RevolutionDCM for BTS

[keldath]

glifder...

well..modding is addicting, and time consuming..once your in it, theres no way out...

the inquistion code by woc, is based only on sdk code, so it shouldnt affect rev,
acctually - civfussion, by ripple, is using this one with rev - so perhaps you can take the code from there - its easly marked.

well - jdog only merged the raw commerence part of bug, i acctually merged bug with rev+dale, so i already done that - merging revdcm with bug - should be rather easy for you, and worth the time.

so, if you need any help with that, pm me.

kel.

 

[Shadowhal]

say, after I figured out a couple of those factors driving revolutionary spirit, would you mind if I wrote a few lines on it, sort of like making a prelimiary list of what is good and bad about it? maybe you prefer for people to figure it out themselves, I just thought that in a game its usually nice to know the rules before it starts.

 

[Kalimakhus]

I for one will be so grateful if you shared your findings. This Revolutionary Spirit thing has always bugged me as I can't figure out where it comes from. I am sure Glider wouldn't mind it. He actually likes discussing the mechanics of Revolution and has always shared his findings and thoughts about them.

 

[glider1]

@Shadowhal
Go for it. We're all working in the dark so any light would be good. I think the whole Revolutions mod actually needs a "strategy guide" however that's a fairly major project. Yes agree, "rebellious spirit" has always been a bit of an enigma.
Cheers.

 

[Shadowhal]

then here is what I have figured out so far, hope to improve it as I gather more experience and information.

positive factors
* happiness (needs to be a least 3 or so happy smiles more than unhappy ones to show up
* culture rate: not sure when it starts, but + 2 from libraries doesnt do it. I think it starts at about + 5
* religion: need to check whether mere presence is enough or if it has to be a state religion
* garrison: only starts at about 4+ units, so 2 archers wont do you any good in that respect
* small city: only for size 1 (and I believe size 2 also)
* nationality: affects if the % cultur ownage of the city tile is high
* representation civic

negative factors
* distance: is present no matter what you do and how far away it is
* not connected to capital: obviously I'd say
* serfdom
* hereditary rule
* huge empire: starts at 2 - 3 cities aready. so far no way to up the limit
* (serious) financial trouble: normal financial trouble starts you make negative bottom line at about 30% research, serious kicks in at about 20%.
* some other effect in this respect that I cannot quite remember. it has to do with trying to cope with financial trouble by overly strongly lowering research %. in other words when you are near the 0 - 10% mark.
* you ignored our demands: fairly obvious too
* feeling rebellious: not sure, potentially related to the presence of nearby rebel troops
* nationality: takes effect if the city tile % is. affects primarily conquered cities, where you need to build up culture first
* religion: if you have adopted a state religion and a city does not have it, but another religion present, it showes up as a negative. if two are present, it does not rate as negative, it may become with a certain number of religions

neutrals
* theocracy
* caste system
* mercantilism

I would also like to make some comments. there are varying gray shades which seem to indicate the intensity of the effect on city "patriotism", where the brighter colours seem to indicate more intense effects. it did take me a bit to figure it out and it which direction it goes. I suggest using a point based system which makes decisions and their consequences more transparent. think of the diplomatic modifiers as an example.

further, its is somewhat strange to have distance such a large factors for a city only 4 tiles away. in my first few games I had my first cities wanting to break away only because of the distance factors and they are naturally fairly close in the beginning. additionally, your options of containing seperatism at the beginning at very narrow, which basically limits me to fairly massive garrisons until factors like religion and culture can be researched and employed to a more permament solution. as such, it might be good if the system doesnt put you under such a pressure from the very start, because in fact that limits your long term options if early on you are cornered by problems that only few courses of actions do not result in an impending revolution.

in the same way, the modifier huge empire might better take effect a bit later, as 2 - 3 cities hardly counts as huge empire. the gray shades are a bit too imprecise, so I am not sure whether this factors influence does in fact rise with the number of cities or whether its more of a stochastic value. if you can do it, an increasing effect starting at about 5 - 6 cities (normal speed) would really rock.

alright, thats mostly it. I think you will see as the constructive critique it was meant to be and rest assured, its lots of fun once you sort of mastered it a bit. and I'll see what I can do to improve on what I wrote.

Edit: in relation to what I discussed with glider in a later post: wars do seem to have an effect. I was in a slightly dangerous rebellion position and fought a war, where I had just taken a city and moved on to attack another. I got counter-attacked and lost that newly conquered city and bam! my cities declared independence.

that and: wow, this baby is really really tough. I just made it to top position and now with most of my army commited to that war and a full revolution brewing this is going to be a nasty period.

 

[glider1]

@Shadowhal
Excellent observations there. You have a very good skeleton guide to playing revolutions. We just need to fill in a bit more detail. You certainly seem to have the basics right

I don't really want to say it because it's a spoiler! but there is an empirical way for us to positively settle the uncertainties without a doubt. If you use cheat mode "chipotle" and hover over a city with the ctrl key, you get a full run down of the rev index.

We could use this just to fill in the areas of doubt and if all goes well, I could try and incorporate the guide into the civilopaedia. Perhaps Jdog might even want to make it a permanent addition to Revolutions.

Thanks,
Cheers.

 

[MrWhereItsAt]

@Shadowhal
Excellent observations there. You have a very good skeleton guide to playing revolutions. We just need to fill in a bit more detail. You certainly seem to have the basics right

I don't really want to say it because it's a spoiler! but there is an empirical way for us to positively settle the uncertainties without a doubt. If you use cheat mode "chipotle" and hover over a city with the ctrl key, you get a full run down of the rev index.

We could use this just to fill in the areas of doubt and if all goes well, I could try and incorporate the guide into the civilopaedia. Perhaps Jdog might even want to make it a permanent addition to Revolutions.

Thanks,
Cheers.

AHHH! Great, thanks for this glider. I think I'll re-enable it next game then, and try to work out how to deal with the problems I've had with unrest. It was so frustrating having great culture and happiness and being #1 in power yet having cities under constant threat of dissolving into chaos without a clue how to resolve it.

 

[glider1]

@MrWhereItsat
Frustration is a very hated thing when you are trying to enjoy a game. In theory Revolutions does need a "guide" and Shadowhal has got some good stuff going on that. Without a guide and without spoilerising, you have to experiment with retracing your decisions. However agree that at times even this is perplexing.

 

[glider1]

alright, thats mostly it. I think you will see as the constructive critique it was meant to be and rest assured, its lots of fun once you sort of mastered it a bit. and I'll see what I can do to improve on what I wrote.

Yes even if you fully understand how Revolutions worked hypothetically, that does not destroy game play but I think would enhance it. This is because I think sometimes you have to be alittle too conservative regarding expansion because you are uncertain what the Revolution effects might be. However if we understood it better, we could do interesting things like predict that a specific city might rebel and simply allow it to do so or even allow a broader revolt under specific conditions. However this requires a lot of confidence in how Revolutions works....

Your guide is good because you concentrate on the specific direct effects on the revolution index. Are there indirect effects as well? Here are some other "unknowns" to me that are not simple to deduce without spoilerising:

1) Trade for techs and resources - how does that impact Revolution?
2) War successes, stagnation and failures
3) The other government civics (representation, police state)
4) Specific buildings (like wonders, national wonders)
5) Bribing
6) Cascading rebellion (one city rebels and the rest domino)
7) Diplomatic relations
8) Increasing and decreasing score
9) Your increases and decreases in territory
10) Does research choice effect Revolution?
11) Are there localised effects like a particular city loosing a bonus?

The investigation list is huge isn't it! Don't feel it necessary to answer all these right away. These are not simple and quite time consuming to work out what exactly is going on. Sometimes it is simpler just to look at the code....

Your initial guide is already a good "starter guide". With a bit of polishing what I could do is acknowledge your hard work and then incorporate it mechanically into the Civilopaedia. If that works, it could be presented to Jdog5000 for approval.

However there is one thing to keep in mind. Jdog is currently in the middle of completely overhauling the Revolution engine to introduce more localised and regional effects as well as national effects (this he is doing as well as being a major contributor on the Better BTS AI project!)

Cheers.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,

can have a it of assiatance?

// Dale - RtW: START
// void logMsg(char* format, ... ); ----- line 1
void setDisableHuman( bool newVal ); ----- line 2
bool getDisableHuman( ); ----- line 3
void setNukesOkay(bool bValue);
bool getNukesOkay() const;
protected:
// bool m_bDisableHuman; ---line 4 // Set to true to disable isHuman() check
bool m_bNukesOkay;
public:
// Dale - RtW: END



ive noticed that in revdcm, you dont have any of this part at all,
i decided to leave it though, but im not sure what it does,
in the lines tht i marked - line 1-4, i had to add // to make the sdk compilble,

so i ask, what does this part does? does it have somthing to do with the nuke thing? or just the dales auto ai?

thanks for any help

 

[Thomas SG]

Nothing to do with the MHP.

 

[Tboy]

2 questions:

1.Why are stack attack, air bombing, active defense and so on disabled by default?
2.How can I activate these?

Thanks in advance, and good work on the merging.

EDIT: Just discovered the answer in the readme, sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Kalimakhus]

hey guys,

can have a it of assiatance?

// Dale - RtW: START
// void logMsg(char* format, ... ); ----- line 1
void setDisableHuman( bool newVal ); ----- line 2
bool getDisableHuman( ); ----- line 3
void setNukesOkay(bool bValue);
bool getNukesOkay() const;
protected:
// bool m_bDisableHuman; ---line 4 // Set to true to disable isHuman() check
bool m_bNukesOkay;
public:
// Dale - RtW: END



ive noticed that in revdcm, you dont have any of this part at all,
i decided to leave it though, but im not sure what it does,
in the lines tht i marked - line 1-4, i had to add // to make the sdk compilble,

so i ask, what does this part does? does it have somthing to do with the nuke thing? or just the dales auto ai?

thanks for any help

Both DCM and Revolution include the Ai Autoplay component. They implement it a little differently. The DLL can't have the code for the same job from both mods. As the Revolution implementation seems better it is left while the code from DCM is disabled (commented out).

 

[Shadowhal]

Yes even if you fully understand how Revolutions worked hypothetically, that does not destroy game play but I think would enhance it. This is because I think sometimes you have to be alittle too conservative regarding expansion because you are uncertain what the Revolution effects might be. However if we understood it better, we could do interesting things like predict that a specific city might rebel and simply allow it to do so or even allow a broader revolt under specific conditions. However this requires a lot of confidence in how Revolutions works....

I see we are thinking along the same lines. yes, it was pretty much my intention to uncover the rules, so we know what we are doing and why certain things do or do not work out.

Your guide is good because you concentrate on the specific direct effects on the revolution index. Are there indirect effects as well? Here are some other "unknowns" to me that are not simple to deduce without spoilerising:

1) Trade for techs and resources - how does that impact Revolution?
2) War successes, stagnation and failures
3) The other government civics (representation, police state)
4) Specific buildings (like wonders, national wonders)
5) Bribing
6) Cascading rebellion (one city rebels and the rest domino)
7) Diplomatic relations
8) Increasing and decreasing score
9) Your increases and decreases in territory
10) Does research choice effect Revolution?
11) Are there localised effects like a particular city loosing a bonus?

The investigation list is huge isn't it! Don't feel it necessary to answer all these right away. These are not simple and quite time consuming to work out what exactly is going on. Sometimes it is simpler just to look at the code....

well, I couldnt include some other civics, because I only made it too medieval ages. in spite of massive military efforts and others I still had a revolution going on, but I have it under control.

besides that I cant say of myself to have any modding experience, so whatever guide I can put together will be from information in the game itself. so if its affecting, but not listed, there is little one can do.

that said, a few more specific remarks:
* some game menus indicate that war success or failure influence the rating, another window implied that it depends on whether you conquer or lose cities, so it may not have to do so much with individual units.
* while its not listed, revolutions de facto have a cascading effect, because usually you will get another modifier such as "you ignored out demands" which in turn either kills your happiness bonus or translates into unhappiness. and it seem to be dragging other cities with it that were in fact improving. but thats more of an empirical observation on my part, it may be more corellation than causality.

Your initial guide is already a good "starter guide". With a bit of polishing what I could do is acknowledge your hard work and then incorporate it mechanically into the Civilopaedia. If that works, it could be presented to Jdog5000 for approval.

However there is one thing to keep in mind. Jdog is currently in the middle of completely overhauling the Revolution engine to introduce more localised and regional effects as well as national effects (this he is doing as well as being a major contributor on the Better BTS AI project!)

Cheers.

happy you like it and even happier to see an overhaul is planned. while he is still at it, it might actually be a good idea to ask him whether he could somehow put the effects into numbers too, that would go a long way towards seeing how strong any factor affects the rating. other than that it would be an honour if some of my stuff goes into a civilopedia.

 

[glider1]

@Tboy
No problem. Love the saying "It is easy to be brave behind a castle wall"!

@Shadowhal
No problem. Love the saying "every development carries the seeds of its demise"!

Very cool. Both these thoughts I have come across while playing civ + revolutions or in real life (whatever that is).
Cheers.

 

[Kalimakhus]

Anyone here thinks that the A-Bomb is overpowered? I confess I never used nukes before in Civ4. In my last game I had the following situation:
I have crossed the domination victory land requirement after taking all of my continent except for a small portion left for a vassal of mine. On the other continent my strongest rival has vassalized all the other civs there except for one that had two cities. I moved in and took these two cities. Now the Domination pop requirement was 61% I had 52.4 %. It came to my head that I can get my victory easily by nuking the hell out of my rival's cities lowering their population drastically. While my rival did had A-Bombs himself but I was sure If I hit first I will get rid of most if not all of them. Also my cities were far away from his except for these two cities I have on his continent. I carried on this plan successfully and I got my Domination Victory even though this rival was able to nuke my two cities on the other continent with whatever A-Bombs were left. (I had enough sense to move most of my troops out of these two cities so I was even able to take two cities one from him and another from one of his vassals tilting the scale even more to my favor in pops percentage).

Now does this seems as an exploit? Is the A-Bomb too powerful (it has a very large range to say the least)? ICBMs can't be moved so in my case I had to build them in my two tiny cities on the other continent which would have taken a long time or lots of money to hurry them. On the other hand A-Bombs are planes they can be rebased to any city in one turn. Additionally (which seems like a bug to me) they don't add to air units capacity in the city so you can have any number of them in one city.

I know that this scenario of mine can't be used in every game still I think the unit needs to be toned down. First it must be accounted for in Air-Units capacity. Second they can be limited by some number (turn it into a national unit). Fighter should be able to intercept them.

 

[glider1]

@Kali
I was hoping for someone to be able to really try out the A-bomber. Icchh that sounds ugly if you can base indefinite numbers of them in a city that's gotta be wrong. All other aircraft are limited.....

Also that they cannot be intercepted by fighters. Icch. When you say intercept, is that "active city defense", "fighter engage" or what other mechanism controls that?

The other interesting aspect is that you used A-bombers to finish a game and settle it quickly. However what about if that were not the case? What would be the diplomatic penalty of using a massive air-force of A-Bombers?

It's got to be fixed if you can base as many as you like independent of airports even?
Cheers.

 

[Thomas SG]

@Kali
I was hoping for someone to be able to really try out the A-bomber. Icchh that sounds ugly if you can base indefinite numbers of them in a city that's gotta be wrong. All other aircraft are limited.....

All other units represent fleets of bombers, fighters,... and not only one plane. So there should be no limit for A-bombers. Makes no sense.

Also that they cannot be intercepted by fighters.

Why not? A-bombers can be intercepted by fighters - Dale fixed that.

What would be the diplomatic penalty of using a massive air-force of A-Bombers?

There should be no difference between A-bombers, tactical nukes and ICBMs.

 

[Kalimakhus]

@Glider

- About air units limit it is definitely not applied to A-Bombers. It has nothing to with whether you have an airport or not because they simply don't get counted. So if the limit is 8 air units, fighters and bombers are counted, missiles and A-Bombers are not. I made sure to verify this fact. The cause is that it has its <iAirUnitCap> tag set to 0 so it is not counted.

- I am playing with the default setting of RevolutionDCM out of the box i.e. active defense and fighter engage are turned off. The interception mechanic I meant is the normal simple chance of an attacking air unit getting intercepted by a fighter in the attacked city. The fact that an A-Bomb is considered an ICBM (it has <DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_ICBM</DefaultUnitAI> tag), means that it can't be intercepted this way.

- About diplomatic penalty. As I said my game didn't last long enough to see about this. Basically this was a WW. It was me and my vassal against the rest of the world. They already hated me. In this particular case the bombing itself ended the game directly in 2 turns. Provided that I didn't already have Land domination or were not that close to pop domination, I should still win the game say in another 10 turns max given the vastness of the land to conquer. After nuking the poor enemy back to ancient are there were no obstacle in the face of my troops to move in and take the undefended cities out there. IMHO the unit is quite overpowered. If you use it first you win that's it.

 

[glider1]

@Kali
Yeah that's quite a powerful little bludgeon there and finished the game quite pronto I would say!
Thanks for the XML info. Is this issue about limitless A-bombers changeable with a little tweak of the XML if you thought it was worth it?

@Thomas SG
Ok so fighters can intercept then? It is quite easy to test, I will just fire up worldbuilder.
I see your point about A-bombers being single units not "fleets". It's just a question of game balance. If fighters can intercept A-bombers then all is ok with limitless A-Bombers as far as I can see...

As you can tell, I don't often get into this situation so I'm a raw beginner at atomic warfare.

EDIT: A-bombers are reuseable yes? Like any plane? Missiles are once off yes? Is this the resolution to limitless or limited?

Cheers.