RFC Europe: Kyivan Rus and East Europe

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by PSYX, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. PSYX

    PSYX Warlord

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    In this topic, there will be updnes materials for these countries: Kyivan Rus and their neighbours. Accumulated information on this topic from the site of russian-speaking players - civfanatics.ru, it will be also uploaded here and updated.

    I will start to add the cities of Kyivan Rus to CityNameHelper_v12.

    Information about Kyivan Rus ("Kyiv" in game).

    Dynamic names:

    ... (will be later)

    Cities of Kyivan Rus:

    Kyivan names (on "kyivan" (ukrainian) language):

    Bilgorod (980), Biloozero (862 ?), Vasylkiv (988), Vyshgorod (946), Ovruch (977), Izborsk (862), Korosten (945), Kyiv (880 ?), Ladoga (862), Liubech (882), Murom (862), Novgorod (859), Peresichen (922), Peremyshl (980), Pereyaslavl (907), Polotsk (862), Pskov (903), Roden (980 ?), Rostov (862), Smolensk (863 ?), Turiv (980), Cherven (981), Chernihiv (907), Protolche (Zaporizhzhya) (end of 10 century, 1103 ?)

    Moskowian names: (on "moscowian" (russian) language)

    Bilgorod - Belgorod,
    Biloozero - Beloozero,
    Vasylkiv - Vasilev,
    Ovruch - Vruchy
    Korosten - Iskorosten,
    Kyiv - Kiev,
    Peresichen - Peresechen,
    Turiv - Turov,
    Chernihiv - Chernigov

    Poland names:

    Peremyshl - Przemyśl

    Swedish names:

    Ladoga - Aldeigjuborg

    Deutch names:

    Peremyshl - Prömsel

    Notes:
    ? - inexact dates
    (...) - the dates of foundation

    Cities of the neighbours of Kyivan Rus:
    ... (will be later)

    Map terrain:
    ... (will be later)

    CityNameHelper_v12 cities updates:
    ... (will be later)
     
  2. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    CivFanatics.ru's user papa1 has edited north-east part of map in RFCEurope.CivBeyondSwordWBSave

    He added and improved river system and relief (more hills and plains). Also he placed some labels by realistic historical cities of Kievan Rus.

    Now I'm (CivFanatics.ru's user White Hawk) working about Moskovian cities placing on every tiles in area from Moscow_settlermap.png.

    We have some questions now:
    1. How about our map (original papa1's map attached) - can RFCE-Team use our map in next versions of Mod?
    2. Geographically, on the current map there is no place for Astrakhan and Kazan too :( - First Moskovian UFV has no reason. Astrakhan and Kazan are the cities, which placed "upper" on map than Caspian Sea, not Caucasus or Black Sea.
    Can RFCE-Team expand map to the east (5-7 tile's columns) or change moskovian UHV?

    File with Moskovian cities we will post later (may be PSYX halp to us)

    PS
    Sorry by my moskovian english :blush:
     

    Attached Files:

  3. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    I am sure we can accommodate the city name placing. We actually needed an update for the Russian territories. I will make sure to tell micbic.

    Expanding the map, however, would cause trouble. All map arrays and most of the UHVs would have to be recoded. Consider +7 tiles eastwards. That means that Arabia and Turkey would get more land and hence be even less likely to go west towards Europe. Also Moscow and Kiev would get some more land, but those have enough already (each has more land that they can easily claim than anyone else, except the Arabs perhaps). Kiev and Moscow are already the largest in territory. Would you guys be willing to perhaps rearange the cities to add Kazan anyway.

    Right now, the biggest Moscowan UHV challenge is to liberate Kiev (and later beat Bulgaria in culture). That gives Moscow plenty of Barbs to combat.

    I will try to accommodate the map changes, there might be a conflict with the Hungarian updates, I will try to resolve it.
     
  4. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Ptitsa Consul, what is your comment about Heroes of Might and Magic? I am a big fan of that game too.
     
  5. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    Yes, as for me, HOMM (especially HOMM III) - is one of the best fantasy-style TBS :)
    Last version V, I think, so particular to PC's configuration and HOMM IV is very differ from others.
    And now I like to play new "King's Bounty" by Katauri Interactive (freelance is cool :))

    What about map: we are very glad to help for update "our" territory :)

    I asked to map creator about "rearange the cities to add Kazan anyway". He answered, that this way is not realistic, literally "We can. We can rearange cites of London or Paris too".
    If changing map size is so problematic, may be create fictive Kazan and Astrakhan places or new projects (as Panama etc), which first time accessible only for Moskovians - They can give to owner access to keshiks or same, for example... We'll think about this...

    About "beat Bulgaria in culture" UHV - I played by Moskovian on Monarch (Alpha 4). All UHVs are so easy :( Last UHV is easiest - more than 15 cities and Drama :)

    Moskovia (Tzardom of Moskow and Rusiian Emrpire later) all times from Ivan IV to Peter I and later aspired to give access to seas Baltic and Black. And to give "The Straits" (The Bosporus and The Dardanelles) were the best wish of many russian leaders... May be, RFCE-Team can to transform this fact to last UHV?
     
  6. Myri

    Myri Warlord

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    I agree, moscow at emporer, nothing to do. Would be nice if ottomans and moscow actually fight for constantinople, give them tanks :)

    bye Myri
     
  7. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Heroes IV had too much RPG elements for a TBS and to little RPG elements for an actual RPG. Heroes V is what IV should have been.

    I proposed the third Moscowan UHV to represent the shift (and preservation) of Slavic culture from the Balkans to Russia after the Ottoman invasion. There is the suggestion to also include Byzantium to make it harder, however, if the Byzantines fall historically this becomes trivial.

    We can make the Russian UHV: have 1 Atlantic Access in year something. That would mean war with Sweden or the Norse or good trade/relations with Spain or England/France. Alternatively, we can ask for "control" of the Black or Baltic seas. We will have to define "control", hold Constantinople or have x number of cities on the Baltic coast.

    For Kazan: extending the map with doing all the work in coding + more re-balancing of the middle east just for the sake of Kazan is unreasonable. (You cannot compare the importance of Kazan with that of Paris, London and Moscow) We can add a few later Keshik spawns to represent Kazan. Adding "conquest of Kazan" as a Russian project is probably not a good idea. If you have Boyars (13), you will never build Keshiks (12) and there is plenty of Fur and Game in Russia. We were thinking about a Siberian Colonization project, but we gave it up for it didn't seem to provide any real benefit.

    BTW: there is no such thing as RFCE-Team. We are all the team (yourself included). Sedna17 and I are doing most of the coding (pretty much all of it) with micbic being in charge of he maps and jessiecat giving valuable historical advice with his great knowledge and resources. However, many more people have contributed in terms of maps, art, suggestions, discussions and so on.
     
  8. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    Yes, of course! !!! :) But HOMM V, as for me, is only beautiful version of HOMM III in many cases... New conception of Necromancy is good, but we lost swamp-rase with those defence bonuses and dark-elf rase is not the best alternative for classical Dungeon :(

    This is good idea! I like it :)!!! (I say only for me and papa1 in most of all ideas)

    Yes of course. We have said it emotionally... We want only more realistic mod :)

    Access to "keshiks" I said only for example... I am thinking about benefits of Siberia, and I don't know now about this... Siberian conquest is great thing for Moskovia, but it is not colonial conquest, of course (it no equal to other projects on mod). May be this UHV is not EUROPEAN UHV? Moskow added other territory of Golden Horde only (as one of the vassals of Golden Horde). It is not european event, only russian (or global)

    Very good! War against Sweden is real war in russian (moskovian) history. And Moskovia was adversary for Poland. Polish troops captured Moskow on the beginning of XV century, but moskovian guerillas and people's volunteer corps freed Moskow. It is very strange in realistic mod to see pleasured Poland to Moskovia...

    To hold Constantinople may be to last moskovian UHV. In real history Moskovia=Russian Empire had many war against Ottomans. Alived Byzantines in XIII century is so strange too (in realistic mod). Constantinople was falled and captured of turks in 1453...

    We understand it, yes of course. We want localise our ideas only for russian history, and we shall glad to have all-european strategy. (Russia is not only Europe. bu thi fact if not so significal, isn'n it?)
     
  9. Michael Vick

    Michael Vick #1

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    yes of "course", you mean?
    and Siberian Colonization could provide units or just raw production bonuses.
     
  10. Michael Vick

    Michael Vick #1

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    Siberian Colonization could provide units or just raw production bonuses. Idk.
     
  11. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    Yes, sorry :) Fixed now!
    I have no practice in english everyday :( I have many mistakes...

    It is not the question! The question is "what unit or what raw production bonuses" :)
     
  12. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    It is impossible to represent non-European Russia in an European mod. I think there is plenty of European Russia that can be represented.

    When one thinks about England, one thinks about sea domination and colonies, yet the the British here are represented by Longbowman (100 years war) and land bound UP. The colonies are represented as competition between England and Spain and France and the others, i.e. we represent the European part of the colonization, not the influence that England had over India and North America.

    Same with the Arabs and the Ottomans.

    The same should be with Russia.

    The war with the Golden Horde is represented as the liberation of Kiev and everything to the east is not very important (for Europe). What is important are the wars with the Ottomans, Poland and Sweden as well as the cultural preservation of the Orthodoxy and so on.

    Siberia: it had enormous impact on the Russian development, but did it have that during the time period of the mod. We did not include Alaska since all the exiting things in Alaska started in the late 19th century with the gold rush, it was useless before then (that's why Russia sold it to USA). So how big were the benefits from Siberia in the period 1300AD - 1800AD? I don't know, I am just asking.

    Also I am reluctant to include a wonder/project that can only be build by one nation. Who else can go to Siberia? Only Kiev, if they miraculously survive.

    We can include Siberia in the Russian UP. How about that?
     
  13. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    Great! :)

    As for Kazan and Astrakhan - my work about Moskovian Rus's cities is close to end - I reserved two fiction places tile for them. If my friends shell agree to me - may be this variant is solution of that problem. But Russian UP is more wonderful solution, yes :)
     
  14. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    How about this:
    Moscow UP: Power of Siberian land - If Russia is at war with non-Independent player, Russian units get 20% production discount.

    Russia gets to summon forces from far east and thus gets cheaper units. Indies and Barbs are not counted as initially Moscow will have to clean the Mongols entirely on its own, afterwards they get the discount for wars with Poland and Sweden and Turkey.

    Moscow UHV: Gain access to "warm waters": either Control Constantinople (vassalize Bulgaria/Byzantium or fight Turkey) or get one Atlantic Access (fight/vassalize Sweden and/or Denmark).
     
  15. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    I think that UP isn't very good. First, Russia could declare war on a far off player and never accept peace, which will give it the bonus for the rest of the game. Second, it's not a that useful UP, and the one we currently have fits better with Russia's UHVs. So I think only after we start some serious re-thinking the UHVs and UPs and the rest of the balancing issues we should change anything.
     
  16. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    There are issues and I agree, but with the introduction of Faith Points, Russia already gets something like its current UP, so it is in some sense doubled. Also, Russians wanted to see Siberia somehow reflected into the picture.

    I am open for other proposals.
     
  17. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I agree with you. Historically Russia was often diplomatically isolated from the rest of Europe. Maybe it's UP should result in worse foriegn modifiers. Isolation does have it's costs afterall.
     
  18. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    UP gives, doesn't take. We have to pick another one.
     
  19. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Ptitsa Consul, only just now (being busy with the Faith Points), I got a chance to look at the map that you posted. I like the new terrain and I will try to include it (without conflicting with the previous and later changes), but what is going on with the city names and years?

    We cannot include so many cities as independent, nor force the AI to settle there. Also, they are too sparse to use for city name map. For city name map we need to label ALL the tiles. Usually a city should take a 2 by 2 square and only in some special situations (Kiev, Moscow, Novgorod) more is acceptable. Otherwise you may end up having two Kiev cities on the map.
     
  20. Ptitsa Consul

    Ptitsa Consul Chieftain

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    My city signs are in looking for civfanatics.ru's users now. There are not list of needed indpendent cities. It is only (main of them) list of russian names of settler-points. I think about no force to AI settle of most of all places. We (I and my friends) thouts only for realistic names.

    Yes, it is a problem. But in some areas is too hard to search different names :( north-east of Rus' (Yugra and Vologda-lands) and south-east of european Russia (north Caucasus) are so poor for cities (and villages too) of period of 500-1800. Most of all southern moskovian cities were founded after 1650-1700... It's not a problem. We agree to sequest our list, but Khabarovsk, for example, is NEVER can be in european Russia. We can to represent a list of latest russian cities (after 1800) by areas (north, middle, south or more) for more realistic MOD. Also, some north and east lands are native mordovian, chuvashian, hanty-mansi'an (yugra) lands. That regions may be not in moskovian settlermap (I am having that area free).

    The city-abelled map we (I) can to post on nearby 2-3 days. It may contain more than 2x2 area's cities, but we are only help for you and we shell glad for any remarks for our map!

    PS
    Siberian question is (for us) not very serious problem. In European MOD Siberian question is so void. But your uderstanding of marine UHVs ig great! But! Current moskovian UP is thing, which crushed the balance of game. I played for Moskovia AND moskovian historical victory is so easy :(
     

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