replace "priests" with bureaucrats and experts, "religion" with "ideology" (even if that ideology is pure pragmatism) and "religious laws" with "bureaucratic regulations". Historical examples would likely include the more Mandarinic periods in Chinese history and its parallels in Korea, and I would argue the West since at least the end of WWII (if not sometime from the 1880s onward) and other social democracies would count as this too de facto if not de jure.

Gestalt: This seems to have one foot in Government, another in Society. Certainly such a thing would qualify as a form of government in its own right, along the lines of the Geth Consensus in Mass Effect (though other possible fictional examples are blurrier, like the Borg Collective from Star Trek, who have at least one Queen)

Gerontocracy: This doesn't really seem like a form of government to me, more an application of life-extension technologies on a technocratic model. Why couldn't the rulers of, say, a despotism, monarchy, corpor-nation or the like use life extension and accumulate superhuman knowledge?

Galactic Federation: I don't really see much lore point in "X form of government but IN SPACE!", although I can see why gameplay considerations would call for it (such as those I mentioned under Totalitarianism), and I'm not big on political convergence (the idea every interstellar/other futuristic civilization would have X type of government; not only is such an idea patently unrealistic and often modeled on quasi-religious narratives of social evolution, but its far less interesting from a story and gameplay perspective).

Universal Empire: Same as before: it's "Galactic Federation, but IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE AND MORE IMPERIAL!". My other comments still apply.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 20, 2018

Very interesting food for though @Praetyre, enjoyed reading it all. :thumbsup:

raxo2222 · Aug 20, 2018

I made table of all civics some time ago.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 20, 2018

Time for the Rule ones:

Rule

Obedience

Old: Most primitive way to rule the population.
New: Order is maintained by being obedient to the highest ranking individuals, the alphas.

City States

Old: Cities have their own governments.
New: People consolidate into cities where each have their own laws, customs and traditions.

Magistrates

Old: Power!
New: An appointed governmental officer dictates what is and isn't lawful.

Meritocracy

Old: Meritocracy is when members of the government are chosen based solely on their abilities to exercise civil responsibilities
New: Picking of leaders based on demonstrated performance and achievements, rather than on ancestry or wealth.

Bureaucracy

Old: Power Civic : Bureaucracy
New: A small group versed in administrative matters write the laws and procedures that are followed by the populace.

Vassalage

Old: Power Civic : Vassalage
New: A mutual relationship exists between overlords and vassals, where the former assures safety and lands and the latter promises support and tribute.

Confederacy

Old: The government is a loose collection of cities and states.
New: Self-governing states that, at times, work together towards a common military, economical or social goal.

Federal

Old: .
New: States that are united under a central government, following the laws and guidelines put forth by it.

Martial Law

Old: Martial Law is when, due to extreme circumstances, the government runs society to keep it "orderly".
New: The government exerts direct military control on normal civilian functions in order to assure stability.

Grid

Old: Big Brother is watching you.
New: The government indirectly control the nation through mass surveillance, which allows it to know everything about each individual.

Polystate

Old: Multiple virtual states
New: People join virtual states that are in accordance to their opinions and ideals.

Machine Rule

Old: Rule by artificial intelligence
New: A superintelligent AI replaces all governmental functions by having the people follow its directives.

Mind Control

Old: Your nation passes knowledge to the next generation through mind control.
New: A permanent state of subservience is instilled on the population thanks to mind control, and individuality might be non-existent.

Engineered Society

Old: Highly social engineered society
New: People are influenced through highly advanced social engineering to follow certain ideals and aspirations with an emphasis in societal cohesion.

Morality

Old: Morality is programmed into all aspects of society.
New: The single goal of maximizing the happiness of all sentient organisms in the universe is what drives this nation.

tmv · Aug 21, 2018

KaTiON_PT said:
How would you revise the lore for it?

It's a bit of a problem. Strictly speaking, a republic is any form of government where leadership is not hereditary. Both the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were Republics, but the UK isn't. The one time Great Britain was a Republic (although that was arguable in itself, seeing as the leadership was still hereditary) was one of its darkest times (Cromwell), so you cannot just consider republics to be proto-democracies. You get a leader who isn't trained for that position but who has emerged in some way against competition, so it's a bit hard to say which structure produces the better leader. Meritocratic elements are certainly more natural for republics, whereas guilds are more natural for monarchies (if every profession is hereditary it makes sense to have political leadership included as well).

Sorry for not giving a more definitive answer.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 21, 2018

@tmv what do you think of:

This civilization is run by a body of officials where leadership is not an hereditary position. How they get into power varies widely, seizure of power by coup d'etat, direct appointment by the head of state, general elections from the voting public, etc.

tmv · Aug 21, 2018

KaTiON_PT said:
@tmv what do you think of:

This civilization is run by a body of officials where leadership is not an hereditary position. How they get into power varies widely, seizure of power by coup d'etat, direct appointment by the head of state, general elections from the voting public, etc.

For the most part, it's good. Only it is the head of state more than any other position that I was talking about (it's certainly the hereditary position in a monarchy). Perhaps "head of state" could be replaced by "ruling council" in your text, that would probably fit nicely and represent the oligarchic rule where coup corresponds to a dictatorship and elections or sortitions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition) to ancient forms of democracy. Of course, there are examples in history where these terms were used in a very confusing manner (France still called itself a republic for a few years after Napoleon I became emperor), but I think we better leave these out if these terms are to mean anything.

Montesquieu wrote: "The suffrage by lot is natural to democracy, as that by choice is to aristocracy." (The Spirit of the Laws) - and while this thinking was abandoned soon after, it was certainly prevalent in ancient times.

Regarding Monarchy, things can get even more confusing by the fact that there is an older type of monarchy - based more on the priests than on the military / administration - that is called Divine Cult in this game and is a Religion civic (probably because it establishes a state religion, but Divine Cult makes very little sense when combined with freedom-based civics, I think).

Joij21 · Aug 21, 2018

What about an Athenian style democracy? We currently only have a Republic civic for the classical era. And the Democracy civic comes way later and seems to describe more of a democratic republic than a direct democracy. Perhaps change Democracy to Democratic Republic and then create a Democracy civic for the classical era. Now while Athens was anything but a true direct democracy they could be simulated by using Democracy, Patriarchy, Bourgeoisie, and the Slavery world view. Also Switzerland actually more or less has a direct democracy and they've had it since the late middle ages, far before the current time that Democracy is available in the game as of now.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 21, 2018

Joij21 said:
Perhaps change Democracy to Democratic Republic and then create a Democracy civic for the classical era.

This threads' goal is to see the text every civic has and how it fits in the context of the game and its history so I'm not looking to add new ones. Do post this on ideas and discussions thread and see if others find it worthwhile.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 22, 2018

As for Power:

Power

Strongman

Old: Strong take from weak.
New: The strongest dictate the rules.

Matriarchy

Old: Honor thy mother.
New: Females dominate all positions of power.

Patriarchy

Old: Honor thy father.
New: Males dominate all positions of power.

Junta

Old: .
New: The highest ranking officers of a military are the ones who are calling the shots.

Sovereignty

Old: Power!
New: The ones in power are those who control or own the land.

Legislature

Old: Power!
New: A gathering of individuals have the authority to elaborate laws and carry out verdicts.

Divine Right

Old: Your power comes from heaven.
New: Power is recognized in whoever is favored by the god or gods, and how this favor is determined is something that is up for debate.

Separation of Powers

Old: Power!
New: The abuse and tyranny that come from having supreme authority is something that is unacceptable and so power is divided.

Single Party

Old: Power!
New: In order to ensure the carrying of long-term goals and to avoid any inefficiency caused by dissidence power is concentrated in the hands of a single political entity.

Plutocracy

Old: Rule by money.
New: Assets and economic capital are the hallmarks of power.

Protocol

Old: Decentralized protocols
New: Advancements in technology have made information and knowledge some of the greater sought out items, and whoever has the most is considered to be in power.

Computation

Old: Computation is power.
New: As this civilization reaches an almost incomprehensible level of development the difficulty of finding new discoveries increases exponentially, so power is recognized in whoever can calculate the most.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 22, 2018

Military

Militia

Civilians independently take up arms in the eventuality of conflict.

Banditry

Outlaws carry out military actions, usually as a sentence.

Tribal Warfare

War is a way to train the younger generation, and partaking is how they become adults.

Conscription

Compulsory enlistment of civilians in order to maintain a military force.

Mercenaries

Paying soldiers who may or may not have allegiance to the nation.

Pacifism

War is considered without merit so resources are redirected to improving culture and inspiring great people.

Vassalage

In recognition of their services, loyal servants are given a part of the country for them and their families to rule and, in return, they maintain a military force comprised of its inhabitants, which are then provided to the overlord in times of need.

Voluntary

Civilians volunteer into the armed forces and are given additional benefits for the time spent in service.

Robotic

Use of remote controlled and robotic equipment so as to diminish casualties.

Cloning

Genetically enhanced clone soldiers defend the nation.

Starfaring

Total mobilization of all forms of life across known space.

Time Drafting

Using time travel to staff the army with the fittest warriors and most skilled officers from throughout past and future.

Interdimensional

Powerful eldritch entities with unmeasurable power battle across infinite realities.

raxo2222 · Aug 22, 2018

Looks nice.

I wonder how @pepper2000 likes new lore of his civics.
These texts are displayed in Civics advisor too.

Time Drafting is weird.
By that time all previous soldiers and generals in your civilizations are bad in combat as Dalai Lama due to exponential improvements in material science and information technologies.
That is spearman VS tank

Unless after bringing them to present you are exponentially improving captured soldiers and generals.

Unless such warfare would be more like traveling in time to ruin enemy and its morale.

....
It appears that Time Drafting and Omni Imperialism are unlocked in same Xgrid right after Cosmic Lifestyle, that is when you are preparing to colonize your second galaxy (Milky Way was first

)

It seems like Time Drafting and Omni Imperialism are quality VS quantity when comparing by what they do.

That is with Time Drafting you redirect energy to improve stuff, that you loot from past, and Omni Imprialism you just produce units using current knowledge.

KaTiON_PT · Aug 22, 2018

I'm kind of curious of what he thinks of some of the name changes, really. If he dislikes them I can always revert them back.

If someone was changing the designations of things I gave a lot of though to come up with I'd be a bit annoyed, so I'm not sure how he feels.

EDIT: Saw your additions to the post above @raxo2222, so do you think the lore should follow the quality vs quantity idea then?

What do you think about time drafting being unlocked by the tech "Time Reversal" (transcendent)?

raxo2222 · Aug 22, 2018

KaTiON_PT said:
EDIT: Saw your additions to the post above @raxo2222, so do you think the lore should follow the quality vs quantity idea then?

What do you think about time drafting being unlocked by the tech "Time Reversal" (transcendent)?

Well Cosmic Warfare tech, that unlock civic of same name directly needs Time Reversal.

Time Travel tech was meant as foundation for time traveling - there are multiple techs related to time travel.

Stable Time Loops (tech at end of Cosmic era) sounds like good place for it.
It would be reasonably far from omni imperialism (beginning of Cosmic) and cosmic warfare (Middle of Transcendent) civics.

Revising the lore of each civic

Emperor

Deity

King

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

King

Emperor

Time Traveller

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

🔥Deny, Defend, Depose!🔥

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Time Traveller

Emperor

Time Traveller

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