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Revolution: what's your experience?

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by 45°38'N-13°47'E, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    You're right; I might remove city razing by barbarians after Renaissance, this might help. We could make it so that Barbarians captured cities become 1 or 2 population cities (or any low number anyway), from Industrial era onward.
     
  2. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    In my current game, I'm playing Continents x 2., Eternity speed.

    I OWN my original starting continent, and have taken over the largest Civ on the 2nd continent, along with a few other small civs, who were just asking for it. Or had been destroyed/vassaled by the largest civ there.

    I find I'm having revolutions on the 2nd continent, virtually every 5 turns, with 4 Rebel civs popping up. They seem to stay around certain cities, and Geographical area's.

    What annoys me the most, is I have the Versailles palace on this continent, built by another Civ Arrrgghhh!!!!, its fairly central to my colony empire, I have garrisoned 10 Troops per city, and CRUSH the rebellion on the 1st turn, completely.

    Yet they continually rebel. And rebels, get sufficient troops, latest technology from me, but don't fully use troops, spread over rebellion area, and don't use siege 1st, or use SAM's as siege, receive no SIEGE line of troops. Only receive troops I actually have built, not those I have available. I.E. No Anti tanks, as I haven't built any, no special infantry, I have 3 stationed, no Siege, I have CAPTURED lots of siege, built up to 5 very early, none since.

    I've also had rebellion on the Home continent, only in 2/3 cities out of 149. But these cities HAVE a metropolitan Administration building, Communication towers, 60% culture, fully built out. It may have been a bad civics combination I did adopt, as the whole continent was rising up in revolution. But I took out the 2nd area of a 2 area Civ, 4 cities,small war, as well as 2 cities of another disjointed AI empire, and that set them all back to zero.

    2nd continent, even with Versailles palace, garrison, and crushing rebellions, is still revolting on a 5-10 cycle.

    I can't spin off a vassal, as it seems I'm "too powerful", at 5x opponents added together.

    If I gift a city to an AI, revolution IMMEDIATELY rises in all cities, Hmm ok,shouldn't give away empire.

    Revolution index is set at 2.5, lowest setting.

    Culture is 100% Ottoman (I'm Ottomans). I've had 2 cities flip to the AI's at culture less then 25%, I now have an AI city rebelling/agitating at less them 30% Ottoman, I assume to me as an AI did offer it as peace settlement for war.

    Conclusions :
    1) Cities seem to rebel at too low a culture rating.
    2) Rebellions happen too frequently, especially when game speed is taken into consideration.
    3) No credit given for speed of crushing of rebellion.
    4) Rebels receive NO siege, even though I have plenty garrisoned, stationed on continent.
    5) They do receive MODERN MARINES, which are surprising good at attacking rebellious cities.
    6) AI pathing WON'T take into account, the attacking over rivers penalty, and will continually assault across a river.
    7) Barbarians only appear on home continent, even thought civ spots are available for ones I eliminated. Maybe too long ago, over 1,000 years in post AD.
     
  3. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    I haven't played a long game in a while. My most recent experiences with Revolution were not good ones. Too many constant revolutions. I was playing on Noble with the handicap at 0.0. There are a lot of things I want to play with and look into once I finish the list of ideas I'm working on.
     
  4. AndarielHalo

    AndarielHalo Prince

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    not sure if this constitutes necro posting at less than a month, but my experience has made my current playthrough unplayable.

    played this at 1.73 six years ago and recently returned. I dont' remember revolutions being this incredibly frequent back then thought I might be mistaken.

    basically I have about 30 cities set up, almost all of them settled by me. For the longest time, several of them have been constantly revolting in order to join the Mongols, who are my vassals and have only one city. They continued doing this even though the Mongols have between 0-20% influence in these lands.

    The latest batch of nonstop revolutions has been over trying to convert my entire nation to Naghualism, despite the fact that more people are Asatru, more cities have Asatru, and the cities with Naghualism also have Asatru.

    My civics setup is: Republic, Senate, Proletariat, Coinage, Volunteer Army, Public Works, Imperium


    I also conquered some cities and set up colonies on a continent just 4 ocean tiles away, and these are constantly revolting as well. At one point I accepted their terms of independence, and only one city actually went independent (barbarian) while the others remained part of my nation and continued whining and revolting.


    I've got half my cities garrisoned with 5 or more units (renaissance era) and I've still lost two cities over the course of 200 or so years of nonstop revolutions which were just completely razed by the people who revolted. Apparently the game has run out of new civs to create via revolutions so every single revolt I and the other AI are experiencing are Barbarian.
     
  5. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    30 cities on which mapsize? That's definitely a lot on any map smaller than giant. And if you're in Renaissance, that's a lot even on gigantic. Also, 5 units per city if playing on gigantic is laughable. There are factors like empire size which change over time. Even on a gigantic map, 30 cities before Medieval is crazy; on Industrial/Modern it might be ok, although it still sounds a big empire to me. Same for distance: 10 tiles away is a lot on Standard maps, it's acceptable on Huge and larger maps; but it also depends on era: what is very far on a Standard map in Ancient era, it's definitely not that far on the same map in Modern era. Looks to me you simply need to adapt your strategy to the changes. It's been 6 years and lots of things have changed since 1.73. Mostly, you can't expect to conquer the world, at least not easily: the mod has been trimmed to make it very hard for huge empires to survive. In a recent game I've played on a Large map, I had 13 cities and 3 of them on the borders where often rebelling. I've been able to keep them but I had roughly 15 units per city or more (all cities, not just the rebellious ones).
    Also, if there are more than 25 civs in game, there's a higher chance that barbarians are spawned as rebels (this is afforess' idea); if you're not doing it yet, I suggest anyway that you play with the MegaCivPack, you won't run out of civs.
    On this last subject, to tell the truth I don't think I've ever seen more than 32-33 civs at the same time in ANY game I've played, although technically the dll supports up to 50 civs. Does anybody have a difference experience regarding the max number of civs? Or any hint why we never can't go past 32-33?

    Edit: also, which rev factor (difficulty) are you using under BUG options? Default is 2.5 but pushing it higher might really cause violent revolutions. If you play with a higher level, you're not supposed to be able to keep your cities: you WILL lose some of them, no matter what you do. That's history.
     
  6. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    Also, civics can have a lot to do with it, I've only just realized. If you run State religion or Free church, any non state religion, will increase, discontent and cause people to want to worship their MINORITY religion. Even though you OWN/WON the holy city, and control the holy city of the minor religion, or maybe its owned by another civ. This will INCREASE the discontent, and spark revolutions.

    I've only just changed to a religious civic that has no religion component to revolutions, and I'll play on and see how it affects the game.

    Previously, I had cities on my 2nd continent empire, constantly rebelling, wanting to worship this and that minor religion, even thought I had 100% state religion spread through my empire. Some I controlled the 2nd holy city, some the AI did or others, that holy city had been removed from the game (Another gripe). No rhythm or order to how or what they wanted, each city would have something like 5+ religions, yet they'd chose religion X, 3-6 cities would demand to change state religion to this 30% coverage religion, or want independence to worship it, or want to join a majority culture (Fair enough).

    It just demands a change of game play, you can't hold a 2 continent spanning empire, without discontent on the 2nd most recent conquest. They want to join old empires, resurrect the old leaders, or worship the gods of old.

    Strange thing is, I have 1 city on my 'HOME' continent, that is constantly threating to rebel, but they only spawn as Barbarians, when I have plenty of leader slots to be occupied. Maybe I eliminated the leaders BEFORE the revolution changes. But they have NEVER came back to threaten me.

    On the 2nd Continent, they old leaders, each take turns to lead a rebellion, French leading cities that are majority American, Dutch, Spanish, Iroquois, Indian each having a regular turn to lead rebellions. No consistency to location or cities, or relation to old EMPIRE status.

    Its a game, the modders have done a GREAT JOB :thanx: in making it challenging, and it keeps me here after 5 or more years still on this one mod.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  7. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Getting a little tired of the "X city / cities are declaring their independence!" and then the spawned rebels immediately razing the cities they live in.

    So far the rebellions that I've gotten involving barbarians ("...Even though they have no flag to rally around") ALWAYS raze the cities they manage to take. No, they weren't freshly founded cities that never gained any culture/population, but well established ones that have been around for a while. I can't help but imagine this scene in my mind where the rebels proudly state they secured their freedom or some nonsense, while completely missing the fact they just razed their own homes instead.

    Size 7 city. Rebels demand I let them have their freedom. I say no, some turns later they cap it and then they raze it.



    When an AI nation rebels and takes a city, they generally keep it - if it was one of the cities that was rebelling that is.
    When disorganized barbarian rebels spawn from those same cities, it's like the Barbarians Always Raze option is switched on somewhere in their logic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
  8. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Just wonder...
    It might have to do with new razing system, I'll check the code, thanks
     
  9. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    I can confirm that Barbarians spawned as rebels will raise a city. The AI of Alfonso of Portugal, spawned a Siamese rebel, who took and kept 3 cities, one of which was lost to the master of Alfonso and raised. Later Barbarians were spawned as rebels, and they raised any city they took, leaving behind a FORT. When Bunkers are available for Alfonso.

    On my own experience, on same said continent. Setting for me is Continents map, this is the 2nd continent as I own the 1st. I was experiencing rebellions every 5 turns virtually, swapping between a rosta of 5 leaders in alternating area's of influence. The only consistency, was in the off shore islands, where the previous owner would hold sway.

    Any way, I decided to move my Capital to the 2nd Continent, with the intention of spinning of the 1st Continent as a Vassal or 2 who would be strong enough to accept vassalage, and maybe break free. But No, it only removed the gifting of Multiple cities on the 2nd continent, no vassals.

    But its had the effect of Calming down the revolutionary sentiment of the 2nd continent, dropping the revolution index by up to 50 pts a turn. My 1st continent, had a massive upswing in maintenance, to be expected, a small upswing in revolution, but building a wonder calmed them down to 0 Revolution index. On this continent I now only have the Forbidden palace, a couple of maintenance reducing wonders, a few holy cities and ALL have Metropolitan Administrations and fully built out. 3 Garrison troops per city, no problems with Revolution. I've kept it below growing into unhappiness, and where its exceeded the limit, and continues to grow, even with the cap checked, top right of city screen, don't grow when exceeding unhappiness limit, (Another bug fix required), I build the remaining happy buildings to get it below.

    Overall, the Capital seems to have the BIGGEST effect on revolutionary sentiment. By just moving my capital to the 2nd continent, which already had Versailles palace built by an AI, its calmed them down from 1500+ revolutionary sentiment to below 500 and rapidly dropping to Zero.

    Previously, I had max troop garrisons, of 25 troops, as I have a tile limit of 25, I had flying squads of 25 troops, to quell local rebellions in 1 turn, Automated Air fleets of bombers and fighters, Naval fleets full of marines to assault via sea, for the Islands. The only cities I lost, where ones where the rebel AI's would get a super secret agent, the 007 special unit, even though I HAVEN'T build Scotland yard, and would bribe the loyalty of same said city. One they did take via force of Arms, I must admit, but I've strengthened the garrisons since then.

    Overall, its a greater challenge, the remaining AI's are having revolution problems, probably due to my culture, but Alfonso, has done the "Sell off all but one military" Strategy, hence the losing of the cities. Roosevelt, the American whom I was at war with, as I took half of his disjointed empire, 2 separate areas, doing him a favour really, and used the UN to get back a city he flipped/stole from me at 30% culture.

    Overall, I like the changes, I'd like it if distance from palace, had more to do with spinning off vassals, and allow spinning off vassals from own empire, at say culture > 90%. As they are Friendly from start and not looking to break free.
     
  10. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    One other thing is that the barbarians (And sometimes, the AI in general) seem to skip by the pillaging the city's population requirement... Razing it (And almost always, fortifying the ruins) with just one unit regardless of the population.

    I tested this in the World Builder a bit too, spawning units into occupied cities... The player had to pillage to raze, the AI would just up and do it regardless of population.
     
  11. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Deity

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    More on my revolution experience. I've just recognized the independence of 2 Islands, I'd abandoned.

    Well, was that a mistake, and I go and compound it by recognizing the independence of a 2nd 2 x Island group.

    Spoiler :


    Oh well, I wanted to spin off the original continent as a Vassal, looks like I may get my wish after all. Trouble is, I've mass built it fully out, will see how it all pans out.

    Say "WHAT!!!!" OH Dear me, Oh dear my,
    Spoiler :




    Could be better set out in showing what they want.

    and the demand is what???
    Spoiler :


    and it does???? , Oh I adopt President, and have 2 turns of Anarchy for the Privilege of doing so. Even though I have Christo Redentor, I have 2 turns of Anarchy.

    Please some to the people all the time,
    Spoiler :


    and piss off the rest
    Spoiler :
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  12. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    My revolutions experience has been terrible. I have four cities, the furthest one is around ten tiles away from my capital and it's rebelliousness is increasing due to a distance penalty. Also in the classical era four cities is considered a huge empire worthy of massive penalties. Especially on a huge map. I have a bunch of local stability giving civics and the town hall building and its still inevitably marching towards a show of military might. With an experience like this, I might just turn off revolutions next game and let loose on expansion.
     
  13. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Meanwhile the AI continue to send settlers to plant on your borders with no sign of instability anywhere. Not until they've reached their ninth city while you lose two of your own to rebellions and have your difficulty increased on top of all that :rolleyes:


    Almost every Rev experience of mine has gone exactly like that. The early days are way too brutal on the player when they have little to no real answer to them, between production being too low and tech being insufficient, but the AI largely ignores these penalties and goes wild with expansion. Sometimes I see them implode during these days, but more often than not I see them shoot to 6 ~ 9 cities and push half an era ahead of me while three out of four of my own cities are near-perpetually locked in a rebellious state. This of course being on the "fair and not too hard" Noble difficulty.

    For good measure, my difficulty usually gets pushed up a level or two while all this is happening.


    I might look at the Rev difficulty for my next game though (Right now I've put AND aside until the AI razing-and-fortifying cities is addressed) but I remembered it not having much effect... I guess it's more noticeable on starting a new game than during the middle of one. It's in the "middle" currently - sitting at 5.0 I think?
     
  14. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    I would not play with the revolution slider set to anything other than 0. Between the AI early bonuses and the increase in revolutions, I would consider that unplayable.
     
  15. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    I wish I had known that earlier. The only way I kept with the AI on that game in Noble mind you, was by simply burning their cities to the ground since we were both minor civs.
     
  16. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    I haven't touched it since installing the mod, so I guess the overly brutal settings it's currently using is the default :sad:
     
  17. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    It's on the RevDCM tab of the BUG options menu. Turn that down to 0 and see what it gets you. You'll have to reload after saving.

    If we're still having problems, I think the next thing is to try reducing HumanIndexModifier in Revolution.ini (UserSettings Folder). It's currently set to 1.2.
     
  18. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Guys I really don't understand you. I'm an average player and I never ever lose any city to rebels. Not a single time, for the entire game. Next game I want to try the hardest level (10) of Revolution. I've always played with the default one or the next higher. So it can't be a problem with revolution, maybe it's some other setting that you're using and I'm not. Possibly gamespeed? I never play slower than epic and mostly between blitz and normal.
     
  19. jackelgull

    jackelgull An aberration of nature

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    It's not the rebels that are the problem. They just suicide against my hill city archers. No it's the loss in productivity in those cities, and the brake on expansion this puts, while your rivals outpace you that are the problem. A four city empire will be hard pressed to fend off a rival with a dozen cities unless that empire has been taking proactive steps to destroy any and all competition.
     
  20. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    I haven't lost cities to revolutions, but that's only because I generally stack 4-6 defensive units per city, which is enough to keep the rebels from attacking immediately, plus in-the-field armies of 20+ units that can stay outside the cities to avoid damage from revolutions, then move in and take out the rebels. For me, it's not just about losing cities. It gets extremely frustrating to have cities tied up in revolt after revolt, and that's at least where my issues come in; I would like a few more ways to lower the revolution counter so that it isn't a near-constant thorn.

    My suspicion here, and it's almost certainly unfounded but I just can't shake it off, which is probably saying more about me than anything else, is that Revolutions is being tailored too much to a particular playing style. This can be okay but I can see it going wrong in a lot of ways, so let's dial it back just a touch so it doesn't threaten to crush you if you step wrong. I haven't played full games lately, and I do want to provide some of my own experiences once I have everything else I want fixed. I'm usually looking ahead to the next version so I don't want to play the current one.

    I will say one thing that is missing very, very badly is a better in-game explanation of what bribing one city will do both to the city being bribed and to future attempts to bribe other cities. I almost never use this mechanic because I don't know what the consequences are. Vague explanations are not a player's friend, and the bribing explanations are certainly that.
     

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