micbic
Optimistic Pessimist
When did the Genoans build Colonies? I would go for them to a "Have x gold at y AD''
RFC Europe: Small bugs/fixes
- Thread starter sedna17
- Start date
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
Genoa should found banks, not colonies.
A lot of UHVs in RFC can be divided into eras: e.g 1450 for Khmer is a cut off, while for Arabia if you don't win by 1300 it's over for the UHV. The 3rd criteria is usually a little more flexible in time, e.g. conversion to religion or researching techs first. You can even say that building certain wonders have a time limit because the AI will gun for them.
I would suggest something similar mid game (counting from spawn time) for more civs, rather than spreading out the UHVs, and making the last criteria a "by" criteria rather than "in" to allow for flexibility.
A lot of UHVs in RFC can be divided into eras: e.g 1450 for Khmer is a cut off, while for Arabia if you don't win by 1300 it's over for the UHV. The 3rd criteria is usually a little more flexible in time, e.g. conversion to religion or researching techs first. You can even say that building certain wonders have a time limit because the AI will gun for them.
I would suggest something similar mid game (counting from spawn time) for more civs, rather than spreading out the UHVs, and making the last criteria a "by" criteria rather than "in" to allow for flexibility.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Have added the Ottomans, Sweden and the Netherlands to the list.
I do agree about Genoa. Its just that if they are required to control Marseilles they will have Atlantic Access. However I've changed that one to 1 trading company and 1 banking corporation spread to 6 cities. That would be more fitting.
Your point about time is well taken. The assumption is that some civs like Burgundy, Kievan Rus, Cordoba and the Byzantines are intended to collapse or fade away by 1500AD so their UHV goals need to be accomplished earlier. Which I've tried to do. The rest should have to play until 1600 in order to get the UHV win, in my view. Some of the later ones will become much harder esp. if they have to build a trading company before they can build colonies. At present they don't. This needs to change.
I've also changed Portugal to "6 cities west of Iberia" to force them to colonize the islands, requiring them to have shipbuilding at least a long time before 1500AD.
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
A nice list. I approve of making many of the goals harder/shorter for now. A couple quick things:
1) I've (finally) figured out the obvious problem that was making the mod end in 1760. Ya'll will be able to play to 1800 now -- if your computer can handle it
Still, I approve of having most of the time-specific conditions wrap up before then.
2) A lot of the bug fixes for the old UHVs were problems that needed to be fixed -- but programming these new goals will introduce some new typo-bugs. Ah well, we need to play them all to see if they're feasible anyway.
3) In general UHV conditions which are "by" a certain date take more processing time than those which are "in" -- the calls to check a given area for "control" take a little time to run, especially for large areas, so it makes a difference if they have to run every turn versus just on one turn. In general though, I agree with AnotherPacifist that it's nice to make a final condition be a little open-ended as this way you can putter around for a while before the win if you want to, alternatively you can just get it done in order to move on to a new game. I think the colonies largely fill this goal though, because there are a lot of them.
4) This Arab one
5) The 1st English UHV appears to have gotten easier (dropping the 1 city in France requirement). I feel like the French city was the only interesting/challenging part of this UHV and support its return.
1) I've (finally) figured out the obvious problem that was making the mod end in 1760. Ya'll will be able to play to 1800 now -- if your computer can handle it
Still, I approve of having most of the time-specific conditions wrap up before then.2) A lot of the bug fixes for the old UHVs were problems that needed to be fixed -- but programming these new goals will introduce some new typo-bugs. Ah well, we need to play them all to see if they're feasible anyway.
3) In general UHV conditions which are "by" a certain date take more processing time than those which are "in" -- the calls to check a given area for "control" take a little time to run, especially for large areas, so it makes a difference if they have to run every turn versus just on one turn. In general though, I agree with AnotherPacifist that it's nice to make a final condition be a little open-ended as this way you can putter around for a while before the win if you want to, alternatively you can just get it done in order to move on to a new game. I think the colonies largely fill this goal though, because there are a lot of them.
4) This Arab one
will have to be changed to "Barbarians, Byzantines, or a Catholic nation", because there is no way to explicitly distinguish "crusaders" in the code. Still, that should play basically the same way.
5) The 1st English UHV appears to have gotten easier (dropping the 1 city in France requirement). I feel like the French city was the only interesting/challenging part of this UHV and support its return.
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
For England, how about specifically requiring both Calais and Aquitaine (i.e. Bordeaux or thereabouts) to be under British control? For accuracy, England should be more continentally-minded...the AI probably won't do it, but it will force the player to do so.
I agree about the time lag with "by" UHV conditions. Do civs have their conditions checked if they are not alive?
I agree about the time lag with "by" UHV conditions. Do civs have their conditions checked if they are not alive?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
No problems with changing the Arab to "never lose a city" to anyone if that's easier. And the English one was an oversight. I've just restored it to what it was.
Could you change the trading company for colonies requirement also?
Could you change the trading company for colonies requirement also?
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
UHV conditions are not checked if a Civ is dead, but that's rarely more than a handful of Civs.
The trading company prerequisite thing is (like the AI/project building thing), done in C/SDK. I'm a lot less familiar with this portion of the mod, so I need some dedicated time to really understand it -- but I'm definitely trying to fix both problems at the same time.
The trading company prerequisite thing is (like the AI/project building thing), done in C/SDK. I'm a lot less familiar with this portion of the mod, so I need some dedicated time to really understand it -- but I'm definitely trying to fix both problems at the same time.
JediClemente
Prince
Wow. Hadn't read that list. It's great jessiecat. Love the changes.
Though I'll propose some more.
For starters, I don't like Venice so much vent on conquest. It makes the game predictable and... too much easy.
Venice
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in mainland Greece, Crete and Cyprus by 1400AD.
2. Build Marco Polo's Embassy, San Marco Basilica, one more wonder and settle 3 great specialists in Venice by 1400AD.
3. Control 10 luxury resources by 1600AD.
No trading company, Marseilles nor Milano for Genoa. I don't really see the historical justification for that.
Genoa
1. Control Corsica, Sardinia, Cyprus, Crete by 1500AD
2. Have more gold, population and number of cities than Venice in 1500AD
3. Build 2 banking corporations in 10 cities each by 1600AD
Spain needs to be less boring and more accurate also (though it may be too difficult).
Spain
1. Conquer or vassalize all of Iberia (Cordoba must die?), and have 2 cities in Italy, 2 in Belgium/Netherlands/northeastern France by 1600 AD.
2. Allow no non-Catholic religion in its cities by 1600AD
3. Build 2 trading companies and 4 colonies
Though I'll propose some more.
For starters, I don't like Venice so much vent on conquest. It makes the game predictable and... too much easy.
Venice
1. Control the Dalmatian coast and have a city in mainland Greece, Crete and Cyprus by 1400AD.
2. Build Marco Polo's Embassy, San Marco Basilica, one more wonder and settle 3 great specialists in Venice by 1400AD.
3. Control 10 luxury resources by 1600AD.
No trading company, Marseilles nor Milano for Genoa. I don't really see the historical justification for that.
Genoa
1. Control Corsica, Sardinia, Cyprus, Crete by 1500AD
2. Have more gold, population and number of cities than Venice in 1500AD
3. Build 2 banking corporations in 10 cities each by 1600AD
Spain needs to be less boring and more accurate also (though it may be too difficult).
Spain
1. Conquer or vassalize all of Iberia (Cordoba must die?), and have 2 cities in Italy, 2 in Belgium/Netherlands/northeastern France by 1600 AD.
2. Allow no non-Catholic religion in its cities by 1600AD
3. Build 2 trading companies and 4 colonies
JediClemente
Prince
A possible bug: playing as Venice, I won two crusades and there was no question for me to redirect them to Byzantium. Only works for the AI?
Hm. Also. I won the first, and went with my crusaders for Tyrus instead of Jerusalem, waited for the second (as of course Jerusalem was still Arab), got the troops again... is this a potential exploit? It surely looks like the best strategy. Free troops for each crusade!
About jewish propagation. Is it coded completely? It never went to any of my cities. Aren't there supposed to be jews in Venezia?
Hm. Also. I won the first, and went with my crusaders for Tyrus instead of Jerusalem, waited for the second (as of course Jerusalem was still Arab), got the troops again... is this a potential exploit? It surely looks like the best strategy. Free troops for each crusade!
About jewish propagation. Is it coded completely? It never went to any of my cities. Aren't there supposed to be jews in Venezia?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
I agree the Crusades is really open to being an exploit if the human player hoards his troops but at present there's no reward for occupying the Holy Land and a big stability problem unless you run Imperialism. I've never had a problem with Judaism. There's always a couple of cities where I can build the Jewish Quarter.
As for the UHV list, I like your suggestions except for a couple of things.
1. Venice should have to conquer Rhodes. I'd have that instead of the specialists. The
3rd. wonder should be Leonardos Inventions. I'll alter Venice for both conditions.
2. You're probably right about the trading company but I think think 2 banking corporations with 10 branches each is too much. And I think they still need to control Milano and Marseilles.
3. Spain is a problem. I'm OK with them needing to conquer Cordoba and vassalize Portugal. And I'm OK with 2 cities in Italy by 1650. But needing 2 in the Netherlands area as well may be too much to achieve.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
After incorporating everybody's suggestions this is the current revised UHV list as it stands.
FuzzyRabbitLord
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2009
- Messages
- 29
A couple of things:
I really liked it when Genoa had to control Crimea, that was very challenging and fun
Does this mean Hungary needs to control a city such as tomis or that one to the north of it?
Kievan, are we supposed to control northern anatolia then?
also have the settler maps been reevaluated to accomadate these UHV's
finally is there anything being done to at least give the AI some interest in controlling the spanish netherlands, a problem is war with france leads them to go for south france rather than belgium.
I really liked it when Genoa had to control Crimea, that was very challenging and fun
Does this mean Hungary needs to control a city such as tomis or that one to the north of it?
Kievan, are we supposed to control northern anatolia then?
also have the settler maps been reevaluated to accomadate these UHV's
finally is there anything being done to at least give the AI some interest in controlling the spanish netherlands, a problem is war with france leads them to go for south france rather than belgium.
Wessel V1
Emperor
I like your suggestions, especially the new goals of Spain and Genoa. It is more difficult, but that's not that much of a problem I think. Spain has done it in real life, so why shouldn't it be doable in a game? The corporations goal also seems to be fun, since the player first has to found 2 corporations and then spread them.
I think I pretty much agree with the other UHV's now.
JediClemente
Prince
I like that as you've put it, jessiecat. Thank you.
There should be some more interest in Italy for some AIs. Maybe Spain and France's warmaps can be changed?
My main complaint about the Lowlands area: France shouldn't settle Anvers (french didn't control that for most of the time anyway), but it shouldn't be empty anyway. I suppose Burgundy could get a city on spawn there, just below the dutch zone; or an extra settler. They're doomed to collapse later anyway.
Talking about France, maybe this
1. Control the historic area of France in 1500AD
can change to
1. Control the historic area of France, 1 city in Italy, 1 in Belgium/Netherlands and 1 in the Rhine Bank in 1650AD
Why? France was along with Spain the main warmonger in the later period of the game (even more aggresive, as most spanish wars were deffensive in origin), which I suppose is the justification for their UP.
Ah, another thingy. You wrote "Conquer Cordoba, Control Portugal", but it could be better as now, just requiring Cordoba dead. It isn't the same, as that way you have to control Iberia, including independent Barcelona.
There should be some more interest in Italy for some AIs. Maybe Spain and France's warmaps can be changed?
My main complaint about the Lowlands area: France shouldn't settle Anvers (french didn't control that for most of the time anyway), but it shouldn't be empty anyway. I suppose Burgundy could get a city on spawn there, just below the dutch zone; or an extra settler. They're doomed to collapse later anyway.
Talking about France, maybe this
1. Control the historic area of France in 1500AD
can change to
1. Control the historic area of France, 1 city in Italy, 1 in Belgium/Netherlands and 1 in the Rhine Bank in 1650AD
Why? France was along with Spain the main warmonger in the later period of the game (even more aggresive, as most spanish wars were deffensive in origin), which I suppose is the justification for their UP.
Ah, another thingy. You wrote "Conquer Cordoba, Control Portugal", but it could be better as now, just requiring Cordoba dead. It isn't the same, as that way you have to control Iberia, including independent Barcelona.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
OK. I've left Genoa as 1 corporation with 8 branches and banks for now to see how it plays. If it's too easy we can easily change it later.
You're right about controlling Iberia. I'll change it. As for the lowlands its a geographical problem as would the AI go for it if it means controlling Western France as well? I'm not sure. I'm in favour of leaving it out for now as Spain has a lot to do already.
Your point about France is very valid. I've changed it to include all territory west of the Rhine which would include Belgium and put them in direct competition with Burgundy.
And I agree that Burgundy needs another settler now that that sedna has fixed the foriegn instability bug. Maybe France needs a second one too?
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
I'd prefer not to start France/Burgundy with another settler. These two are your only chances in this mod to play from a relatively "normal" starting position of just one city. I have seen the Spanish AI settle in the low-countries a couple of times. If my planned revision to force France/Germany to stay out of this area works, then maybe Spain will settle there more frequently.
JediClemente
Prince
Yes, I'd love that kind of revision. No more french Anvers or German Utrecht please... that would also help the Dutch at spawn, not being surrounded by as much old, strong-cultured cities.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
And assist your beloved Spanish? How could anyone think that? Perish the thought!
Me? I would never say that. It must have been the other guy!
civmademepoor
Chieftain
Ottomans
2. Control the Balkans south of the Danube and Vienna in 1600AD*(changed)
What exactly does this mean? Is it basically Europe south of the Danube, including Greece, as far west as and not including Venice and including Vienna? or is it something less than that?
2. Control the Balkans south of the Danube and Vienna in 1600AD*(changed)
What exactly does this mean? Is it basically Europe south of the Danube, including Greece, as far west as and not including Venice and including Vienna? or is it something less than that?
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
The Balkans is defined as being between the Adriatic and the Black Sea and south of Vienna. For the UHV that includes mainland Greece. So, basically as in the UHV map below.
