RFC Europe: Papal States

[BurnEmDown]

How about letting Christian missionaries move through another civ's borders regardless of having open borders or not. Hope this doesn't sound too Racist towards Muslims but if they're allowed too then the Arab UHV will be a lot easier.

 

[civmademepoor]

Great idea, except I'd separate out the Christians after 1054. A Roman/Byzantine race before then would be fun!

 

[jessiecat]

How about letting Christian missionaries move through another civ's borders regardless of having open borders or not. Hope this doesn't sound too Racist towards Muslims but if they're allowed too then the Arab UHV will be a lot easier.

I don't really agree unless you treat all missionaries as enemy units as soon as they enter your territory. Otherwise they'd just be glorified spies with no real defence against them. Historically, foriegn missionaries would be killed on sight. Why should this mod be any different? The Arab 25% UHV is already pretty hard. Your idea would make it almost impossible.

 

[civmademepoor]

I don't really agree unless you treat all missionaries as enemy units as soon as they enter your territory. Otherwise they'd just be glorified spies with no real defence against them. Historically, foriegn missionaries would be killed on sight. Why should this mod be any different? The Arab 25% UHV is already pretty hard. Your idea would make it almost impossible.

Foreign missionaries might be martyred on sight, but they did in fact act very much like glorified spies, just think of the Byzantine outreach to Bulgaria, as a prime example of this. Or perhaps Roman Catholics in Jacobean England. Or the Inquisition.

 

[jessiecat]

Foreign missionaries might be martyred on sight, but they did in fact act very much like glorified spies, just think of the Byzantine outreach to Bulgaria, as a prime example of this. Or perhaps Roman Catholics in Jacobean England. Or the Inquisition.

I think my main objection is that the AI might exploit this idea and send out waves of missionaries to disrupt the human player. Foriegn infiltrators are frustrating enough. Waves of missionaries?

BTW. What's with the ??

 

[civmademepoor]

I think my main objection is that the AI might exploit this idea and send out waves of missionaries to disrupt the human player. Foriegn infiltrators are frustrating enough. Waves of missionaries?

BTW. What's with the ??

Well, I may be a tad drunk from the Obama celebrations earlier [still happening] (may be a tad = totally frigging blitzed and I'm shocked I can still type and hold my cigarette) but it's rare that I read about an objection that sets up the AI for an exploit.

Foreign infiltrators are annoying enough, but I think that thinking that a missionary, which has only one objective, in complete line with much of history, and open to be killed should that be the desired outcome, be a disruption to the human player, is something of a stretch; it's not like it's burning farms. Maybe a resistance bonus with an amphitheater would satisfy my personal atheistic prejudices and be a way to mollify that "exploit".

A wave of missionaries is more or less what actually happened. The Mormons got nothing on these guys. Hell, I've had more than one game where the Ottomans are RC and the English are Muslims. Let the AI spam that mess, maybe even spread Protestantism.

= worship the new Great Leader. Perhaps a new religion is in order.

Truly on the cheers part! Happy inauguration!!!

 

[jessiecat]

What I really mean is that having missionaries that could ignore borders and constantly cause unrest in cities by introducing foriegn religions is just making them into another spy unit but with no cost to their actions. Imagine what that would do to Arabia and Spain for example who have religious UHV goals. There'd be no defence against them unless you stationed prosecuters in every city. On balance, I'd rather leave missionaries much as they are now but find another way to simulate religious rivalries in Europe.

BTW Glad you enjoyed your party. Congrats and good luck with your new prez. There's lots of good will and optimism for you guys on this side of the pond too.

 

[thadian]

I say leave the papal state as unplayable.

Then, when you have time, make a scenario where you play AS the papal state with the agenda to quest as above mentioned.

I love RFC and for papal states or native leadership, i think it would be better to make an rfce-based scenario opposed to working it into the game itself. i would like to see the papal states bonus as a way to deter people from claiming cities under the control of papal states. every so often, each nation should be forced to submit a city to a conferance, and like a conference, the AI votes on what city the papal state gains control of. this means the papal state instead of building cities, is seeking to "claim" cities under the banner of the church.

this could also give a nation a way to gain penalties (You defied the pope!).

 

[Cethegus]

Not a bad idea. Can the non-playable PS's AI be improved to actually make use of the AP or is this going to be solved some other way, like congresses like already stated? I'd like to see the Pope a significant figure in Catholic European's politics in the medieval age.

And BurnEmDown, the border-ignoring missionary was originally my idea, stated earlier in this topic (post #20). I accept all the criticize that came along with it, though.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Ah, sorry, didn't read the whole topic

 

[Wessel V1]

Although I don't know if they should be playable, the way I'd like to see the Papal states is like this:

In the beginning of your turn, you start with let's say 15 points. Each point can be used in one of the following ways:
- Stabilizing: give one of the catholic states stability points, which will last 5 turns. 1 point could be 1 stability point. One civ can never have more than 20 Papal stability points.
- Provide a special unit: This costs 5 points and may only me done to three civs at the same time. This unit should be a defensive unit, or an attacking unit (crusades). If 2 catholic civs are at war with each other, only one of them may use the unit. The unit may be trained 5 turns, and 5 units are given for free. Free units will be gone after 5 turns.
- Claim a holy city: 15 points. This can only be done once in 15 turns. The city receives a gold bonus (10 gold) and some culture. The receiver has to be Friendly to the Pope.
- Spread hope: A starving, unhappy or sick city receives 2 happiness points, 2 health point or some food. This can only be done in 1 city per 5 the receiving empire has.
- Now, let's get to some real action: war! Whenever the Pope thinks that it's time, a crusade can be started. They can only be started between 1100 and 1350 AD (inaccurate I know, but this shoulnd't be skipped). It costs 15 points, and the next 7 turns you can't spend points, except to help the crusaades. "Official" crusades last 7 turns, but civs may decide to continue, if they do they receive 5 special Papal points. During the crusades, 5 knights are distributed among the crusaders. Crusades can only happen 3 times per game.
(- Release a vassal: Vassals are stimulated to break free. They receive special units, and 1 extra production per tile like in a GA. City defense is also 25% higher than usual.) Costs 15 points and cannot be done more than once per vassal-master deal (for example, if Hungary is Austria's master, the Pope can release Austria, but if they vassalize again he cannot).
- Assign a city: Can only be done once in 3 turns, receiver may refuse. Also, a single civ cannot get more than 2 cities every 15 turns. Receiving or losing cities is free of stability penalties. Costs are 10 points.
- View catholic cities: the Pope acts like a spy and can see all cities owned by one catholic civ for 3 turns. Costs are 3 points.
- Anything else? I'd rather leave out destructive opportunities, as they can ruin the game.
(- Save points for later (maximum of 50 points). If so, some values should be changed.)

Of course, you won't be doing this every turn if you don't want to. There will be a bonus, even a victory that's designed to make sure that the player will use it's abilities.

I know that it's a bit late to discuss everything again, and I like the previous ideas, and I know that lots of it have been decided already. I've tried to give some real action to the Papal States, that may be fun even if they are not playable. Also, it adds some replayability, as the pope can decide to help a really weak or very powerful civ, that can be turned into the world power that the world has never seen before (Lone Wolf, are you reading this?) So, what do you think of it?

 

[3Miro]

Although I don't know if they should be playable, the way I'd like to see the Papal states is like this:

In the beginning of your turn, you start with let's say 15 points. Each point can be used in one of the following ways:
- Stabilizing: give one of the catholic states stability points, which will last 5 turns. 1 point could be 1 stability point. One civ can never have more than 20 Papal stability points.
- Provide a special unit: This costs 5 points and may only me done to three civs at the same time. This unit should be a defensive unit, or an attacking unit (crusades). If 2 catholic civs are at war with each other, only one of them may use the unit. The unit may be trained 5 turns, and 5 units are given for free. Free units will be gone after 5 turns.
- Claim a holy city: 15 points. This can only be done once in 15 turns. The city receives a gold bonus (10 gold) and some culture. The receiver has to be Friendly to the Pope.
- Spread hope: A starving, unhappy or sick city receives 2 happiness points, 2 health point or some food. This can only be done in 1 city per 5 the receiving empire has.
- Now, let's get to some real action: war! Whenever the Pope thinks that it's time, a crusade can be started. They can only be started between 1100 and 1350 AD (inaccurate I know, but this shoulnd't be skipped). It costs 15 points, and the next 7 turns you can't spend points, except to help the crusaades. "Official" crusades last 7 turns, but civs may decide to continue, if they do they receive 5 special Papal points. During the crusades, 5 knights are distributed among the crusaders. Crusades can only happen 3 times per game.
(- Release a vassal: Vassals are stimulated to break free. They receive special units, and 1 extra production per tile like in a GA. City defense is also 25% higher than usual.) Costs 15 points and cannot be done more than once per vassal-master deal (for example, if Hungary is Austria's master, the Pope can release Austria, but if they vassalize again he cannot).
- Assign a city: Can only be done once in 3 turns, receiver may refuse. Also, a single civ cannot get more than 2 cities every 15 turns. Receiving or losing cities is free of stability penalties. Costs are 10 points.
- View catholic cities: the Pope acts like a spy and can see all cities owned by one catholic civ for 3 turns. Costs are 3 points.
- Anything else? I'd rather leave out destructive opportunities, as they can ruin the game.
(- Save points for later (maximum of 50 points). If so, some values should be changed.)

Of course, you won't be doing this every turn if you don't want to. There will be a bonus, even a victory that's designed to make sure that the player will use it's abilities.

I know that it's a bit late to discuss everything again, and I like the previous ideas, and I know that lots of it have been decided already. I've tried to give some real action to the Papal States, that may be fun even if they are not playable. Also, it adds some replayability, as the pope can decide to help a really weak or very powerful civ, that can be turned into the world power that the world has never seen before (Lone Wolf, are you reading this?) So, what do you think of it?

That would overpower the catholic nations too much. Free units and stability that others cannot get in any way - I don't think it would work.

My idea would be to give a defensive crusade option for the Catholics and it would depend on the relations with the Pope. It would also tie with the underpowered Great Priests.

That is in the future for now, I am looking at the Offensive Crusades now.

 

[3Miro]

To do for Rome:
- No one can conquer Rome (currently it is possible for the Barbs to conquer Rome)
- Rome cannot become anyone's vassal.

For crusaders:
- Initially I would make it happen at predefined years, but I think I eventually it would make sense to make it a World Wonder (i.e. Crusade I, Crusade II, Crusade III, Crusade IV). Those would be buildable only in Rome and if Jerusalem is controlled by the Muslims. (that would give Rome something to build, they really have nothing to do right now). Crusades wold be enabled by some tech (Divine Right?) so that they start around 1000-1100AD.
- Once a Crusade is initialized, the leader for the crusade would be selected by a congress type of an event (only among the Catholics). The two candidates would be the largest Catholic nation (considering spread of Catholicism and religious buildings) and the nation most favored by the Pope (again Priests would have influence here).
- Then some units (under the control of the Crusader Leader), would spawn near Jerusalem (giving the Arabs 2-3 turns to prepare, war with the Arabs would also be initiated).
- Conquering Jerusalem would give stability bonus, happiness bonus, start Golden Age and maybe something else. (The problem is why would any player declare war on the powerful Arabs and seek to control a city on the other side of the map. It would be meaningless unless there is a powerful bonus for capturing it).
- Crusaders would be disabled with some tech (Printing Press?).
- After the first Crusade (starting with the second), the richest Catholic nation (expect Venice and Genoa) would get the choice to spend a lot of money and take control of the Crusade. Then that leader would have the opportunity to send the Crusade against any non-Catholic capital (fourth Crusade dynamics, sack Constantinople).

It is a lot of work and while I have a clue on how to do it, I am not sure when I will get the chance.

 

[Just666]

It is clear that the Papal states need more influence then they have in the current version, but I think it should focus on the anhialation of the infidels then on spreading their faith.

The catholic church united the devoted Christian kings to go on a crusade or to battle heresy (excumunication/inquisitions). In my point of view the Papal states tried to banish the hereticts more then they tried to spread the faith. I would suggest to make their unique unit a inquistor and make the Papal statesAI use them and allow friendly factions to use them.

Also I read that the pope made every country to join a meating between all cotholics pay a sertain ammount of money to "donate to the cause". In-game this would mean that if you want to vote in a AP-voting, u have to pay a ammount of money depending on ur standing with the papal states (better relation less money), if you do not pay, your standing gets worse and u could get excommunicated. Meaning ur population get mad, other catholics get mad, etcetra...

(sorry for the bad english, it's not my native language)

 

[3Miro]

I don't know if the AP is in the current list of World Wonders, but the way the AP works in Civilization is rather broken and generally I and many people donot like it.

First I am workingon implementing the Crusades. There will be voting, money, and papal favor involved. Then I intend to code the AI to that it in general the Pope would be building Missionaries and Inquisitors (mostly inquisitors) and gifting them to the Catholic players. Then the AI would use those to perform prosecutions. There should be other mechanics such as Excomunicatiion and Holy Roman Emperor and such, but those would wait for now.

 

[merijn_v1]

I don't know if the AP is in the current list of World Wonders, but the way the AP works in Civilization is rather broken and generally I and many people donot like it.

No it isn't. It's they holy shrine of the Catholics and it's called: St. Peter's Basilica.

 

[3Miro]

Current Crusades mechanics:

- there are 5 Crusades
- Crusades are enabled approximately around the years of the real Crusades (used Wikipedia)
- once enabled, a Crusade is called upon if there is at least one Catholic Player other than the Pope and Jerusalem belongs to a non-Catholic non-Orthodox player (Catholics and Orthodoxes did not like each other, but did not hate each other that much)
- once called upon, if the human is Catholic, he gets an opportunity to join the Crusade or not (all Catholic AIs always join)
- if the human player is the only non-Papal Catholic player and denies to join the crusade, the Crusade is canceled for good
- players that join the Crusade cannot change state religion while the Crusade lasts
- if some non-Papal players have joined the Crusade, a leader for Crusade is chosen
- there are at most two candidates for Crusade Leaders, the player with highest diplomacy rating towards the Pope and the player with strongest Catholic power
- Catholic power depends on the cities with Catholicism, their population AND the amount of Catholic buildings in them
- if there is only one candidate, he automatically becomes the Leader
- if there are two candidates, then all participants in the crusade vote
- the votes for each player depend on the Catholic power of the player
- the Pope has double the power
- the AI always votes for the player with whom it has the higher diplomacy rating
- a tie in the votes is broken in favour of the candidate favoured by the Pope
- once the leader is chosen, the Crusade starts
- the Crusade leader automatically declares war on the Crusade target civ and three turns later Crusader units appear next to the target city
- the amount of the Crusader units depends on the total Catholic power of all players that have joined the Crusade
- on the next turn the Crusade is considered "complete", the war still goes on, but a new Crusade can begin and Crusade nations can change religion

- there is a twist to all of the above
- after the first Crusade, there is an extra step after selecting the Crusade Leader
- we look for the Catholic nation that is richer than any other nation and has more money than the Pope (the second condition is hard since the Pope has the Catholic Holy Shrine and thus +20gpt)
- if a player satisfies the above criteria, then that player is given an opportunity to spend a large amount of money, but take over the Crusade (for historical reference read on the Fourth Crusade)
- if a player uses financial influence to take over the Crusade, then the player becomes the Crusade leader and can choose a new target for the Crusade
- the new target could be any non-Catholic capital or Jerusalem
- the Human player gets to chose from the list of all possibilities
- Venetian and Genoan AI will take over and attack Constantinople as long as Byzantium is still alive
- Spanish AI will deviate the crusade towards Cordoba
- upon deviation the power of the Crusade is halved (i.e. fewer units would spawn)


TODO:
- balance the number of units spawning versus the Catholic power
- rebalance the computation of Catholic power so that Catholic buildings would have even bigger influence
- penalize the Human player for not joining the crusade
- if Jerusalem is captured by the Crusades, give the player some bonus (i.e. a Golden Age and some extra stability)

 

[Just666]

I think the crusades will really give the game a new edge, but I do have some things I want to notice:

- there were also some minor crusades against the excumunicated catholic factions, if posible it would be a nice addision to be able to call a crusade on a faction with the lowest standing with the Pope.

- some of the crusades failed becouse the crusaders never arrived at the Holy land. if the crusaders arrive in a boat near the crusading-leader his land, they could have some lossing on their way to Jerusalem. also civ's like genoa or Venice could have a bonus of stronger boats.

 

[3Miro]

I intend to put in Defensive crusades (eventually). The minor Crusades could be an event or something.

In the current version, all Crusades are land bound (i.e. there are no boats).

 

[BurnEmDown]

Finally crusades If everything works good then all this mod needs is completing UHVs, LH and personalities, and some minor balancing tweaks and it's ready for beta!