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Revolutions

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Modpacks' started by Gedemon, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    The Revolutions mod add a stability value to each city, based on global happiness and your relation with each culture groups in that city.

    The Cultural Diffusion mod is required to calculate stability, and the Custom Advanced Setup Screen is required to reserve CS for revolutions. All mods are also available in the Revolution Modpack collection on Steam workshop.

    "Culture" in this mod is not the same "Culture" that allows the player to unlock social policies. The "culture" from the mod is spreading from cities (based on the city output from buildings/wonders) and "mark" the surrounding land, raising in value each turn if close enough from the city or other plots with higher culture value.

    Neighbors civs have their culture mixed on some plots, and during wars the conquered land is still marked by the culture of the previous civ (even if values can be lowered/converted to new culture when a city is conquered)

    Cities that are away from the Capital will create separatists. The allowed distance from capital raise with each new era and when the city is connected to the capital by road or harbor (but roads are better). Separatists create unrest faster than normal citizen.

    Unrest raise faster in conquered cities until a Courthouse is build, and raise slower in puppet cities.

    Revolt (city enter resistance), Rebellion (rebels unit spawning nearby) and Revolution (city flipping to rebel faction) can occurs if a city unrest is too high.

    Cities in Revolution can decide to join another Civilization after a few turns, or create a new City State (check the option in the setup screen)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. KnelRivendare

    KnelRivendare Warlord

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    this would be a huge step into a better Civ5 especially the part:
    ("Mixed with a stability value, this allows to spawn partisan in a region, population asking for autonomy (puppet cities) or to join another civ, and may lead to revolt/civil wars.

    Cities founded far away from the capital produce "separatist" culture, and may also ask for semi-autonomy (colonies using puppet cities) or ask for independence.

    Technically, this will require only to reserve a few CS at game start (around 10, maybe a bit more) to play the role of colonies gaining independence or one side during a civil war/revolution.")

    -sounds really interesting.

    but with the CS method wouldnt those new Independant States always be named like the actual city-state? or can you also mod them so they get a special name dependand on how or where they got independant?

    all in all this is a great thing and i hope for good news about this soon, wished i could help but nah not with my modding skills :p

    sincerly yours.
     
  3. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    The thing I didn't like from your cultural diffusion mod was that tiles could change owner. It's cool in low diff.levels but in higher it's always frustrating to plant a city, buy tiles and see them roted by the enemy.
     
  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    The tile flipping feature can be turned off - see the culture diffusion thread - and it will be off here, same for the recently added tile military conquest feature.

    City state name can be changed during a game, even if a few UI files will have to be edited to correctly reflect the change.
     
  5. Moriboe

    Moriboe King

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    Sounds good; revolutions make the game world so much more vibrant! Used to play Civ4 with a revolutions mod all the time in the end.

    I'm not too keen though on tiles changing owner peacefully either. I like the culture system just the way it is (edit: just read above post, I'd like that option :)). Higher culture doesn't necessarily have to mean ownership, it could be a separate affair called "influence" or something, with culture just one of the factors in it. I would like to advocate the return of ethnicities as in Civ3, before Civ4 just merged it with culture (it worked for that game though). Distance and separation could make those branch off etc. But I'll stop pushing my own agenda :mischief:

    Good luck, I'll be following your efforts anyhow :goodjob:
     
  6. Nutty

    Nutty Deity

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    I think this would be very cool! (...but potentially frustrating; it's all about maintaining that balance.)

    Is there anything else besides buildings and policies that goes into determining stability? Will happiness play a role?

    Have you begun to think about how this might interact with the espionage features of G&K?
     
  7. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Yes, I must make clear that in the revolution version, tiles won't flip peacefully.

    Distance and the type of route (land, sea, road, rail) between the capital and a city will influence the stability and the rate of conversion from your culture to separatist culture.

    For each culture group in a civ territory I want keep a "relation" value, a bit like for CS, based in part on your diplo relation with the original civ of the culture group and your own actions (a culture group could ask for a building, peace, a policy, autonomy/independance, etc...)

    The player should have choices to make, I could just code a revolution based on simple calculation, but that won't be fun to play...

    Giving the player the possibility to answer demands (like giving autonomy to a specific city in exchange of a boost of relation with a culture group) or keeping a military presence in a region to counter any partisan unit spawning, or purchasing/producting specific buildings to keep everyone under control will be the key to prevent frustration... or so I hope :)

    Stability should be relative to other civs, happiness being a part of it, as other demographic values. I also want to include the emigration mod, in a version that would influence culture mixing.

    I'm waiting to see how the espionage system will be implemented and if it will be mod friendly (we can have spies in our own cities, right ?), but of course adding a few missions type is something that will fit perfectly this kind of mod...
     
  8. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Small teaser :D

    Spoiler :
     
  9. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

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    Fantastic work. :)
     
  10. Nutty

    Nutty Deity

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    Awesome! I'm excited to try this one out.

    Tiny quibble: enthusiast is a noun, whereas woeful and exasperated are adjectives. It would need to be "enthusiastic" to agree with the others.
     
  11. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thanks, I'll correct that :)

    Maybe a first alpha version tomorrow so I can get feedback on how values are raising during the game in different scenarios (going tall or wide)
     
  12. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    okay, here is the first alpha version.

    You'll need :

    - Civ5 updated to latest patch
    - Revolution v.1 (outdated link removed)
    - Cultural Diffusion v.9
    - Custom Advanced Setup Screen (any version)

    Dependencies are set in the Revolution modinfo file, you shouldn't be able to activate the Revolution mod if the 2 others are not activated.

    I've done my test with CiVUP (but VEM deactivated) at standard speed, to keep vanilla balance, but this should be compatible with any mod that do not remove the happiness mechanism. Should work with NIGHTS too, tell me if not ;)

    Note : Alpha means unfinished version, for test game only. This first release is to have a feedback on the number and global balance.


    Here's what's in :

    Cultural Diffusion

    See the thread for that component detailed mechanism, it allows multiple culture groups hosted on each tiles. A city will produce culture for all groups present on the city plot, with a bonus (based on the city cultural output from buildings) for the city owner's culture group. Culture values are diffused on all adjacent plots, faster on road or following rivers and slower on snow, desert, swamp, crossing river or mountains.

    Cities that are too far from the capital city will convert some of your culture group to "separatist" group. Distance is relative to era and the type of route between the city and the capital (land, sea, road, rails, ...) will increase/decrease the separatist rate of conversion. As an example, separatist start to spawn for a city at more that 4 land hex from the capital in the ancient era. Once there is a road linking the 2 cities, no more separatist will be added at that distance.

    Relations

    For each culture group present in your cities (including your's), a relation value is used. This value will change relatively to the happiness level of your empire. Here are the rate of change each turn for an empire with 0 happiness :
    Separatist culture group = -10
    Foreign culture group base = -3
    The difference between your happiness and the happiness of the mother civ of that CG is then added
    there's a malus when at war (-15) and a bonus when a DoF is set (+10)
    Your culture group = 0

    So you need at least 10 happiness to keep separatist content.

    Once the relation value is under -75 for a culture group, revolt (city resistance for a few turns) or rebellion (rebel units spawned in the area) can occurs in city where that group has more than 25% of representation.

    Lower relation and higher representation will raise the chance of a revolt/rebellion to occur.

    Puppet cities lower that chance, occupied cities raise it.

    There is a maximum and minimum value for relation (200 / -500)


    Counter mechanisms

    There is only one mechanism added to counter revolt/rebellion in this alpha (excepting vanilla happiness building/policies of course) : military presence.

    Each military unit near (3 tiles max) a city will lower the chance of revolt/rebellion in that city, the closer from the city, the more influence the unit will have.

    All the values described above are set in the RevolutionDefines.lua, you can tweak them, and don't hesitate to ask for their usage.



    Also, for discussion, here is a list of effect that could be added to policies in future versions :

    Liberty
    - opener : other culture groups (CG) growth at same rate as yours
    - citizenship : +2 relation points (RP) / turn for foreign culture groups
    - meritocracy : +200 points to maximum relation value
    - representation : +3 RP/turn for all CG

    Tradition
    - opener : convert 2% of foreign CG to yours each turn, +100% rate of RP loss for all CG when the empire is unhappy
    - aristocracy: +2 RP/ turn for your CG and -1 RP/turn for foreign CG
    - legalism : +25 rate of RP gain for your CG when the empire is happy
    - oligarchy: +25% points needed to trigger revolt/rebellion in a city with garrison
    - monarchy : -10% separatist CG growth
    - finisher : convert 5% of foreign CG to yours each turn (not cumulative with opener)

    Honor
    - discipline : +20% martial law value for military units near a city
    - military caste : +20% points needed to trigger a revolt/rebellion

    Freedom
    - opener : +2 RP/turn for all CG, +50% rate of autonomy demands
    - free speech : -50% of RP malus for separatist, +1 RP/turn for all CG
    - finisher : +5 RP/turn for all CG

    Autocracy
    - populism : +20% culture conversion for your CG on city capture
    - fascism : -5% foreign CG value/turn
    - police state : +33% point needed to trigger revolt/rebellion

    Order
    - opener : +20% points needed to trigger revolt/rebellion
    - nationalism : -50% separatist CG growth
    - socialism : +100% rate of RP change based on happiness value
    - communism : convert 10% of foreign CG to yours each turn
    - finisher : +100% points needed to trigger revolt/rebellion
     
  13. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    I'll implement city flipping with next version, done a few test and will ponder the chance of revolt in a city with happy citizen too, right now the calculation are based only on the unhappy ones, which triggers revolt a bit early IMO.
     
  14. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Information seems important to me in the aspect of preventing frustration, so I've worked a bit on the UI with a screen to summarize the Empire stability... Here's a WIP :

     
  15. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    To simplificate unstability maybe an "affinity" bar could be displayed on cities, additionnally to health bar and allied status bar for CSs. It could go from 0 (totally different culture) to 100 (same culture).
     
  16. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    That's a good idea (I like the "affinity" concept to define part of the instability value), but I'm not sure that I'll be able to add a bar to the city name without breaking compatibility with other mods (like VEM or any that change the city information in world view).
     
  17. Catalonia

    Catalonia Warlord

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    Where can I download it?
     
  18. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    in this post. (and please read the note about alpha)

    I'm going to release another alpha version soon, with more infos.
     
  19. Catalonia

    Catalonia Warlord

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    Very thanks!
     
  20. jeffah3539

    jeffah3539 Leviathan

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    I tried a couple of games with the mod and it looks really cool! :goodjob: Here are some notes on my games:

    First game I played as Japan and decided to recklessly expand and conquer a nearby CS to try to get some rebellion going. Boy did that get out of hand :lol:.

    I sent a force of Swordsmen south and conquered Rio de Janeiro a considerable distance from my capital. I decided to intentionally not station my army near the city to try to provoke a rebellion. At turn 119, success!:
    Spoiler :

    At first it didn't seem too bad because my Swordsmen were there to mop up but things soon got out of hand:
    Spoiler :

    By turn 150 things had gotten crazy. Rio was spawning a new Pikeman almost every turn and my Swords didn't have enough time to heal to quash the rebellion. The rebels took Tokyo soon after this. The worst part of the rebellion was that it totally destroyed my economy. It forced me to maintain a large standing army and destroyed my ability to generate :c5science: and :c5gold:. By turn 150 I was a full era behind the AI and the game was lost.

    I decided to start another game to try to play more reasonably to counter rebellion. I went for a GL/NC 2 city science start for this game to try to avoid over-expanding. I made a crucial error, however. I settled my second city, Si Satchanalai, 5 tiles away from my capital instead of the maximum 4. This came back to bite me. Things were going pretty well except for an early Warrior rush against me by Genghis but I was pretty pleased with my progress overall. But then Si Satchanalai started generating Separatist culture, and generating it quickly. The city was connected to the capital by road but that didn't seem to slow it down at all. I tried to station a Warrior nearby but that didn't seem to slow it. Around turn 85 it started revolting and spawning Pikemen. Uh-oh :eek:, my army consisted entirely of Warriors and I had only just researched Civil Service. No problem, I'm sure I have time to build some units, I thought. But by turn 93 this was the situation:
    Spoiler :

    Si Satchanalai will almost certainly fall on the next turn :(. I have no Iron resources near my territory and the rebel army consists entirely of Pikemen so building Horse units won't be very useful. All I can do is hope I can build more Pikemen than them and take it back that way.

    My thoughts:
    1. It seems like the generation of separatist culture is a little overtuned. Maybe I just need to learn how to play better but it didn't seem like routes or units countered it much if at all.
    2. The happiness adjustment might need to be altered. I never went into unhappiness in either of these games but I also never managed to get to more than +5:c5happy: for long stretches. I was a bit unlucky to not get a lot of happy resources to settle near. I think your notes say that you need 10:c5happy: to not generate separatist culture but I almost never have that much :c5happy: until the late Medieval era and it usually doesn't last very long.
    3. You might need to increase the maximum distance from the capital before separatist culture starts generating to 5 or 6. Sometimes it is just difficult to find decent city locations that close to your capital. If you could also adjust the scaling so that a city 5 tiles away only generates a little bit of separatist culture while a city farther away generates a lot more that would help.
    4. Both games the rebellions started happening right after I hit the Medieval era. This meant that the rebels were spawning a ton of Pikemen while my army was still fielding Classical or even Ancient units. It was more noticeable in my science game because I had no Iron and because I hit the Medieval era much earlier so I had very little time to upgrade my army before the rebels spawned. It might be better to have the rebels spawn slightly outdated units like Spearmen in the Medieval era since they can spawn so many so quickly.

    Some ideas:
    1. Maybe instead of spawning a single unit regularly for a rebellion you could reduce the probability of them spawning and spawn 3-4 units at a time. This would make them more dangerous and frightening when they spawn but then they are gone for some time once they are defeated.
    2. Maybe you could also make it so that cities you found are less likely to rebel than captured cities. It just seemed a little excessive that my second city, which was only 5 tiles from my capital, rebelled before turn 100.

    I am going to keep playing my current game to see if I can turn it around but it doesn't look good. I will let you know if anything interesting happens. I kinda want to see how the AI handles it. Looking through the Lua log it looks like some of their cities are starting to generate a lot of separatist culture and should spawn some rebels soon.
     

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