RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Hmm, this could work
    We leave everything the way they are now in AI vs AI situations
    Only have to forbid the humans to declare war on newborn civs. ~5 turns of autopeace with them like Caliom said
    This would be of course overwritten in cases where the AI spawns in war (Bulgaria and Ottomans against Byzantium, etc)
     
  2. Caliom

    Caliom Warlord

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    The idea is to give the AI time to build up their basic infrastructure, move their troops to fliped cities an use their settlers to found their own.

    Another idea would be - but thats just the thought of a dreamer - to use the "advanced start" mechanism to let the player/AI buy their starting units, cities, improvements, buildings, etc. on the turn they spawn. This way everything would be available right from the start and it would allow more different starts. Just imagine what the human player could do. Have you ever thought that an additional settler would have been better then the two axemen you got? :D

    I know this is just a dream :)
     
  3. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Couldn't you have Germany expand into Austria and improve the land before they spawn?
     
  4. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    This is far more realistic since it works with the autoplay.

    Hungary and Germany should expand into the Austrian area, although not settle Vienna, just improve around it.

    Usually Vienna and Salzburg have enough improvements, we can add an extra worker for Salzburg to help things.
     
  5. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Germany should also improve Bohemia for the Austrian flip
     
  6. Just6040

    Just6040 Chieftain

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    Bohemia usually doesn't get conquered by Germany then, though. However, it alomst always settles Salzburg, and once in a while Hungary settles in its flip zone, but it often results in a ~13 size city one or two tiles away from Wien.
     
  7. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    I also think that could work. They could even found Wien (after all, it's more historical than the city not existing before 1282).

    Also, when thinking about AI and tactics etc; we should keep in mind that it shouldn't be a "good" player tactic to actively prepare for the flip. I would consider it cheating (preparing for Austrians to emerge, building units for the last few centuries and positioning them near the border; removing units from cities that are to flip, or not settling those lands at all; etc). Why do I mention this? For example, when playing Hungary, if I prepare, I can kill Austrians in just a few turns (serves them bloody right, at least I had a good moment :D). But if I'm caught unprepared (that is, running a "normal" gameplay, they have a much larger chance to use their initial units and attack my land (I did that on the first play with RFCE). Of course, the real problem is, we can't help players not knowing things in advance - I do not know the solution :(
    Though maybe it'd help a little bit to randomise civ emerging in the interval of a few turns etc.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    AFAIK embrydead plans something like this for SoI - but I'm not sure if it's a good idea
    Maybe giving a few turns of autopeace for newly spawned civs would help too, as discussed in the last page of this thread
    To be more exact, humans cannot declare war on newly spawned civs for x turns.
    So if the new civ doesn't have preset war against them, it will have a few turns to build up defenses (or at least their cities)
     
  9. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    His mod also has some other differences as I see... some civs won't appear in their time unless some conditions are met (unstability in the region) (unless they are played by the player). Afaik it's not used in RFCE. This does have one solution for my problem - if I settle a region and keep it stable, why would it want to rebel and form a new civ? On the other hand, overusing it would take away from the challenge. (An interesting result of the feature was when a civ didn't want to collapse and give way to the new one, but when I attacked them, it was enough and in the mid of my siege a new civ was born with a new army).

    I think too, it could help.
     
  10. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    I agree on autopeace, too many times when playing the old civs I destroy 3-4 civs at spawn. Giving time to found 1-2 cities would make it impossible due to the unstable penalty.
     
  11. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    There is no real need for this in RFCE, so I'm against it
    Conditional spwans are only necessary in cases similar to the Ayyubid/Fatimid/Mamluk civs in SoI
    In this mod the only similar case is Byzantium/Ottomans, but I think it's more or less solved the way it is now
    Also, could you imagine that the Ottomans doesn't spawn in RFCE?
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Yep, I'm more and more convinced that this would be a good thing to implement
    But as I said, only in cases where the human player has advantage against a newborn civ
     
  13. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Finished UHV on easiest with Hungary and Muscovy.

    Hungary:
    This time I didn't settle in Austrian lands. Conquered Belgrad/Nándorfehérvár first, and waited for Belograd/Gyulafehérvár to reach size 2 so it doesn't get razed. Unfortunately didn't go for Fiume in time before the Venetians. They became vassals later anyway.
    The Austrians could have caused a trouble were I not prepared for them (though it's not a nice thing from me).
    I was chosen for the first crusade (even though having a low number of faith points that time), and easily captured three cities (which didn't change names back to Jerusalem, Antiochia, whatever). I think the Hungarian UP probably helped here (no unstability from foreign culture). Interesting to note is that for much time my trade was blocked to the middle east (ie. my cities there didn't get the resources from my european cities). I looked but the ocean trade route seemed like un-blocked.... (Though at some time there were certainly barb ships blocking my shore, one good point for the AI).

    The Ottomans spawned with a great number of knights, but somehow managed to disperse or lose many of them. Didn't let them conquer much in Europe, and they collapsed quickly after capturing Istanbul (which also didn't change its name back to Constantinaple or Konstantinápoly) .

    One mistake was that I didn't realize I had to build Golden Bull to get the civics early. Germans built it, but luckily didn't use it (it's probably no use for others anyway, as you would get a stab penalty without its complementary civics). So had to wait for some hundred years to research free religion and win. The largest region uhv was automatically won. (Fortunately the Kievans didn't collapse and Muscovites didn't play good, see next section).

    Ah, btw, where is the Mongol conquest (Tatárjárás) of 1241? They never seem to reach the Carpathians...

    Also, how come Golden Bull gives religion civics? First, it was in 1222 (waaay before even the reformation), and second, it was similar to Magna Charta, it gave rights to the noble classes vs the king (and actually weakened the king's power, or at least acknowledged that it happened).

    Moscow:
    By the start, Hungary and Kiev had already collapsed. Byzantines collapsed on the third turn. Good thing, no Kiev to fight :) Take some time to realize what the first uhv was - I thought first there would be attacks from barbs, but then realized I simply have to conquer back the cities from the barbs.
    So for beginners: go for the cities that are barbarian (dark grey/black color) and leave independent cities (grey) alone for now. Capture all black cities early and you're ok with first goal. Then go for the indep cities.
    Also, converted to Catholic in the beginning, not historical, but noone else was orthodox by that time. Helped maintain peace and trade. (Though still the AI is outrageously stupid when they think I will trade a tech worth five times what they want to give for it).
    As Byzant collapses early in probably most plays, it can be useful to go for some of their cities. I went for Galats (and probably could have gone further) to gain a foothold for conquering Istanbul. The Ottomans start in peace and didn't attack me. In fact, I waited for a long time and eventually they collapsed in the 17th C I think. Though that was probably a waste of time and should've conquered them earlier for a higher score. Still, a large army is needed. These cities are not well defended (with defensive units), but have a large number of bombards and cavalry.
    For the 20%land goal, I settled everywhere in Russia, even up north (and build culture), then won when conquered cities in Balkans then two in Turkey.

    Not exactly sure if the Kremlin UB was of any use. Nobody attacked me (though there are harder difficulties for sure) and didn't really need the espionage points. Only built them for culture.

    Btw for an earlier discussion (about Wien not there) : there are several cities pre-built in Russia...

    For both plays: I didn't have a problem with happiness, didn't build a single cathedral, and churches also weren't necessary. (Higher difficulties, again, might need them). Health is a problem, however. This is good, it's realistic. (Happiness should be harder too). Aqueducts and apothecaries come relatively late. (Problems with happiness and health help to promote trade.)
    It seems though that the AI has problems with both, their cities are often revolting (even when they are stable) and unhealthy. Maybe the AI doesn't focus on these?

    As for stability: didn't have a problem in these two plays, though stab rating only grew to an acceptable level later in the game. For Russians, I used the tactic of not changing civics at all (only after building some wonder that gives 0turns). Now they don't start in the best civics combo... If I switch early, stab can go down to minus (tried it, though luckily cities didn't revolt).

    While the stab in the end reached 90, I think the early civic changes shouldn't have so huge effect (even if it is small by the end). I think it would be more realistic and playable, if the religion changes would have a great unstab effect, but civic changes would only have temporary effects. (When protestantism emerged, Austria switched to it, then back in the next turn... how did they do it btw, shouldn't there be a minimum turn wait?)
     
  14. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Anyone can tell what happened in my screenshot? (Played with Portugal, turn214).

    Also, still Portugal. Spain has 0 relations for several turns, then +1for peace and -3 for close borders. Nothing about trade or brothers in faith (and this from a devout Catholic nation). On my first try they suddenly attacked me around 1215. Reloaded from first turn, this time they haven't yet. Also, first play there were two crusades quickly in succession (second one diverted to Constantinaple - so this works), second time no crusades in that period. Oh and Cordoba was eliminated by Portugal's spawn; only Sevilla was indep. Which I captured - don't know if that's a bad move or not.

    Also, I'm not exactly sure on the ships techs. I can build ocean-faring warships way before transport ships. (Think about it: astrolabe enables trade on ocean - now a trade ship loaded with tons of spice could hold a settler I think).
     

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  15. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Wanted to say this, but forgot: I've yet to see the Ottomans do any serious conquering. They should be out at Wien's gates, but I've not seen them past a few greek cities, even when Hungary was collapsed (dunno how they did it...).

    Also, where are the Mongols? (Ah, asked that another time I think).
     
  16. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Catholics get diplo boost only if they have high faith points. You will need to get some faith points before Spain likes you as a "brother in faith".

    Trade on Ocean tiles is enabled early for the benefit of the Norse. Since nobody else ca cross Ocean that early, for all intensive purposes, Trade on Ocean was enabled with Astronomy.

    The next version features a much stronger Ottoman Empire, don't worry about it (or more like you should worry about it).

    The Mongols are represented via a massive barbarian invasion around Kiev.
     
  17. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Cordoba used to respawn as Morocco, currently they respawn as the Hafsid Dinasty of Tunesia

    You only get diplo boost for sharing a religion if your faith points are high enough
    IIRC +1 diplo for 10 faith points
    Also, if you conquer those independent cities that are on Spain's war map (most of the Cordoban cities), then there is a real good chance they will declare war on you eventually

    I guess this was for gameplay reasons, will look into it
     
  18. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Actually I saw mongols spawning near the Carpathian-basin on quite a few occasions
    There were (is?) even an issue where a stack of 4 keshiks flipped to austrian control when they spawned in the same turn
     
  19. Ambreville

    Ambreville Deity

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  20. amrod

    amrod Warlord

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    Tried Portugal again, the Spanish still attacked me, only later.
    I think they should give at least an ultimatum before doing so.
    Like, if as said capturing Sevilla (from indep.) is angering them, they could demand it. After all,
    city trading is present in the diplomacy (though I've very rarely seen the AI demand a city in civ4).
    And there's no warning about not capturing Sevilla. Here could SoI's concept of core regions etc. come handy.

    At least the Spanish managed to build several warships, good point for being historical :) But they were awful with their attacking units. One lonely trebuchet tried to attack Sevilla and two knights pillaged around Lisboa (the latter is kind of okay, but really is that all they could send in? after conquering back the land from the cordobans?)
     

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