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RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    A couple ot things maybe. Spain vs Codoba now seems too heavily weighted in favour of Spain. Try them and see what you think.
    Also Burgundy seems overpowered in relation to France and is often the tech leader in the late game. Not what was intended I think.:)
     
  2. kbk

    kbk Chieftain

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    I'm working on a Cordoban game I plan to turn into a domination on monarch. I took Spain out a few turns after spawn with 2 berber cavalry thanks to faulty AI. But I think in normal situations (AI vs. AI) Spain tends to win, which is historically accurate.

    I also think Burgandy is too strong compared with France. While I do like seeing a divided france for a number of years, by 1500 one side should have France. I think Burgandy's strength is also causing a weaker Germany.
     
  3. rob-art1985

    rob-art1985 Chieftain

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    I agree with the others about Burgundy, they receive too much gold from the pope in the early game, so they can research with 100% all the time.
    Germany could be stronger, if somebody could say them to settle more intelligent. In my last game they had Aachen, Trier, Frankfurt, Coburg, Leipzig, Berlin, Hannover, Hamburg, Lübeck, Rostock, Kolberg and Augsburg of course. The netherlands were in Burgundian hands (Amsterdam and Antwerpen).
    So they had 12 cities, what increases their techcosts. In fact, they cannot work on more fields with these cities, because the're to close together. :sad:
     
  4. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    If they had 12 cities it won't increase the techcosts. In RFCE you may have 14 cities without penalty.
     
  5. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    The problem with playing as Cordoba is your low tech rate and instability when Spain spawns and declares war on you. If you don't build science buildings, concentrate on your military and build a stack of Berber cav and catapults before they spawn, of course you can eliminate them in a few turns. But only at the expense of the UHVs as even if you still get Cordoba to 11 or 12 by 1000AD, your tech rate is so poor that you've got no chance to tech thru to Philosophy and Patronage and build the all 3 wonders by 1300AD. Either you try to wipe out Spain early or ignore them and try to tech fast towards the UHV goals before you collapse due to instability. I don't think it's possible to do both anymore. Cordoba's massive early instability has got to be nerfed IMO.
     
  6. kbk

    kbk Chieftain

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    Cordoba's last UHV seems to not work. Maybe I founded Arguin too far west, but the descriptor just says "Northwest Africa," and that looks pretty northwest to me.
     

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  7. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    The answer is yes, Arguin is out of the UHV area. It indeed should be in though.
     
  8. kbk

    kbk Chieftain

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    Yeah, the area is probably pretty confined then, and my reference folder doesn't have an updated map area. I think the UHV map was drawn up before Arguin became such an attractive place to build a city a few updates ago.
     
  9. matt94

    matt94 Chieftain

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    Hi I really like this mod you are making but something didn't really make sense to me... I might be wrong but I don't think it makes sense that it takes so long to get the tech required to have a monarchy. They didn't have elections in the dark ages did they?
    Awesome mod though keep up the good work!:)
     
  10. fdgsgds

    fdgsgds Mustard Enthusiast

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    Last three games, Arabia turned out converting to Orthodoxy :run:
    Every Arabian city was Orthodox!!! No Islam in sight!

    Burgundy is wicked powerful all the time and even vassalized France!

    Germany is too weak and Burgundy itself can destroy Germany totally. Germany usually leaves its capital unprotected the first turn and the horse archers kill it. The Ottomans have the same problem 2/3 times and the other 1/3 time it was vassalized by Arabia because Arabia is hugely powerful.

    I don't know how Arabia seems to manage their huge empire of worthless north African cities (where there are only plains and maybe some salt or horses) and have their Hanseatic League corporation in all of their core cities.

    I've gotta say I like playing as Kievan Rus and Moscow and Arabia; they are so rich in resources and land.

    Last game as Arabia i was Very Solid (~55) the entire time after I had my empire going and my Hanseatic League (awesome corp, gave about 8 food to each city), I had 4 vassals (Venezia, Bulgaria, Portugal, and Cordoba), and could run my science slider at 100% basically from all my wonders and Hagia Sophia + Masjid al-Haram. I won that game with UHV obviously.

    Austria as an AI is so stupid; they founded 2 cities within minimum distance from Vienna, and they are vassalized 100% of the time. They need a bigger starting army (with knights perhaps) and a bigger flip area or something. They always suck and are the weakest civ in the game every time.

    Edit: Also, I find it hard to vassalize people; they don't give up easily, so when I take their capital, they will capitulate. And what happens when you take a capital and a few cities of any civ? They collapse.

    Just my (not so few) points on the game after the newest release. I like the new LHs and music. I really think it's improving a lot! :)

    ~fdg
     
  11. Verily

    Verily Chieftain

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    They did, but, except in "Germany" in the 1000-1100s, monarchies across Europe were very weak, decentralized and beholden to the nobility until the early years of the Renaissance (coinciding, not without reason, with the devastation of the countryside by the Black Plague and increased prominence of cities, which tended to side with monarchs against lesser nobility).
     
  12. matt94

    matt94 Chieftain

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    oh ok thanks
     
  13. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    One thing that we might consider re-instituting from standard RFC:

    After a civ re-spawns, it's very easy to re-conquer it. Playing as Burgundy, I squashed an early French re-spawn and then an early German re-spawn with a loss of perhaps 2 units total. Both re-spawns were unexpected and I wasn't prepared for them - I had 25+ stability both times.


    As much as I always hated losing units to civil wars in RFC, it did seriously hamper reconquest of cities lost to spawning flips. Without a free unit bonus (both civs hired a bunch of mercenaries, but that's not quite the same) and defections, it's not difficult to put down a re-spawning civ.
     
  14. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I tend to agree. Alhough early respawning of France or Germany should be encouraged it should not happen so easily for Burgundy, esp. later in the game. You've obviously noted how overpowered Burgundy is in the early game with their tech rate and gifts from the Pope. In one recent game I build 4 wonders in Dijon and 2 in Lyon before Germany spawned. We've been discussing giving them a later spawn date (880?) and not allowing them to respawn in the later game. This would be historically accurate and prevent them being a late game superpower, as they almost always are.
     
  15. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Basically, the Burgundy state was an odd case, since it existed at three diverse periods (500-650, 900-1100 and 1300-1500). What is needed IMO is a bit of tweaking (settle cities closer, a new settler map perhaps and increase in the military cost). When done I will post a 1100 screenie and wait your comments :)
     
  16. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Okay lads, here are the screenies and tell me if you find any difference ;)
    If attempts continue to fail, we should look to drop Burgundy and find another playable civ :p
     

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  17. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    We definitely need Burgundy in as a realistic counterweight to France, but perhaps a later start is the key. I had objected to a more historical start previously, thinking that a late spawn might destroy French stability, but in the games I've played recently France has stayed north and west (making the English spawn more of a problem). It's possible that they'd expand to the southeast if Burgundy started later, but it's hard to say.

    One other possible solution to this would be to remove independent Tours - possibly replaced by independent Bordeaux. This sets up something of a natural barrier between the Gallic and Iberian civs, and gives France some room to expand within its historical area.

    The area around Dijon could also be nerfed a little, but I honestly don't think it's an unreasonable city site - there are arguably 10-15 better ones on the board. I am starting to look a little more closely at resource placement/availability in eastern Europe, as the game I'm playing as Poland promises to be a quiet affair...
     
  18. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I also think an indy Bordeaux would be better than an indy Tours. It would make the player's choice of city locations much more flexible. Combining that with a later Burgundy spawn might just achieve a proper balance.
    I'd go with that.
     
  19. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    Good point about Bordeaux (Burdigala). Tours was no tragically important city at the time, while Burdigala was an important trading center-port. And we might also see the likes of Vichy, Orleans and Limoges, while Bordeaux is anyway AI-founded.
    EDIT: Another idea I just came up with is not replacing Bordeaux with Tours, but just adding Tours to the French spawn zone. Usually, Burgundy becomes stronger than France when it beats it to Tours. And we want Burgundy weaker to France (weaker, not a boxing bag), eh?
     
  20. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    This may have been proposed already, but it seems like an omission:

    We have promotions to counter archery units, heavy infantry, and heavy cavalry, but no promotion vs. polearms. Some heavy infantry have built-in advantages vs. polearms, but it's not possible to train units that lack that initial thrust. For a name, I'd suggest something like 'armored', as shock is already taken.
     

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