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RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    So far all the other civs I've only needed to load once or twice, and never just to get an extra flipped unit.
     
  2. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    You can read the release notes, but from one point one, RFCEurope works only with 3.19
     
  3. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Just a wild idea that I have. As of right now, France and Burgundy are way too strong for Germany to survive (if played correctly). How about letting the Franks actually spawn north and east of the Rhine, but have their settlers build towards the south and west (including Lyon and Geneva). Obviously there needs to be more barbs and penalties to make sure France isn't just becoming a powerhouse all by itself. Then let Germany spawn in 840 (the split of the Frankish empire) which will get some cities (Austrasia and Swabia) and finally let Burgundy spawn in 933 (obviously with more advanced techs and buildings and with Marseilles flipping to them).

    The advantages of this plan are:
    1. More historically correct
    2. More variety to the cities that are actually built by the AI
    3. France and Burgundy don't have to automatically DOW on each other to get an advantage (which is the case right now)
    4. It would actually make Germany more viable in the hands of the AI
    5. Burgundy would actually have to fight on both fronts to be able to win their UHV.
     
  4. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    That's an interesting idea, AP.

    But it seems to have too many cities flipping, which makes it difficult to balance stability. And early wars are a problem, high risk of one of the civs collapsing so soon.

    My plan:

    1. Have France spawn a bit later (700), flip Tours, at least an extra settler and less penalties. Burgundy's area is in the settler map but with lower priority. This tries to solve the problem of massive french culture near Paris (most notably a problem for England and anyone who settles the Netherlands). Not very historical, but neither is Arabia's spawn and early situation.

    2. Burgundy spawns at 800 or so. Flips Lyon (new prebuilt indy city), not Marseilles.

    3. Spawn Germany at the date it does now but flip Lubeck. Some likely probability for Burgundy to have built Strasbourg or Cologne (in Germany's spawn area).

    4. Independent city in the Netherlands around the time Germany spawns (maybe Utrecht or Amberes/Anvers/Brugges), moreless well defended for the time. Put it in everyone who's near's warmap (and the spanish one). This way the resource-packed region should not just go to the one who settles it first.

    Also, make France less likely to build Boulougne, as it forbids Calais, and the Low countries completely out of the settler map (no more french built Anvers, the region wasn't of real interest to France until Louis XIV's military expeditions).
     
  5. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    The problem with flipping prebuilt NEW cities is that there won't be any infrastructure or population in those cities, unless you specify the population to be higher and have some buildings to start, so that you can't just squash those civs simply because your production outmatches them.

    An empty central Europe till 700 feels wrong though. The logical dates should be around 500 when Clovis (466-511) united the Frankish tribes, or 600 (when Dagobert briefly reunited the kingdoms), or 751 (Pepin). I would favor keeping the 500 start simply because there should be some early civ in central Europe in opposition to the busy east (Bulgaria, Arabia, Byzantium).
     
  6. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    What about spawning Germany before France and Burgundy then, with Charlemagne as leader? It would build some cities to flip.
     
  7. AnotherPacifist

    AnotherPacifist Deity

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    Maybe we should just have all 3 civs spawn around 750 and be done with it. Some people in France would not be happy if Charlemagne was German and vice versa (thank God there are no modern Burgundians).
     
  8. Myri

    Myri Warlord

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    With mercs and 3 troops per city not crusading you won't ever loose a troop to crusades. Just make your offensive troops mercs and order them back. Genoa: Thought i don't need my army any longer and made them mercs, than got a vassal and war, ordered them back and got: Genoan Swordsman (Swordsman), mercs.

    bye Myri
     
  9. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    Maybe you're right. I just don't like France spawning so early and Germany being so hopeless.

    Still support the indy city in the Low countries.
     
  10. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    I preferred when crusades didn't take any troops away and just created new ones. Now it's only a matter of the player "cheating" its way as Myri suggests, and the AI is seriously crippled in comparison.

    Plagues already kill enough units to make the game interesting.

    Something as taking part of your gold (I now, can also be cheated) or imposing a global christian peace for some turns would be more productive.
     
  11. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    Have put a forest between Damascus and Antioch as suggested. Now the former is the Arab capital, as it should.

    Problem is, Arabs keep converting to Orthodoxy even now. :(

    Sorry for the third post in a row.
     
  12. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I think that, at least historically, France should get stronger while Burgundy declines.
    Right now the opposite happens and that is nonsense IMO.

    Personally, I don't think it's ever in the player's interest to join a crusade. I always refuse.
    That way it costs me nothing and I still get gold and favours from the Pope. What's the point?

    BTW. There's no problem with Arabia. One less settler and a pre-built Dimasq at the start would guarantee the capitol and Islam wouldn't it?
     
  13. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    The penalty for refusing a crusade should be higher then, losing more faith points.

    I had thought too of an "anti-heretic" crusade from the catholic players against the one with less FP/worst diplomatic relation with the Pope.

    Are defensive crusades still active after Protestantism spreads? They could be until anyone researches Nationalism, for example.
     
  14. Michael Vick

    Michael Vick #1

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    I think 3miro was already working on something like that, An anti-protestant crusade. Probably spawning in bavaria or somewhere in the historical HRE and being directed towards Germany more often than not. We could make these historical, with the head catholic leading a purge of Protestants to simulate some real events, like the 30 years war, the (attempted) Spanish invasion of England(defeat of the armada).

    Oh, and by the way... CUT BURGUNDY... :)
    there are no "modern Burgundians" because they're essentially French, the duchy just slowly declined as it became part of France. I wish there was a French civ player from Marseilles or something who could lecture us all on this...
     
  15. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    pre-build Damascus would not help the Arabian problem since cities flip on turn 2 after the spawn.

    Defensive Crusades never get "obsolete."

    People complained about not sending troops to the Crusades. If everyone is against it, then I will put the Crusade back as it was before.

    I propose we implement another religion "Christian Heresy" and then somehow kill it after the Reformation.
     
  16. Nymbo

    Nymbo Chieftain

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    Hey all! I just finished my first game of RFCE, as Venice. First thing, great job on this mod, I can't wait for more versions of it. There were just a couple things I noticed that were screwy or bothered me:

    • I changed a line in the interface python file to make the score list show long civ names, but this didn't happen in RFCE. Did I do something wrong?
    • Saladin simultaneously had a "Brothers of the Faith" bonus and a "Heathen Religion" penalty towards me.
    • The documentation did not explain things very well. I couldn't find a list of which resources counted as "luxury" for my UHV, I couldn't tell how far Dalmatia extended (is there and RFCE atlas yet?). Also, a more in depth explanation of how stability works would me much appreciated. I had gould relations with everybody, but had a permanent -19 in "Foreign".
    • Why does Venice have a one star rating for trade? This doesn't seem to fit the merchant republic very well.

    Thanks a lot! Good work, this is everything I could want in a mod! :goodjob:
     
  17. Myri

    Myri Warlord

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    I think sending troops to crusades is a very nice feature, but it needs a lot of balancing and fixing exploits, your choice if you want to do that.

    If someone really wants to say "I will never play a role ..." only changing state religion should be an option, else your people will play that role. Declining crusade should just mean you can't be elected to lead and your troops have a lower chance to leave. Hiding large armies from crusades shouldn't be possible, so the merc bug above has to be fixed, i just don't know how.

    bye Myri
     
  18. Myri

    Myri Warlord

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    - known bug
    - there is some documentation, "references" to show what Dalmatia means, a textfile how stability works
    - most countries aren't rated yet

    bye Myri
     
  19. JediClemente

    JediClemente Prince

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    But in previous versions Arabs were islamic. So what changed now?

    Maybe you could send troops only if you're elected, in addition to those automatically generated (that number should decrease over time, the first crusades are supposed to be successful, the later ones not so much).

    Also, there should be some quantifiable bonus for supporting the two-three first crusades even if you don't get elected. Like extra beakers for your research at the time (the first crusades brought unknown science in Western Europe from the Middle East) and +2 :) for 20 turns, something like that.

    I like very much that "Christian Heresy" religion. Each civ should have a probability to convert, and then have a crusade against.
     
  20. Myri

    Myri Warlord

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    Arabs weren't always islam, sometimes they were orthodox. Starting at war with Arabia they get earlier more orthodox cities, so it's more likely they are orthodox.

    Isn't it possible to preset religions? Like the preset civics for Venezia. Sometimes other civs have a wrong religion, too. Preset religions should prevent that to some extent?

    bye Myri
     

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