RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[3Miro]

None of the leaders in Medieval Europe that tried to create a huge empire managed to make it last. 30 Cities is the territory of 3 large nations, it is unrealistic to have an empire this big, only the Ottomans managed that and we have not balanced them yet.

Your arguments are not RFCE specific, perhaps you don't believe in stability at all. Allowing empires of the size of 30 cities is pretty much removing the stability parameter from the game. There is an RFC modmod that does that and eventually we may make one for RFCE, but we are not removing stability altogether.

If you want, you can remove the block from the code, noone will stop you.

Research penalty simply exists to make sure that nations like the Netherlands can keep up with France and England. It works in conjunction with the individual civ modifiers.

 

[Michael Vick]

Speaking of domination of Europe, the mod ends a bit too late for me to reenact Napoleonic France... Could we extend the mod maybe to 1820 and add 1 or 2 more military techs?

 

[AbsintheRed]

None of the leaders in Medieval Europe that tried to create a huge empire managed to make it last. 30 Cities is the territory of 3 large nations, it is unrealistic to have an empire this big, only the Ottomans managed that and we have not balanced them yet.

Your arguments are not RFCE specific, perhaps you don't believe in stability at all. Allowing empires of the size of 30 cities is pretty much removing the stability parameter from the game. There is an RFC modmod that does that and eventually we may make one for RFCE, but we are not removing stability altogether.

If you want, you can remove the block from the code, noone will stop you.

Research penalty simply exists to make sure that nations like the Netherlands can keep up with France and England. It works in conjunction with the individual civ modifiers.

The leaders may not managed to make it, but they tried, and that was my point. And I was not just talking of one emperor's lifetime, instead centuries of a well ruled civilization. Just think of Rome. A perfectly governed empire could and should be capable of dominating Europe.

I love stability in RFC and RFCE, never wanted to change any of its main concepts...
And I still see your point, but u misunderstood what i suggested then. U think noone will have 30 cities. Till than the stability penalty should stay the way it is.
if NumCities<=30: -(NumCities - 8)^2 / 9
if NumCities>30: -(30 - 8)^2 / 9 - (NumCities - 30)*4
Of course these are just example numbers, can be other than 30 and 4.
So it won't mess up with your concept at all, basicly it would be the same for everyone who plays for the UHVs.
It is just for those who really wants to try to maintain a huge empire. They may fail too, but u don't have to take away the chance for that. It is still more than hard enough with the tech penalty and my version of stability.

Finally, I do not want to remove the block from the code. I made my suggestion to help. Not myself, you, the other modders, and of course all the fans. Because I honestly thought your mod would be better with these changes, for a more complete picture...

 

[Nymbo]

I just finished a disastrous game as the Austrians. Early on, the bulgarians collapsed, leading to stabilty issues in Hungary, who ended up shedding a border city or 2. When I invaded Hungary, collapsing them, it created a ripple effect which caused Kiev to collapse. Later, Bulgaria respawned, but didn't take back many cities, and then got DOW'd on by Burgandy plus allies and vassals. At this point I invaded Poland, and they collapsed too... This obviously created a huge power vacuum, which I expected the Muscovites to fill, however, they didn't. I had trouble managing my own stability, and I collapsed. The bizarre thing is, the ex Hungarian territory, and all of my territory, instead of forming separate city states formed a massive independant empire This made it impossible for me to try to take back a city without huge retaliation, leading to me losing. Is this a fluke, or is there a problem with the independent mechanics?
In happier news, spain managed an almost complete Reconquista!

Spoiler :

Also, Germany got killed shortly after their spawn, leaving a big void. I think they only got Franfkurt and Ausburg, and they both got captured by independants.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

It's not that hard to do domination. You just have to have vassals and be able to liberate cities to them when you have more than 25-30 cities (which will buff your stability). kbk has done it several times already.
The only gripe I have is that Africa is mostly uninhabitable but has a lot of land.

 

[Fanatik]

Yes I don't think austria is very doable right now. Taking Hungary early wil only result in a respawn (twice in two tries), prague is a very poor location, and you begin surrounded by other civs. I would cut out hungarian respawning to make this one more doable so you can expand immediately, Make prag a better location, a perhaps add a food resource by the copper and iron to make for a third powerful city nearby wien.

My current strategy is to take southern germany, which is outside of their respawn area, raze frankfurt, settle south of river and then proceed southeast later. Waiting for next version to try this out again.

 

[Myri]

I honestly thought your mod would be better with these changes, for a more complete picture...

I honestly think it would completely ruin the game

bye Myri

 

[Myri]

Yes I don't think austria is very doable right now.

Was my first game in Alpha 6 and very easy, but later civs are 95 % luck (for those who know how to play).

bye Myri

 

[JediClemente]

In RFCE penalties for large empires in terms of both stability and science have been nerfed compared to RFC.

Well, if you have Spain for example, having the normal area alone (not Portugal) + Tangiers means 9-10 cities usually. Now add to that Napoli, one in Sicily and Milano. Algiers.

And I'm not counting any city in the Low Countries or the East of France. Now don't tell me that didn't last 200 years.

The problem isn't stability, because you have other ways to control it. It's the scientific penalty. Kicks in too early. If you didn't have Cluny and mass-produced universities everywhere you're certainly doomed.

 

[Myri]

It's the scientific penalty. Kicks in too early. If you didn't have Cluny and mass-produced universities everywhere you're certainly doomed.

So you can't just conquer whatever you see but have to build your possessions first, that's the way i want to play it. Conquering the world is a game i won't play as long the ai does not get 100 times better in defending and counterattacking.

bye Myri

 

[JediClemente]

I don't want to conquer the world, just think you usually control more cities in RFCE than in RFC.

 

[jessiecat]

I don't want to conquer the world, just think you usually control more cities in RFCE than in RFC.

If you're just going for the UHVs there's really no civ other than Arabia or Moscow that you need more than 15 cities. Usually 10 at most. I did have 32 cities once as the Arabs but my tech research practically stopped and my stability was about -39 before I started collapsing.

 

[Fanatik]

Was my first game in Alpha 6 and very easy, but later civs are 95 % luck (for those who know how to play).

bye Myri

Wouldnt have had as much difficulty if hungary hadnt respawned (though getting vassals is difficult on emperor). Perhaps I should've waited until later before taking hungary, so as to avoid them respawning (in code for uhv not to respawn after a certain year?) As France I remember burgundy staying dead only if I conquered later in the game.

 

[jessiecat]

Wouldnt have had as much difficulty if hungary hadnt respawned (though getting vassals is difficult on emperor). Perhaps I should've waited until later before taking hungary, so as to avoid them respawning (in code for uhv not to respawn after a certain year?) As France I remember burgundy staying dead only if I conquered later in the game.

I just completed Austria on Monarch which is fairly easy. Hungary will always respawn but I waited with a large stack until the 1560s then collapsed them and Bulgaria too. Getting 2 defense agreements is simple but getting the 3 vassals is a lot harder. I did it but not without being at war with 6 other civs at the end.

 

[Myri]

Genoa tech is way to fast for the human. At emporer was tech leader in 1200. Unfortunaly the ai won't have 6 cities in 1100, so no idea what to do.

bye Myri

 

[rob-art1985]

greets

The citizen automation bugs in all versions I can remember.
Example: I have a village and a cottage (edited, sorry) on a river tile (so 4 and 2 ) , and there are some coast fields near the harbored city (2). The citizen automation always favours the ocean tile more than the cottage, and the cottage more than the village, which makes absolutely no sense

 

[Opera]

I just won a historical victory with Spain on Viceroy

It was a very good game, albeit maybe a bit easy (I would have to try on Monarch). Long story short, I pushed Cordoba to collapse by razing their capital; I took all the cities in the Iberian peninsula, managed to contain the Portuguese and to vassalize them. I vassalized Genoa and Austria too. I worked hard to unit the peninsula and to found some cities away (I had Casablanca and Tangiers, Murcia, Algers, and one city in Sicilia). After some time, both the Burgundians and the French collapsed, so I went out of my peninsula and took Burdeos, razed Nantes. The English DoW on me, so I took Caen. Calais was finally captured by the Independant and thus England was out of the continent. I founded Vitoria in Britain. Then I just had to wait until I finished all my colonial projects

Anyway, I like the engine a lot. Especially the changes to the unitcombats that I think I will import into my own mod, even it's an FFH one and not really the same thing (not at all in fact ).

Very good mod

 

[kbk]

It's not that hard to do domination. You just have to have vassals and be able to liberate cities to them when you have more than 25-30 cities (which will buff your stability). kbk has done it several times already.
The only gripe I have is that Africa is mostly uninhabitable but has a lot of land.

But, there's always room to build cities on the N. African coast and pump culture into them for a lot of open spaces. Still, there is a lot of land in Africa that is a "tax" on inhabitable land.


My domination wins were largely due to really happy, healthy, cities without religious conflicts. You can get one around 1600, typically with Hussars or Cuiriussiers. You'll want the palace de pena(sp?), for no anarchy when you switch between occupation and imperialism. Also, vassalizing Moscow is very helpful.

On a philosophical note:
Stability is what makes large empires interesting. It takes skill and know-how to manage your economy at that level. Some civilizations are capable of doing this, and others can't. I've yet to punish myself with trying a domination with say Portugal.

I actually think where the stability is right now is pretty close to accurate. I can build a huge empire on some civs, but they need to grow slowly, and require vassals. You have to make sure you have happy people, well developed economic buildings (markets, banks, etc) and no religious strife. Still, I don't think I came close to 50 cities. I probably had more than 30, though.

And on another note, compared to regular civ, the domination requirements are significantly lower. Typically you only need about 25% in RFC or RFCE (more if you eliminate a lot of rivals). In classic civ, you will always need over 50%.

 

[st.lucifer]

Which civs need the most playtesting? Anything in particular need work?

 

[micbic]

Just fiddle around