RFC Europe: Dynamic civ names

[micbic]

An idea I had viewed in earlier, much earlier posts, and which I would agree with, is the concept of dynamic civ naming, what means that, by chronological criteria, a civ would change its name, eg Lothringen --> Burgundy (by 1300 AD), Norse --> Danes (by Swedish spawns), Holy Roman Empire --> Brandenburg (by 1650 AD) --> Prussia (by 1750 AD). This way, the mod would attain some more historical accuracy, without losing any of gameplay fun.

Is it technically possible? What do you think about that?

 

[sedna17]

Currently in vanilla RFC, dynamic city names happen as a function of:

1) Civic (normally government civic)
2) Era
3) Vassal (and if of someone specific)
4) Religion (specifically Islamic countries get different names)
5) Size of empire

I think it probably works pretty well if we keep the same basic structure-- with the additional benefit that existing civs have a lot of the names already started. Not all combinations/cases are covered. It's a bit tricky to explain how exactly it works -- if I have time later I'll post a detailed example of one Civ from RFC.

We don't currently have eras implemented, but will be doing this, and it probably makes most sense to have the names change at these era boundary marks. I think the first three eras are well established as:

Early Medieval: 500 - 1000
High Medieval: 1000 - 1300
Late Medieval: 1300 - 1500

And it's less certain if we want to break up the end of the game into several eras or not. "Early Modern" would be fine for the whole period 1500 -1800, or we could call the whole period "Renaissance", or we could do:

Renaissance: 1500 - 1600
Early Modern/Age of Enlightenment/Something else: 1600 - 1800

Civ, of course, has five eras.

The "Civ Discussion Thread" definitely mentions some suggestions for name evolution. I think a good way to begin is to start with complete lists of names we'd like to commonly see each Civ go through, and from there we can see if the current model of cases fits these names well. We can certainly repeat/duplicated names so not every Civ needs a separate name for every cases. We'll also have to come up with some "fantasy" names of course, for alternate histories.

 

[micbic]

Currently in vanilla RFC, dynamic city names happen as a function of:

1) Civic (normally government civic)
2) Era
3) Vassal (and if of someone specific)
4) Religion (specifically Islamic countries get different names)
5) Size of empire

I think it probably works pretty well if we keep the same basic structure-- with the additional benefit that existing civs have a lot of the names already started. Not all combinations/cases are covered. It's a bit tricky to explain how exactly it works -- if I have time later I'll post a detailed example of one Civ from RFC.

We don't currently have eras implemented, but will be doing this, and it probably makes most sense to have the names change at these era boundary marks. I think the first three eras are well established as:

Early Medieval: 500 - 1000
High Medieval: 1000 - 1300
Late Medieval: 1300 - 1500

And it's less certain if we want to break up the end of the game into several eras or not. "Early Modern" would be fine for the whole period 1500 -1800, or we could call the whole period "Renaissance", or we could do:

Renaissance: 1500 - 1600
Early Modern/Age of Enlightenment/Something else: 1600 - 1800

Civ, of course, has five eras.

The "Civ Discussion Thread" definitely mentions some suggestions for name evolution. I think a good way to begin is to start with complete lists of names we'd like to commonly see each Civ go through, and from there we can see if the current model of cases fits these names well. We can certainly repeat/duplicated names so not every Civ needs a separate name for every cases. We'll also have to come up with some "fantasy" names of course, for alternate histories.

Civ has seven eras, I think (Ancient, Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern, Future). Future can be represented by Industrial, so six eras are quite appropriate for the mod.

As for the RFC naming concept, I have somehow understood it (further explanations are always welcome). I remember playing as Japan and being myself a People's Republic. Mali was renamed to French West Africa when a French vassal, and to Mali Tributary States when a Chinese one. Spain was a Chaliphate when Islamic.

I haven't searched yet for civ-appropriate names, though I will do it and submit a list before Friday.

 

[Cethegus]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7299359&postcount=3

Some sort of list of dynamic civ names would indeed be appropriate. Should Kingdoms and Empires be represented by different civics or when an empire grows large enough?

 

[jessiecat]

Civ has seven eras, I think (Ancient, Classical, Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern, Future). Future can be represented by Industrial, so six eras are quite appropriate for the mod.

As for the RFC naming concept, I have somehow understood it (further explanations are always welcome). I remember playing as Japan and being myself a People's Republic. Mali was renamed to French West Africa when a French vassal, and to Mali Tributary States when a Chinese one. Spain was a Chaliphate when Islamic.

I haven't searched yet for civ-appropriate names, though I will do it and submit a list before Friday.

Just to help you with your list. Here's one for Cordoba based very roughly on historical dates.

700 -920 The Emirate of Cordoba
920 -1040 The Caliphate of Cordoba
1040 -1500 The Islamic Kingdom of Cordoba (fictional)
or just the Kingdom of Cordoba if a vassal of Spain or Portugal

 

[micbic]

Nice one, though I would propose these names for Islamic civs:
1) Chaliphate (when and not run any Monarchy)
Seeing your list, a 2) Islamic Kingdom option would be good if running any of Monarchies.

Christian civs are more difficult. That is what I have currently made up:
1) Prefix Holy when religious civic is Theocracy or State Religion (?)
2) Tribe when Government Civic is Despotism, Republic when Government civic is Electorate or Republic, and Kingdom for any else.

Generic Empire naming if any of Imperialism or Colonialism adopted.

Vassal naming:
Exarchate of ... for Byzantines, Autonomous State of... for Britons, Khaganate of... for Bulgarians, Kievan, Muscowites, Emirate of... for Ottomans, Arabs, Cordobans, Duchy of... for anyone else.

A list with changes like Eastern Roman---> Byzantine will come up later.

Any proposals welcome.

 

[jessiecat]

It depends how much we want to reproduce history. In the case of Cordoba we're only talking up to 1031 when the Caliphate of Cordoba broke up into rival city states called "taifa" states. Then came the fundamentalist Almoravid and Almohad dynasties ruling from North Africa until the early 1200's when they reverted back to little emirate city states which were conquered one by one by the Christians until the fall of the Kingdom of Granada in 1492. For our game purposes "Emirate" then "Caliphate" then "Kingdom" should be enough for Cordoba.

For the Arabs the history is much more complicated with all the different Sunni and Shia Caliphates, the Seljuks, the Ottomans, the Mamelukes, various Persian dynasties etc. In the later stages both the Arab and Ottoman dynasties tended to be ruled by Sultans rather than Emirs or Caliphs so Sultanate is good term for us to use for the later empires. So "Emirate", "Caliphate" and "Sultanate" should work for the Arabs and the Ottomans. We should try to keep it fairly simple in choosing dynamic names for these or we'll just get bogged down in the dozens of factions and regime changes that went on throughout the period of our mod.

 

[micbic]

Arab civ could only come as Arabs and Mameluks, name change at 1200 AD.
I agree with the Sultanate proposal, since it is more appropriate and accurate than Islamic Kingdom(dropped). In these terms, Cordoba, Arabia and Ottoman Turkey should become Sultanates when adopting either Constitutional or Divine Monarchy (fiction history in Cordoba case, real in both).

 

[jessiecat]

Arab civ could only come as Arabs and Mameluks, name change at 1200 AD.
I agree with the Sultanate proposal, since it is more appropriate and accurate than Islamic Kingdom(dropped). In these terms, Cordoba, Arabia and Ottoman Turkey should become Sultanates when adopting either Constitutional or Divine Monarchy (fiction history in Cordoba case, real in both).

As much as I like the concept of dynamic civ names (which I do.) don't you think there are lots of more important work that has to done in other areas to get this mod playable? Civ names, like flags and ethnicallly-diverse units are pretty cosmetic compared to bugs and game-play issues, don't you think?

 

[micbic]

I agree, but working on many fronts at a time will make the mod ready quicker. I know it is a secondary-importance-thread, I would have no problem the idea to be implemented in 2014. It is just for proposals right now.

 

[Cethegus]

As much as I like the concept of dynamic civ names (which I do.) don't you think there are lots of more important work that has to done in other areas to get this mod playable? Civ names, like flags and ethnicallly-diverse units are pretty cosmetic compared to bugs and game-play issues, don't you think?

Brainstorming for dynamic civ naming doesn't require much specialization in coding or similiar skills while art discussion does. Besides, we already have separate threads for RFCE art, dynamic civ naming, play-test feedback and bugs. Surely we can allow conversation to take place in other threads than the ones with the most important issues for change, don't you think?

 

[jessiecat]

Brainstorming for dynamic civ naming doesn't require much specialization in coding or similiar skills while art discussion does. Besides, we already have separate threads for RFCE art, dynamic civ naming, play-test feedback and bugs. Surely we can allow conversation to take place in other threads than the ones with the most important issues for change, don't you think?

I agree with both of you, of course. It's only that'd I'd hate to see us take our eyes off the ball in trying to get the mod to beta stage ASAP. Which means getting the gameplay and balance issues worked out first. And I do
feel that 2014 is a tad pessimistic even for me. Merry Xmas.

 

[Cethegus]

I agree with both of you, of course. It's only that'd I'd hate to see us take our eyes off the ball in trying to get the mod to beta stage ASAP. Which means getting the gameplay and balance issues worked out first. And I do
feel that 2014 is a tad pessimistic even for me. Merry Xmas.

Of course balance and gameplay issues should be given proper attention. It's just that the number of people who can contribute to balance issues is ever so limited and that kind of people need something else to do, too. I'd love to help but the most I can do is fiddle around with XML and I'm sure the development team has more need for coders than people who can do "just" that.

Merry Xmas, though. I have to say I love this holiday layout.

EDIT:
"Just" meaning just XML, referring to myself. As much as I'd love to help I doubt I could do much but I have some ideas. I'm sure it's not just me who feels like one can contribute by sharing ideas for others to be implemented or considered. Right now we're doing just that - if we can help some other way, please do tell us of such way.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Members like I can work on these little details like dynamic civ names, as many of us can't use Python or XML or whatever you guys use in creating this mod. You people can say "this thing here is unbalanced, so I altered these paragraphs here and switched some numbers and now it works", while people like I can only say "this thing here is unbalanced, could someone please fix it?" Brainstorming these names is one of the rare things where everyone can help you guys at least a bit.

 

[micbic]

Finally come up with a list, given sedna's proposal for eras.

Eastern Roman (500-1000 AD) ---> Byzantine (1000 AD and so on to the bitter end)
Frankish (500-1000 AD) ---> French (1000 AD and so on)
Burgundian (500 or 850 - is there still debate for the spawn?- to the end)
Arab (620 -1000 AD) ---> Mamluk (1000 AD-the bitter end)
Bulgarian (steady ones, no change)
Cordoban (same as above)
Castillan (720-1500 AD) ---> Spanish (all remaining years)
Norse (780 AD-1500 AD) ---> Dane (1500 AD-1800 AD)
Venezian (no change too)
Kievan (884-1300 AD) ---> Crimean (1300 AD -1800 AD)
Magyar (900 AD-1000 AD) ---> Hungarian (1000 AD-end of history)
German (940 AD-1600 AD) ---> Prussian (Only Enlightment)
Polish (972 AD-1300 AD) ---> Polish-Lithuanian (to the end)
Genoan (all timespan)
Muskowan (1000 AD-1500 AD) ---> Russian (the 300 years left)
English (1066 AD - battle of Hastings as spawn date? - to 1600 AD) ---> British (1600 AD and everything else)
Austrian (1172 AD-1500 AD) ---> Habsburg (1500 AD-1800 AD)
Ottomans (no name change)
Dutch (same as above)
Swedish (same, no time to change name)

The suffixes-prefixes are as in post 6 and 8.
Once again-this is not a high priority thread. Any proposals welcome.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

Finally come up with a list, given sedna's proposal for eras.

Eastern Roman (500-1000 AD) ---> Byzantine (1000 AD and so on to the bitter end)
Frankish (500-1000 AD) ---> French (1000 AD and so on)
Burgundian (500 or 850 - is there still debate for the spawn?- to the end)
Arab (620 -1000 AD) ---> Mamluk (1000 AD-the bitter end)
Bulgarian (steady ones, no change)
Cordoban (same as above)
Castillan (720-1500 AD) ---> Spanish (all remaining years)
Norse (780 AD-1400 AD) ---> Union of Kalmar (1400 AD-1500 AD) --> Denmark (1500 AD-end of game)
Venezian (no change too)
Kievan no change needed, Crimea was ruled by a Tatar khan, if Kiev wasn't conquered they wouldn't have most likely altered their name
Magyar (900 AD-1000 AD) ---> Hungarian (1000 AD-end of history)
Holy Roman Empire, there was no nation called Germany before 1871, and most likely Germany/HRE will have a bigger area than Prussia controlled
Polish (972 AD-1300 AD) ---> Polish-Lithuanian (when Poland controls Poland and Lithuania)
Genoan (all timespan)
Muskowan (1000 AD-1500 AD) ---> Russian (when Muscovy has at least X amount of cities)
English (1066 AD - battle of Hastings as spawn date? - to 1600 AD) ---> British (when England controls British Isles)
Austrian (1172 AD-1500 AD) ---> Habsburg (1500 AD-1800 AD)
Ottomans (no name change)
Dutch (same as above)
Swedish (same, no time to change name)

The suffixes-prefixes are as in post 6 and 8.
Once again-this is not a high priority thread. Any proposals welcome.

Bolded my suggestions of changes.

 

[jessiecat]

My idea for these three.

Emirate of Cordoba (720-900) > Caliphate of Cordoba (900-1250) > Marinid Sultanate (1250-1500) > Idrisid Sultanate (1500-1800).

Ummayad Caliphate> (630-900) > Abbasid Caliphate (900-1250) > Mamluk Sultanate (1250-1800)

Kingdom of Leon (720-900) > Crown of Castille (900-1500) > Kingdom of Spain (1500-1800)

 

[micbic]

Revamped list, two major changes
1) Incorporated changes proposed by both of you (to fit sedna's era timeline, I suited them)
2) Names only change by eras.

Eastern Roman Empire (500-1000)---> Byzantine Empire (1000-1800)
Frankish Kingdom (500-1000)---> French Kingdom (1000-1800)---> French Empire (when controls historical territory as in UHV)
Burgundian Kingdom (500-1300)---> Duchy of Burgundy (1300-1800)
Ummayad Chaliphate (630-1000)---> Abbasid Chaliphate (1000-1300)---> Mamluk Sultanate (1300-1800)
Bulgarian Chaganate (620-1000) ---> Bulgarian Tsardom (1000-1800)
Emirate of Cordoba (720-1000) ---> Chaliphate of Cordoba (1000-1300)---> Marinid Sultanate (1300-1800)
Leon Kingdom (720-1000) ---> Castillan Crown (1000-1500) ---> Spanish Kingdom (1500-1800) ---> Spanish Empire (when completes territorial UHV)
Norse Union (770-1300) ---> Kalmar Union (1300-1500) ---> Dane Kingdom (1500-1800)
Venezian Republic (780-1800)
Kievan Tsardom (884-1800)---> Russian Tsardom (when holds core area of both Kiev and Muscowy)
Magyar Chaganate (900-1000) ---> Kingdom of Hungary (1000-1800)
Holy Roman Empire is a debatable name. It included both Germany and Austria, so the name ''German Kingdom (940-1800)'' seems the most appropriate, even if it is alt-history. Moreover,HRE was politically dead after 15th century.
Polish Kingdom (972-1800) ---> Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (by area held)
Republic of Genoa (1027-1800)
Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (1000-1300) ---> Grand Duchy of Moscow (1300-1800) ---> Russian Tsardom (same as Kievan)
Kingdom of England (1066-1800) ---> British Empire (when territorial UHV completed)
Portuguese Kingdom (1100-1800)
Kingdom of Austria (1172-1800) ---> Habsburg Empire (when territorial UHV completed)
Ottoman Sultanate (1300-1800)
Kingdom of Sweden (1500-1800) ---> Swedish Empire (by territorial UHV comnpleted)
Dutch Republic (1550-1800)

Once more proposals welcome.

 

[3Miro]

The name of a civ in RFC is a direct function of era, religion, civics and vassal state. Era is technology based, i.e. we need to split the tech tree into blocks to have different eras. We can replace the eras by fixed years or simply religion/civic/vassalage.

Suppose we pick to use religion + government civic. We need to cover all possibilities, i.e. Pagan/Islamic/Christian, Despotic/Monarchy/Republic types of government. Not everything needs to be unique:
Pagan + Despotic: Bulgarian Khanate
Islamic + Despotic: Bulgarian Khanate
Christian + Despotic: Bulgarian Knyajestvo
Christian + Monarchy: Bulgarian Tzardom
Islamic + Monarchy: Bulgarian Khanate
Pagan + Monarchy: Bulgarian Khanate
Any Religion + Republic: Bulgaria

Just an example. This needs to be coded both XML and C++, but it should not be too had.

 

[Michael Vick]

This thread is really dying. Are any changes going to me made to the current names? "Frankia" throughout the whole game is kinda annoying.