RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Beta 8

Portugal's 2nd UHV won't count (never lose a city 'til 1640)
It's 1666, I haven't lost a city. (not marked as failed either)

But besides that, I wonder what went wrong here :)
Somehow it's not the situation I had in mind when I started the game

Stability has become somewhat of an issue but manageable (new civics sytem will prob help allot)(and hopefully a new UB)
I would've liked to kill Cordoba but they're quite strong and if I raze their cities it seems to hurt me more than them :/
no clue how to handle Cordoba when playing Portugal (Cordoba can be quite a harrasment at sea as well)


Turkey(orthodox),England, Muscovy, Bulgaria are the top 4
Cordoba has Medici Banks
England built allot of stuff (colonies, wonders)
Why won't Cordoba just collapse? :cry:
I'm actually happy that they're beating up Spain this time instead of me...


I only have a save from either 1666 or 1425
 
Beta 8

Portugal's 2nd UHV won't count (never lose a city 'til 1640)

It's 1666, I haven't lost a city. (not marked as failed either)

Probably a bug.

But besides that I wonder what went wrong here :)
Somehow it's not the situation I had in mind when I started the game

Stability has become somewhat of an issue but manageable (new civics sytem will prob help allot)(and hopefully a new UB)

Will test it, but it should be "manageable".

I would've liked to kill Cordoba but they're quite strong and if I raze their cities it seems to hurt me more than them :/
no clue how to handle Cordoba when playing Portugal (Cordoba can be quite a harrasment at sea as well)

Cordoba staying strong can break the dynamics. If they attack you, you should get help from the Pope (I need to look at the war maps, I guess Cordoba is not in your war map is it?)

Razing cities is a bug (same one for the Norse).

Turkey(orthodox),England, Muscovy, Bulgaria are the top 4

I still haven't figured out Orthodox Turkey ....

Why won't Cordoba just collapse? :cry:

If they are shaky/unstable, instead of razing cities, try pillaging improvements (and make that lots of Improvements).
 
with sability I only meant that I have to be careful when expanding (the bureaucracy issue when more than 5 cities)

I meat the whole world situation with 'what went wrong'
whimpy spain, france
the whole civ rankings in general



Cordoba staying strong can break the dynamics. If they attack you, you should get help from the Pope (I need to look at the war maps, I guess Cordoba is not in your war map is it?)

umm, if I look at the warmap for Portugal in the reference folder
nope, only Portugal's core area and the atlantic islands (not a spot in morocco)


and well the Pope...:lol: he's not my friend when playing Portugal :)
the war usually starts when a city flips from Cordoba to Portugal around 2 turns after spawn, at that point the Pope couldn't care less about Portugal and that doesn't change
Cordoba is then usually quite intent on waging war againt you until either they die or they get what they want.

If they are shaky/unstable, instead of razing cities, try pillaging improvements (and make that lots of Improvements).
how about 'rock-solid' ? I was thinking more along something like atomic weapons or divine intervention :D (meteor hits Cordoba)
 
I was thinking more along something like atomic weapons or divine intervention :D (meteor hits Cordoba)

Nukes are a bit later than the mod ending date so we decided to not include them. As for the Divine Intervention, you should have gotten one from the Pope ;) The Defensive Crusade mechanics need to be improved, you should have gotten 2 - 3 Heavy Lancers/Knights (plus some infantry) on at least couple of occasions.

Right now Defensive Crusades look at the war maps, since Cordoba is not included in your you will receive help only if you lose a city. I need to extend that.
 
Last game as Arabia i had Cordoba as vassal (that helps their stability?) they crashed after the third Crusade against them.
 
It would be translated to Talusha or Taloosha.

I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?

Madrassa is a generic secondary school, essentially it only means "place of teaching". Beginning in the 11th century in Seljuq controlled Iran and Asia minor it was a place to study not only religious topics but also mathematics, logics, astronomy, grammar etc. Similar function to monastery but open to all.

House of wisdom is bait al-hikma in Arabic. It was a kind of university first founded by Abbasid caliph al-Mamun about 820 AD. The collection, translation and dispersion of Greek works on philosophy and sciences was its main task.
Yes, Madrassa should have the same bonuses as christian monasteries. Even if there are some obvious differences, it's better this way for gameplay.

Btw, right now monasteries needs only religion present in the city (so you can build them without adopting cath/orth as a state religion), while madrassa requires islam as a state religion.
Madrassas should be treated the same way: every city with islam should be able to build it.

House of wisdom should remain the way it is now - you can only build them if you adopt islam as a state religion
 
I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?

As far as I know the Andalusian Arabs (read: Cordobans) used the same kind of Arabic as those in the Middle East in those times. Though there always was a discrepancy between the spoken colloquial language and the written official one, as is still today.
The Arabic Wikipedia article on Toulouse actually spells it Tulooz/Tuluz but mentions a University of Taloosha in 1229 AD.
 
I'm not really sure if there are some differences for the names in cordoban or not
It should be the same name for Cordoba too?

I already answered that (check the website posted) ;)
Here are my comments, can someone please comment on them after playing a long Cordoban game:
Spoiler :

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here or here for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.
 
Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10 ;)

Obviously I do. I simply disagree. Byzantium is not hard to play, and you are a little exaggerating trying to convince us Byzantium is weak. And yes I do consider you biased, but you are not the only one who I consider biased in the subforum (look at Iberia for example), so that's perfectly normal. However, the point is that I have the feeling that you aren't trying to communicate your point in a normal way, but just shouting out loud that your favourite civ is being toned down AGAIN. I'll tell you: that is not what happened. I think that we (= you and the other posters) have a slight disagreement of what should happen. What I think and most others think that should happen, is that the human player must struggle to survive, hold off several attacks from multiple enemies and in the end survive with Greece and Anatolia under it's control and when played well, some other parts of the map. It is not reasonable to make suggestions to make Byzantium stronger than that. Fine, I'll play another game as Byzantium, beta 8. We'll see what happens. FYI, I have achieved all UHVs on Monarch in RFC ([/show off mode], so I hope I know what I'm talking about. I won't say that my findings reflect the actual situation, but I'll see if it is hard or not.
 
I already answered that (check the website posted) ;)
Here are my comments, can someone please comment on them after playing a long Cordoban game:
Spoiler :

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here or here for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.

Look there are many of you and only one of me, and I have to find time to code too. Even if I don't respond to every comment, I do read them all.

- Getting a second UU for the Ottomans would make little difference in helping them. They can already draft ... I don't know how "free units" would affect them.

- Many more of the Indies do start with religion, however, this causes Cordoba to turn Catholic .... working on it.

- Visigoth HA would be changed.

- I don't like putting Arabia and Cordoba against each other. Going form one end of the map to the next is a stretch for the Human and impossible for the AI. Also, if they dislike each other, then they will not OB with each other and that would certainly hurt them.

- The Battle of Tours was discussed and as it was pointed out, it was not nearly as significant as it was made to be. Also, there is nothing to prevent you from invading "Unstable" provinces, you just need to make sure you have the stability to keep them.

- Oran will be added to Cordoba.

- House of Wisdom exists to represent the early edge in science that the Muslims had. It becomes obsolete around the time of the Crusaded (Chivalry).

- Most Churches/Cathedrals do require a specific religion. There are also "religion independent" wonders. Palace des Papes is clearly associated with the Pope, however, Notre Dame could have been build as a large Mosque. This allows for some ahistroicity. Same with Muslim wonders, Dome of the Rock can only be build by a Muslim, however, La Mezquita can belong to any religion.
 
Obviously I do. I simply disagree. Byzantium is not hard to play, and you are a little exaggerating trying to convince us Byzantium is weak. And yes I do consider you biased, but you are not the only one who I consider biased in the subforum (look at Iberia for example), so that's perfectly normal. However, the point is that I have the feeling that you aren't trying to communicate your point in a normal way, but just shouting out loud that your favourite civ is being toned down AGAIN. I'll tell you: that is not what happened. I think that we (= you and the other posters) have a slight disagreement of what should happen. What I think and most others think that should happen, is that the human player must struggle to survive, hold off several attacks from multiple enemies and in the end survive with Greece and Anatolia under it's control and when played well, some other parts of the map. It is not reasonable to make suggestions to make Byzantium stronger than that. Fine, I'll play another game as Byzantium, beta 8. We'll see what happens. FYI, I have achieved all UHVs on Monarch in RFC ([/show off mode], so I hope I know what I'm talking about. I won't say that my findings reflect the actual situation, but I'll see if it is hard or not.

AND you still dont get my point :lol: never mind its okay, i dont intend on playing Byzantium anymore anyway. Unlike what most people think about me, i actually DO enjoy playing as the Ottomans :D
 
I have noticed that in beta 8 turtling in benefits civs strongly, meaning that defensive civs usually end up quite strong, Cordoba for exemple, while expansive civs usually crash.
 
Responses:
- Getting a second UU for the Ottomans would make little difference in helping them. They can already draft ... I don't know how "free units" would affect them.
Well why wouldn't it help them? And they don't need a "new UU", they can just have Musketmen, who when drafted are called "Janissaries". That would be the best UP for them IMO.

- Many more of the Indies do start with religion, however, this causes Cordoba to turn Catholic .... working on it.
Well just let the Cordobans start with more Muslim Missionaries, and have them start off with being Muslim, rather than having them convert! And I'm just saying in general that quite a few independent cities, deserve to have a religion. Palermo, should have Catholicism, Judaism and Islam, and the same goes for Cordoba, where Judaism and Catholicism should spread to it. Just make the Cordoban AI resist converting to other religions.

Also as for the Vikings, I would have starting around 1000 AD have Catholicism spread automatically to some of their cities, or else they become Orthodox Christian :crazyeye:

- Visigoth HA would be changed.
Good! But what have you changed it to?

- I don't like putting Arabia and Cordoba against each other. Going form one end of the map to the next is a stretch for the Human and impossible for the AI. Also, if they dislike each other, then they will not OB with each other and that would certainly hurt them.
Well thats what happened historically, and historically Cordoba did not have much friends. And anyway in my last game I had open borders with the Burgundians, the Norse and the Germans, and don't think its that big of a deal. And anyway you said the Cordobans were a tad OP, so having the Cordobans and the Arabs on bad terms is good, and why do they need to declare war? Basically they should be first Furious with each other and then Annoyed, and then farther on, their tempers can be reset from that fateful day in 750 AD.

- The Battle of Tours was discussed and as it was pointed out, it was not nearly as significant as it was made to be. Also, there is nothing to prevent you from invading "Unstable" provinces, you just need to make sure you have the stability to keep them.
Ok, I'm sorry but who ever said that the Battle of Tours was "not significant" is an idiot. And I know I can still invade an "unstable" territory, but thats the thing, it makes you unstable! And the Cordoban AI will never want to take it! The Battle of Tours was VERY important, and those territories should DEFINITELY be added to their maps. In fact if I were you, I would add "Muslim Barbarians" who attack the Southern French cities. That would be great fun!
In that same way Sicily should ALSO be added to the Arab OK stability map, or else that would be ridiclous, plus seeing an Arab Sicily would be hella cool :D Especially if you have to fight a war to remove them from it. In the past I actually have seen the AI Arabs take it, and when I play as the Arabs I always make it a goal to capture Sicily


Surprisingly though, when I took Toulouse, the French never tried to take it back :confused: Shouldn't they be jumping at me to capture that territory, which should be considered "theirs". And by the way I captured it from the inde's.

- Oran will be added to Cordoba.
Oh good! :)
But why not Anqutine and Provence? Can't you just make them "OK" provinces to attack/settle?
Also I hope you make the changes to the Cordoban settler maps for Toulouse and others. The website provided should make your life A LOT easier ;)


- Most Churches/Cathedrals do require a specific religion. There are also "religion independent" wonders. Palace des Papes is clearly associated with the Pope, however, Notre Dame could have been build as a large Mosque. This allows for some ahistroicity. Same with Muslim wonders, Dome of the Rock can only be build by a Muslim, however, La Mezquita can belong to any religion.

Ok I'm sorry, but thats just absurd, completely absurd. You need to AT LEAST have the the religion in that city to build it, if not have your state religion match it, or else thats just weird and plain not fun, when you have the Cordobans building everything. I mean how can the Sistine Chapel be built in Damascus?? PLEASE change each religious wonder to a specific religion, or else this is just crazy talk.

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Other Comments:

Also if you want, I was thinking that for the Austrian 3rd UHV you can rename it, instead of "Habsburg Alliances", "Holy Alliance" (a famous one between Prussia, Austria and Russia)

Another thing was that why not you remove the "beavers" who are totally out of place, and add in another graphic for "furs", I know Edead did that for SoI, and instead added in leopards which made more sense. You should consider making the change as well. Perhaps bears?

Also shoulden't Temple Mount be pre-placed in Jerusalem, since its ALREADY been built by this time? I mean your not making a mod about the Ancient Hebrews :lol:

Another problem is that Marco Polo's Embassy is being built WAYYYYYY too early, do you mind moving it up the tech tree :)
And Militarism so early on does not make sense in the European style. Having Vassalage early on is fine IMO. Can't you just change it back to later in the tech tree:sad:

And lastly, for the love of God, please change the "Masjid Al-Haram" which is situated in Mecca (not even on this map :crazyeye:), and just change its name to, "The Great Mosque of Damascus" OR "The Ummayad Mosque"
And on that note, can you please change the Muslim holy city to Jerusalem, it just makes SOO much more sense, since Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. Also if the Crusaders take it, it will make more sense for the Arabs to want to get it back.

Also I know your still working on civ names (at least I think you are), but why not you change the German Kingdom to "Holy Roman Empire", because frankly the HRE is not at all very well represented in this mod :(
Also on the note of name's for the "Arabic Knowledge" tech, it should instead be called, "Arab Knowledge". Also shouldn't it be moved back? At least on the same level as Gunpowder if not even a layer behind that. It just seems way too far in the tech tree.
And the Austrians shouldn't start with so many useless Archers, IMO just remove those 5 archers, and give them 2-3 crossbowmen.

When playing as Austria, I flipped Salzburg a German city and they declared war on me. Can you make it so that the Germans and Austrians are on very good terms with each other, because historically in the 13th century weren't they part of the SAME Empire even? So IMO they really should be best of friends

And VERY lastly, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove Joan of Arc as a French Leader and instead use the Clovis I LH that has been made, and I know you already have Charlemagne so you can rename the Clovis LH to another leader after Charlemagne, but its just TOO ridiculous that Joan of Arc is a leader of the entire French nation.
 
Oh wow Turk you are getting really intense here. The majority of the things here are for balancing reasons:
1. 2 UUs for only 1 civ, that's inconsistent. IMO janissaries could be a UU as the UP sucks
2. I think muslim missionaries are good, aren't there some already? Let's just let them convert, it'd be easier (1 turn loss, no big deal)
3. Tours is simply too hard to recreate. The Moors went to Tours and retreated in a matter of years, that's one turn... you can't represent a huge military move like that in less than 50 years gameplay. Plus France spawns earlier and gobbles up toulouse around 1000, and Spain is supposed to conquer all that territory Cordoba has taken with issues taking just Toledo as it is? Too hard and complicated for the AI to pull off.
4. This is to not make byzantine or another early civ take all the wonders, and to more evenly distribute wonders among religions. Also some wonders work a lot better with a more specific set of civs.
5. Why not furs... there are european beavers...
6. Marco Polo: I totally agree, it's usually built 200 years earlier than historically, some tech balancing could be in order, I think it's place in the tech tree is probably fine, it gets obsoleted after all.
7. Didn't know it was in Mecca, we probably should change that. Unless you can do the spawn in Jerusalem with no bugs, I don't see why we should change it. Also Damascus has serious food issues, I think it needs that oasis farther up.
8. It more shows the conflict between German nobles and Austrian Hapsburg control. It works fine ingame I think. I support the crossbow change.
9. I think Joan of Arc is fine, with so few women in the mod its good to have her.
 
@The Turk: cool down a little, stop the name-calling, play and enjoy a few games. Then you can see that the Ottomans do start Muslim and with 3 Missionaries. Also, there is a difference between Settlers Map, Wars Map and Stability (Province) Map.

Remember that many Mosques and Cathedrals served more than one religion. Spanish converted many Mosques to Churches and Ottomans did the reverse. Some wonders are very specifically tied to one religion or another (Round Church is the fracture of Orthodox Churches along political borders, Palas des Papas is associated with the Pope, Dome of the Rock is tied to a specific belief in Islam). Other Cathedrals/Churches are more religion independent, if Haga Sophia can be a Mosque in real life, I don't see why Notre Dame cannot be a Mosque too (or Orthodox, or Protestant).

Masjid Al-Haram is more of the "road to Masjid Al-Haram". Since Mecca is not on the map, we had to make Damascus the Muslim Holy City. The name should probably be adjusted (or just changed to something else).

Ignore Civ names, they are broken.

Arabic/Arab Knowledge comes in 1493AD. I will consider the balancing issues if moved further.
 
Well I am calm, and I'm not calling anybody names, thats for sure ;)
Also, I'm just trying to make this mod better than it is currently, as I know this mod has such potential :D

A few more comments:

1. What was the point of having Frankfurt as the German capital? Why not Aachen which for the early part of the game was the favored capital where all HRE kings got crowned? I've seen the Germans build the city quite a few times, so I know it is a doable capital.

2. Domyat is in the wrong place, its located on the Mediterranean, but here is is on the Red Sea :sad:
To be exact Domyat should be on plot (88, 4). The plot is currently mud/marsh, can you change it to "grassland", this would allow for the city to be built.
Also al-Qahira should be founded on(87, 1). If anything the city should spawn in 641, when the city was actually created (under the name al-Fustat, but we can just skip that part if you want ;) ). Because having a game with Cairo is a tad strange.

3. I never see the Arabs respawn correctly. Once they collapse, they should immediately respawn, but not in Damascus but in Egypt with a capital at Cairo. This way the Crusaders will have a tough time holding on to the Levant. For extra shits and giggles I would recommend having a respawning Arabia with Egypt and Damascus, to represent the Ayyuibd Sultanate, and you could then have a Saladin type army ready to recapture the Holy Land, only to have a Richard the Lionheart GG spawn there as well. That would be pretty awesome :smug:

4. The Byzantines are still WAYY too powerful, in the sense that although I'm happy they gobble up Bulgaria now, the Seljuks really need to be increased. I understand if the Human Byzantium can withstand the Seljuk hordes, I really do not understand how the Byzantines are resisting these hordes and on top of that capturing even more cities. I would strongly recommending adding more Seljuk Barbarians, and barbarians in general to attack the Byzantines. Perhaps a few siege weapons as well? :mischief:
Anyway its a balancing game I understand that, so once you add many more barbs, you can increase it or decrease it accordingly.

5. Saw a Muslim Cherbourg :crazyeye:

6. Cordobans way to strong still. Although I can't think of a way to easily nerf them. I'm thinking, perhaps when the Cordobans are played as the AI, perhaps you can tack on instability hits against them, and just wait for them to collapse. And then allow them to respawn in Morocco with Granada and a couple Southern Spainish cities.

7. England needs to be a bit stronger, espeically when confronting the French, perhaps giving them more units? And as I said before the English should flip Cherbourg (although Rouen would be a better city for them to flip) and Rennes, in Bretagne. Currently Normandy seems to be too big, perhaps making it a smaller province woudl be better. Basically though the English should start off with Bretagne and one city in Normandy, Rouen/Caen.

8. When looking at the map I saw the city of "Bulgar", but Bulgar is not a city is a tribal group, I don't understand whats the point of having that city there?

By the way, I was happy to see that the Cordobans built Tlemcen! :)
I'm happy they've expanded their settler horizons now that you've added Oran to their settler maps :goodjob:



The Temple Mount is supposed to be the Old Synagogue in Krakow, representing the Polish tolerance to the Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Synagogue_(Kraków)
Then you need to correctly label that, because currently its got the wrong description.
 
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