RFC Europe: Civics Discussion Thread

I will necro this decade-old thread! Because why not use it, when it's there.
While the existing civics work well, I have a few suggestions.
1. Slavery
How I imagine it in the game:
It should obviously not be as broken as in Vanilla Civ BtS. You would have a chance to capture slaves when winning a battle or when sacking a city. These slaves could be used to be sold in one of your cities with a market. Maybe the :gold: could depend on the city's trade routes similar to a Trade Mission of a Great Merchant. They could be used to hurry production (maybe like 15 to 20 :hammers:). And you could decide to free your slaves for a similarly small :food: bonus. I don't think they should be able to improve your tiles as in Fall from Heaven II.
Other than enabling you to capture slaves (and free upkeep for a few slave units) it should give plantations a higher yield and maybe quarries. This would make it an appealing civic for the Arabs and maybe the Byzantinians.
Why should it be in th game:
It existed in Europe in the early Middle Ages and in Islamic countries until the 19th century. It's also fitting gameplay-wise for every combat centered early civ like the Vikings, Bulgarians, Arabs, maybe even the Franks. It could also be used by Merchant Republics with their high income through Trade Routes.

2. Religious Tolerance or at least Acceptance
The Arabs should be presented to tolerate Christians and Jews in conquered cities. Right now, the Arabs get punished for different religions in their cities more than the other civs.
A suited civic should probably be added.
Also, it should be questioned if civs that are not in Religious Tolerance should be able to build the corresponding religious buildings.

4. City number limits of civics
Those limits are way too restricting. No civ stays at six, let alone five, cities when played by a human. Take Scotland for example: The perfect candidate for Bureaucracy, right? Only two cities in Scotland required. Well, settle all the isles, conquer Wales to aquire the stone for your castles. There you are at 6 cities. But you have to protect your now split territory from England so you conquer Northumbria. And what's that island over there? Ireland? I take it! And then you're already at 10 cities or more.
Not to mention Genoa and the Merchant Republic.
Of course, you don't collapse as soon as you found your 7th city. But it's the question why this civic exists in the game. When it's there just to be used by the AI, maybe some changes are to be made.

If there are no limits to the civics, then having a Slavery civic makes perfect sense to add. Similar to the SOI civic; +1 unhappiness in each city in exchange for +1 commerce for every plantation, +25% worker speed, And possibly an early civic unique building: a slave market which gives more production/wealth at the expense of more unhappiness?

Even though there is a “labor/social” category, I would place it between decentralization and manorialism. But it could just as easily go in the labor category.

How much instability does a player get from each non-state religion in a city? I would imagine that it’s less under paganism and religious tolerance. Would it be better to exchange some of that for infrequent and minor city revolts where non state religions are present?

I also dislike the city limits on merchant capitalism and bureaucracy. Would it be better to gradually adjust the stability penalty or have a high distance and city number maintenance?

I also like adding a Monasticism civic to the religion category (or to replace the organized religion option). And also a Nobility civic (or to replace the bureaucracy option), but the bureaucracy civic doesn’t make much sense in the legal category.
 
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Incoming long post. Since there is no five limit to each civic category, I looked at them all to see if there were any possible changes. Several books at my disposal helped me think of these ideas the other night. However, I did not parse down the gameplay data/mechanics to balance them. I don't understand all of the balancing needed despite playing civ for so long, so I am looking at this from a historically accurate perspective, not necessarily one that will fit neatly into gameplay. All of this is my opinion in regards to civic changes.


Legal: every civic has the word "law" in its name except for the oddball "Bureaucracy". So that one civic is the odd one out because every other one is strictly legal. I originally wanted Bureaucracy to be replaced with a civic named "Nobility" but it would still be the odd one. The simpler solution would be to remove Bureaucracy and replace it with something like "Roman Law." This would cover most of Europe (including Eastern Europe where it's law is descendant from Byzantine Farmer's Law, which itself is originally from Roman Law) between transitioning from Feudal Law without jumping all the way to Common Law. I am not sure what the effect should be, however, it would ensure every option is specifically Legal.

However, I am expecting the game's timeline to change, which would enable room for more techs during the Middle Ages. I would expect a tech named "Natural Law" to enable Roman Law.


Religion:
Spoiler :
I think the general layout is ok, but I never understood what "Organized Religion" was. I would rather replace it with a civic named "Monasticism" which is available from the Monasticism tech with a low upkeep. Paganism covers itself obviously, State Religion covers having a state religion but keeps others confined, Theocracy is essentially religious law and being intolerant to other religions present, and religious freedom is the reformed option.

My rough idea for Monasticism would be: +50% great person birth rate in cities with state religion. Unlimited priests. Monasteries produce +1 happiness? Low upkeep.

Whatever the foreign religion penalty is, can it be reduced for state religion compared to theocracy?


Economy: this is my favorite since I love economics and history! I see at least one, and up to three potential additions. However, I don't think we will end up with a category containing eight options. There are already three decent choices a player is left with towards the end game.
Spoiler :

Decentralization is fine, although it could be renamed to "Tribute" to reflect taxation, but that's only superficial. Technically Subjugation can be renamed tribute as well, it I doubt that's needed.
Manorialism is fine. It represents the feudal economic structure, especially the early Middle Ages.
Trade economy is fine. It's a good option as Europe enters the high Middle Ages.
Guilds is fine. It's a more worker oriented organization, but it only represents artisans to an extent.
Mercantilism is great for the end game, where the timeline (either 1700 or 1800) concludes.

Additions: the stronger idea I have in mind is "Commercial Houses." The weaker ideas I have are "State Monopoly" and "Ecclesiastical." I will explain.

Commercial Houses: this represents larger company/financial families, nobility, and enterprises compared to the artisan based Guilds. In other words: Medici, Fuggers, etc. This would be a civic to benefit the new company system and other financials. I would imagine benefits towards market buildings as well as banks, but also something with companies (maybe +50% resource bonus with companies). I imagine a civic specific building enabled with this. Maybe an "Estate" building with commercial improvements?
Ecclesiastical: this would represent Church holdings and economic structure based around the church's economic Policies. Think St. Thomas Aquinas. Possible benefits would focus on Improved religious buildings like churches and monasteries (+1 or 2 production?) , it would penalize commerce to some extent, thinking of usury, and maybe double faith points earned.
State Monopoly: Europe had plenty of monopolies controlled by the state descended from regalian rights, and this is common throughout much of world history; Alum, copper, salt, iron, amber, etc. I'm not sure what the effects would be. Maybe a small production and commerce bonus for the capital, or increased bonuses for specialists?

I do not see much room for a "Free Market/Physiocrat" civic option because the timeline falls short (I'm thinking of 1700 becoming the new timeline). Trade economy covers it for the most part.


Labor: the good is that this is strictly a "labor" civic category, and not a mix of "social." This helps a lot since labor is technically a subset of economics. The bad is that you cannot shift any "social" civic ideas here. El Bogus mentioned adding Slavery to this category, and I think this is the best idea. This would bridge the odd "tribal" option that represents barbaric and early Islamic civs with the purely medieval represented by Serfdom.

My rough idea for an effect would be: an increase in worker production (+25%) , +1 production and/or commerce from quarries and plantations, but also +1 unhappiness in each city. Similar to SOI.


Government: this category is the most solid in my opinion, and I do not believe it needs any additions or significant changes. The way I see it: Despotism covers early decentralized Europe as well as Islamic civs; Feudal Monarchy covers feudal governments; Divine Monarchy covers a more centralized state typically with religious backing; Limited Monarchy covers a government with "some" checks and balances in theory; and Merchant Republic is the only republic civic.

The only change I would consider: maybe have Despotism with a -50% or so city maintenance distance cost modifier. This would help larger early civs, especially Arabia.


Expansion: I don't have any major suggestions here, except for adding an SOI based one. I'm not sure how it would work, but their "Empire" civic had: -40% stability penalty for expansion and -40% city modifier. Maybe this could be worked into one of the weaker civic options here like Imperialism? To be fair I haven't used Imperialism in game even thugh it has +1 stability for every city in less than stable land. Seems like a roughly equivalent exchange there.


Side notes:
City limit civics can either be adjusted to gradually become unstable with more cities, or have their maintenances increased (not only upkeep, but also city distance and number modifiers). This would de-incentivize larger players from adopting these civics. For example, a +150% city maintenance modifier...

Leftovers: Bureaucracy, Nobility, and Estates-General* (early parliament style civic). I wanted that last one in some form in a social/power category, but there is no social/power category present, and I don't think a 7th category will be added.

If there was a "social" or "power" category, I would imagine it having: Barbarism/Tribal/Warlords; Clergy; Nobility; Bureaucracy; Magistrates/Jurists; and Estates-General. These six would represent favored "power" sources for the type of government. I like them, but they are leftovers from the structure we have.

Other names I couldn't really find a place for: Meritocracy, or a monetary civic.

Conclusion: I had a lot of fun digging through pages to find these ideas :)
Edit: tidied up sentences.
 
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Colonialism should be replaced. Did sby ever used it? I mean players. Maybe as the Dutch, but there stability is irrelevant anyway. In any other cases it's bad. So that's a free change.

Organized reliogon is also a thing I never used. But would hear about it. When and how was it useful to anyone?

Imho divine monarchy could use some boost too.
 
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