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RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    No problem with that. Here is the file as it currently is :)
    EDIT: Apparently during editing I bugged the file, and unfortunately I didnt backup it :(. I will post the correct file soon, after editing the one in Alpha 6
    EDIT 2: The corrected file. Just to know, Valencia citizens can both eat paella and drink sangria :D
     

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  2. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I just tried a game as Genoa myself and something similiar happened. I got 3/3 and it did announce a historical victory but the screen froze and wouldn't go on to the next turn. Here is a screenshot and the saved game.
     
  3. ZachScape

    ZachScape Chieftain

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    This may belong in the files thread, but I think that thread is for files only.
    Anyway, I was wondering why you posted RFCE in the Modpacks section, but not the announcement thread section? Ginger Ale said that if it was posted there, it would make it to the Mid-August Update for Civ4 Files thread.
     
  4. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I think we were going to release the Beta 1.0 first. Right now we're in the Alpha testing stage.
     
  5. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    After several trips through the mod as different civs, I've made the following observations:


    I like what we've done. It's fun to play, and retains most of the features that we all loved about RFC. There's no single approach to victory, and the different civs do represent different challenges. All good things.

    However, the mod as a whole is too easy. I haven't tried anything out on Emperor level, but on Monarch, I feel like I could win any civ's historical victory without all that much micromanagement or the careful plotting (and luck) required to win some of the standard RFC victories. Some of the things that I like best about the mod are the downfall - there are too many resources to go around; too many good/great city sites, and stability really isn't an issue once you get about 50 turns into your game.

    To illustrate this (sadly, I threw away all of the saves before thinking to post one here), I played through a game as Arabia over the past few days, and ended up tripling everyone else's score by 1540. I may have missed one or two wonders, and didn't have a spare GM to found the Bank of St. George, but I got everything I wanted, built all improvements in all but my most recent cities, and was capable of cranking out the most massive colonial projects in 5-8 turns in my most powerful production city (Turfus). When the game ended, I controlled all traditional Arabian territory plus Anatolia, Thrace, Greece, Sicily, Sardinia, Portugal, and the Maghreb up to Tangier (I thought that it would be bad manners to conquer Cordoba). For the majority of the game, I had France, Burgundy, and Germany as vassals, and added Bulgaria after taking Constantinople and collapsing the Romans. (Topkapi Palace + those first 3 civs as vassals = one hell of a powerful army). I had settled 4 great generals in Ephesus, which was capable of cranking out one knight or privateer a turn, and 5 or 6 prophets and engineers in Alexandria, which had the leaning tower, st. basil's, national university, escorial palace, belem tower, and every other wonder that increased trade or profits thereof. It would have been a very simple task to win a domination victory, and I didn't do it mostly because I wanted to see if the historical victory would fire.

    There were three things that made this empire possible, all of which might be worth tweaking. First, the cities of the Levant and Anatolia are limited mostly by food - it's hard to get most of them over 10 (there are exceptions - Jerusalem, Tyre, and Alexandria are all pretty good). Spreading the Hanseatic League to most of my cities eliminated this problem, adding as much as 12 food/city in the late game. That's a lot of extra hill mines or windmills, or a lot of specialists. I'd suggest tweaking the League to give .25 food/resource consumed - there's a lot of fish and salt out there. I realize that Arabia generally won't be the one founding the Hanseatic League, but that's the key to making the Maghreb and Anatolia powerful.

    The second thing I'd advise tweaking would be to increase the stability penalty for running Merchant Republic with a large empire. I was able to run MR for most of the game (and thanks to La Mezquita, maintain a profit even at 100% research), without ever hitting anything close to a stability penalty. The only point in the game where I had any sort of trouble with stability was the first 20 turns or so, when I was razing Roman cities (7 or 8 of them) to settle Anatolia more optimally, and even then, I never came close to collapse.

    The final thing (for Arabia and Cordoba, at least) would be to make some of the later techs require chivalry as a prerequisite. Obsoleting the House of Wisdom so early to change the tech balance is a really good solution, and I applaud the person who came up with the idea. However, I was able to work around it for 40-50 turns, racing ahead in techs that didn't require chivalry, and researching it only when I thought I might miss out on the wonders it allowed.

    I realize that the Arabian experience is a very different one from most of the other civs in the game - but many of these strategies are useful for other civs as well. I think we should consider these changes as minor balances, and I'm sure that when we tweak stability it'll become a lot harder to hold as much productive territory as I did.

    Still, this is a great start. I'm excited to keep playing, and hope that we're able to reach a working balance.
     
  6. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    How is the WB going, BTW?
    Re: A problem with the Arabs is that their settler map covers too much area. Perhaps the stability as a whole needs tweaking for having over x cities (10? 12?)
     
  7. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    I wanted to try a game as most of the civs (particularly Poland, Austria, Hungary, and the Russian civs) before doing much modification to the map - I thought I'd take another week or so to start on it, if that's all right. The final product is likely to be a WBsave - is that ok?
     
  8. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    I agree that most of the civs are too easy to get a UHV victory at Monarch level. But there are several others which can be very difficult for the average player like myself.
    One good example is Cordoba. While it is easy to get Cordoba to largest pop. the automatic instability generated by the Arabs being Orthodox and the spawn and certain DOWs by Spain and Portugal make teching to Patronage and building 3 wonders before 1300 a bit tricky. Esp. as your cities keep revolting and going independent. Others I find more difficult are Germany, Poland and the Ottomans. But, yes, in general most civs are too easy.
     
  9. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

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    @st. lucifer: Of course it is OK.:)
    @jessiecat: Tweaking UHVs is a ''must'' before beta, IMHO. Venice is a good example.
     
  10. st.lucifer

    st.lucifer Chieftain

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    Heh, I failed even the first goal as Cordoba - because I looked around and thought that the tile 1e would be a better starting city site (it was, and the city was still Qurtubah... but it wasn't THE Qurtubah that had to be the highest population (I checked through WB and nobody else was within 1.)) Still, you're right - that one was more challenging, and I had a hard time with Poland as well.

    It might be worth looking at the degree of difficulty for each civ's UHV. It's perfectly fine to have some which are easier than others, and some which are very tough.

    In your experience playing Cordoba, would things be easier for them if Morocco wasn't so badly nerfed? Having played a few games, I'm less concerned about the possibility of a superpowered Maghreb - as is, it's tough to support more than a handful of weak cities, and I'm definitely going to give it a push back in the other direction.
     
  11. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    In fact, going for the UHV you don't really need cities in Morocco until just before the end. Three or four good cities in Andalusia are enough to beeline to Patronage and build your 3 wonders with lots of time if it weren't for your lousy foriegn instability and the risk of cities like Valencia and Cadiz going indy. But I think that could be fixed by tweaking the stability modifier a bit and making sure Arabia always adopts Islam, as has been discussed.
     
  12. kbk

    kbk Chieftain

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    I killed Spain on spawn with some chicanery with 2 Berber cavalry. The AI is just not very good when faced with light cavalry. Killed Portugal a short while later on their spawn, with a good stack of armored lancers.

    Then I just built up Iberia, built my wonders, and got a huge tech lead. The key to thriving with the Islamic religion is of course houses of wisdom. This means waiting to get chivalry until the last possible minute. I only got it after I built the Encyclopedia.

    During this time, my high score got my vassals of Moscow, Burgundy, Venice, and the Netherlands.

    Then, I took France, which got me up to about 21% land area. In the push for the final 4%, I took Austria, and built 3 new cities in Africa and dropped an artist in each.
     

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  13. Feyaria

    Feyaria Chieftain

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    Arabia can be realy overpowered in human hands. This picture says all.
    Almost finished the tech tree, +400 :gold: @ 100% science, almost all wonders and colonies.



    You can see the science drop after houses of wisdom got obsolete. (5800:science: to 3800:science: )

    The 25% Islam isnt a real challenge, i almost got that with my own cities. In the end i was at 42% islam!
     
  14. civmademepoor

    civmademepoor Chieftain

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    On another thread someone (Jessiecat?) brought up a respawn issue on Cordoba which awoke the hamster that turns the wheel in my brain: is there a way to make respawn conditional? For example, suppose that Ferdinand and Isabella did not eradicate Islam from Andalusia, there may have been a far greater likelihood of a "respawn" of Cordoba than with the religious cleansing that they did. On the otherside, England never eliminated Catholicism from Ireland, and had [has had] constant issues since the Civil War. Aside from religion, the continuing presence of another civ's culture could be another factor (I'm thinking Denmark/Sweden, Poland/everyone else, Egypt/Arabia & Byzantium).
     
  15. fdgsgds

    fdgsgds Mustard Enthusiast

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    Hahaha, Arabia is too easy, yes. I think the ottomans need to be stronger; although as playing as them I could make a 3 strength knight in one turn always in maybe 3 cities.

    How did you get +400 gold? I could only run the science slider at 90% to do that!


    Also in another game as Frankia, I took over so many places that I stretched from Spain to Poland. I had sorta-bad stability (-10 ish), then when Germany spawned (mostly taking cities that I built in their land), I instantly collapsed. I was sad to see my huge empire collapsed when my stability was mendable just because of something that was out of my hands.

    To civmademepoor, I think that's a good idea :) ... considering what happened to me; but Byzantium shouldn't respawn.

    And one last thing: I'm tired of Burgundy always being stronger than Frankia and Arabia turning out Orthodox.
     
  16. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

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    Yes. My idea was that if Cordoba is conquered by Spain before 1492, it should automatically respawn as a Muslim Berber state at Tanjah, flipping any cities in Morocco and continuiing as the Marininids, Timurids etc.. Same with Arabia if it collapses. It could respawn in Egypt or Tunis as a new Arab civ. ( Fatimids, Mamelukes?) Also, Ireland or Scotland might go indy if England goes unstable. etc. etc. Like when Germany respawns again at Augsburg now. If that could be coded.
     
  17. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Not difficult. I had even more in my Arabian game. Just have the right corps and expand them all over the world.
     
  18. Wessel V1

    Wessel V1 Chieftain

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    Is the CAR mod going to be implemented in the next patch? It would speed up the game a lot.
     
  19. fdgsgds

    fdgsgds Mustard Enthusiast

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    Playing as the Norse, the first UHV is a good one; but the second is very boring and easy (although getting through an independent Bosporus is impossible unless you plan on it). It sorta makes me not want to play as the Norse ever again. I might suggest having the second UHV be, like in RFC, having a certain amount of gold (4000-6000?). The third UHV is fun :).
     
  20. sedna17

    sedna17 Chieftain

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    Improved Re-spawning options is still on the to-do list.

    The CAR mod looks like a worthwhile addition and shouldn't be too hard to merge in, though I'll have to investigate a bit more.

    As for the 2nd Norse UHV -- I agree it can be a bit tedious, but I don't think it's too easy (given that it can be difficult to reach the Black Sea). It's a nice unique UHV and provides some necessary counter balance to the rather aggressive other Norse UHVs. I don't think we'll be changing it.
     

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