Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by st.lucifer, Nov 14, 2008.
This is a thread to discuss national and world wonders for RFC Europe. Proposals are welcome!
There was a proposed list a long time ago in the Discussion thread if we can find it. I'll try a search.
I've posted Disenfranchised's list to the Discussion thread. And I'll come up with a revised list here later. In the meantime I've found some nice art that we might use for new wonders, like the Alhambra Palace in Granada, the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, the Basilica San Marco in Venice, and one of the theatres pictured for La Scala opera house in Milan. I've also posted a file which has adapted some of the Civ3 wonders to Civ4 format. If we can use them we could add King Richards Crusade, Leonardos Workshop, Copernicus Observatory, J.S. Bachs Cathedral, Magellans Voyage, and maybe Adam Smiths Trading Company. What does everybody think?
OK. I've come up with following revised list of Wonders, incorporating 3Miro's suggestions and assuming we can use the Civ3 wonders adapted for Civ4 as described above. Where possible I've suggested their country or city of origin.
NATIONAL WONDERS (15)
Globe Theatre (England)
Ironworks (too late?)
Oxford University (England)
West India Company
East India Company
Ivory Coast (possible project?)
Aztec Conquest (possible World Wonder)
WORLD WONDERS (41)
The Sacred Palace (replaces the Forbidden Palace)
The Colossus -could enable Monument Building, free monuments?
The Theodosian Walls (Constantinople) replaces The Great Wall -could provide defensive bonus?
Krak des Chevaliers (replaces Chichen Itza) -castles in all cities?
The Mausoleum of Al Khalid (Aleppo, Syria) replaces The Mausoleum of Maussalos
The British Museum (replaces the Parthenon)
The Topkapi Palace (Constantinople) replaces the Pyramids
The Temple of Solomon
The Wailing Wall
The Tower of Hercules (La Coruna, Spain) replaces the Great Lighthouse
The House of Knowledge (Arabia) replaces the Great Library -enables Classical Knowledge?
The Moai Statues (renamed as something Norse?)
The University of Sankore (renamed?)
The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Spiral Minaret)
King Richard's Crusade (poss, art above)
Leonardos Workshop (poss. art above)
The Kremlin (Moscow)
St. Basils' Cathedral (Moscow) -art to be found
St. Sophia Cathedral (Kiev)
The Leaning Tower (Italy)
The Palazzo San Giorgio (Genoa) -art to be found
The Basilica San Marco (Venice) -art above
The Doges Palace (Venice) -art to be found
La Scala Opera House (Milan) -art above
The Sistine Chapel (Rome)
The Golden Bull (Hungary) -art to be found
The Jewish Quarter of Krakow (Poland) -art to be found
The Round Church (Bulgaria) replaces the Oracle
Copernicus' Observatory (Poland) poss. art above
Magellans Voyage (Portugal) poss. art above
The Belem Tower (Portugal) -art to be found
Notre Dame (Paris)
La Mesquita Great Mosque of Cordoba (replaces the The Taj Mahal)
The Alhambra Palace (Granada) art above
The Gardens of Al Andalus (replaces the The Hanging Gardens)
The Hapsburg Palace (Vienna) -art to be found
The Brandenburg Gate (Berlin) art above
J.S Bach's Cathedral (Cologne) -could enable Protestantism? poss. art above
The Amsterdam Stock Exchange (Netherlands) -art to be found
Adam Smith's Trading Company (England) -poss. art above
Remove the Oracle, that was obsolete by the time the mod started, use the art for the Round Church.
Done! What do you think of the rest?
Comments in bold.
I've replaced the Great Lighthouse with the Tower of Hercules in La Corunna, Spain. And the Oracle becomes the Round Church of Bulgaria. And I've renamed Chichen Itza as Krak des Chevaliers. And the Great Wall and Great Library. etc. (Trouble is I'm still editing this post). The Conquests probably should be projects or World Wonders too. Yes, the irrigation in Al Andalus was that spectacular in transforming a very dry and barren area into a rich agricultural one. I'll see if I can find the posts where this was discussed. Thanks for your observations though.
Just to bring the Proposed List of Wonders up to date, I've reposted it here.
We should also list the effects of the wonders. Noter Dame could be the same as in RFC, but the new ones need to be listed. The Round Church would use the Oracle graphics, but give more of Mt Rushmore effect. The Golden Bull would have the effect of Shwedagon Paya.
As Cornelio suggested, I'm in favor of doing the Aztec/Inca conquests as quests that become available when certain preconditions are met.
I also think that we probably don't want to overdo the national wonder colonies - while many civs had a sugar island, a far eastern port, and a slave trading entrepot, I don't know of that many with settlements or colonies that produced spices or furs.
I think that Ironworks probably is too late. If we were going to include it, I'd favor putting it as a world wonder (Kruppworks) rather than a national one.
Thoughts on world wonders in general:
-41 is a lot. I'm not sure we need that many; I'm also not sure if it makes sense to reuse every wonder function from RFC or BTS. Same goes for those we have artwork for - just because we have artwork doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea to use it in all cases. I'd be in favor of eliminating some of the more questionable world wonders, which I think civ4 did a pretty good job of. King Richard's Crusade would be an example of this. Also on my cut list - those wonders which represent concepts with buildings that didn't exist (Adam Smith's Trading Company being a prime example). I'm fine with concepts or cultural achievements being world wonders (I think the Golden Bull is a good one), but I don't want to create fictional wonders when there are buildings or achievements that could stand in for them.
-For the ancient wonders, I wonder if we should include them pre-built in those cities that held them, but have them provide only a small cultural bonus, rather than an ability. By this, I'm mostly talking about the Pyramids and Parthenon; the Colossus, Great Library, and Great Lighthouse had been destroyed; Stonehenge existed but didn't have much relevance or cultural significance (and also doesn't really fit into a city that we'd have on the map). Doing it this way would mean that we could remove the cultural buildings from Athens and Cairo that provide such a (arguably undeserved)bonus to their owners in the service of reflecting the culture of those cities, while still granting those cities some recognition of their cultural importance.
-Some civs are probably over-represented here. I won't name them, but if we break them down by civ, it doesn't quite balance. To some degree, this is understandable and necessary, but if we've got wonders that don't have proposed functions or wonders that could be represented by other buildings or concepts elsewhere rather than by giving a civ with 4 or 5 wonders another, we might want to take that into consideration.
So, this is my suggested cut list:
-The Sacred Palace (which? where? I'd just go with Versailles - RFC only permits the construction of one FP, and it's a global rather than national wonder.)
-The House of Knowledge
-King Richard's Crusade
-Leonardo's Workshop (possibly replace with Codex Atlanticus)
-The Kremlin (as Kremlin is now the Russian UB, I'd rather just go with St. Basil's.)
-The Doge's Palace
-Copernicus's Observatory (more representative of a concept/accomplishment. If we're honoring 'astronomy achievement', the wonder should probably be something like 'Galileo's Telescope'. If we want an observatory, I'd go with Brahe's.)
-I'd cut the Belem tower and use the artwork (if we can find it) for the monument to Magellan's voyage. I realize that the tower was built in honor of da Gama's exploits, but it represents the same type of thing.
-The Hofburg (Hapsburg Palace) is mostly a post-1800 building, spectacular though it is. If we need an Austrian wonder, I'd go with Prague Castle, or possibly a Mozart composition.
-The Grand Mosque of Cordoba (I'd move the Taj Mahal equivalency to the Alhambra)
-JS Bach's Cathedral
-Adam Smith's Trading Company
I've got a couple of other suggestions for wonders, mostly on the great works side - the Principia Mathematica being the first that springs to mind - but I'll post a list of those a bit later.
We could make the Golden Bull a project like the Internet and the Manhattan Project, those were important but were not buildings. So "wonders" should not be associated with buildings in every case. For the cut list, well I tend to agree that we need to cut some things. Crusades would be different in the game, so a crusade wonder would not fit. As for the other I am more concerned with actual function rather than art and name.
Perhaps the 'Globe Theatre' and 'Oxford University' could be made non-specific: 'National Theatre' and 'Lyceum' or *shudder* 'Elite University' p'raps.
I'm fine with keeping great works of art, science, and government as wonders; I just don't think that we should invent a building (Adam Smith's Trading Co; Leonardo's Workshop) to represent them.
The best argument that I can think of for making the Golden Bull a project is that you shouldn't be able to use a great architect to rush it. Other than that, I'm ok with having it as a wonder.
I think we used opera house as the Austrian UB, but that would be a good national wonder equivalent to the Globe Theater. For a less specific Oxford, 'National University' would describe institutions like Oxford, the Sorbonne, Heidelburg or Leipzig, Sevilla, etc. It's kind of a clunky name, but is marginally better than 'elite university'.
Cutting the Grand Mosque of Cordoba is pretty ridiculous, IMO. Otherwise I agree with st. lucifer.
Much better. Go with that, says I.
If you had to choose between it and the Alhambra, which would you pick? I reasoned that the Alhambra was better known, and as we didn't have proposals for the function of either building, it was between the two. I'm fine with it going the other way.
Thanks to everybody For their comments. I'll try to respond to them. I agree that 41 is probably too many world wonders. I can reduce that to 30. Would that be low enough?
As per balance, I agree that not all civs are represented. We still need one for Burgundy and Sweden. And a couple of civs have more than 2 (but not "4 or 5"). England, Arabia and Cordoba have 3 each. I would propose a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 2 wonders per civ. Agreed?
Are we saying that we shouldn't use any of the ancient wonders even if we replace them with something more appropriate to the mod? Some were included like the Topkapi Palace (replaces the Pyramids, same function) to give one wonder to the Ottomans. And the Theodosian Walls (replaces the Great Wall, same function) for the Byzantines. However, I agree on scrapping all but a couple to help reduce the list.
I don't agree that scrapping so many Civ 3 wonders was a good idea at all. Some of them like Magellans Voyage, Leonardos Workshop and Copernicus' Observatory would be ideal for our mod. The latter was chosen to give Poland a 2nd. wonder and is more familiar to a majority of our players than most of its possible equivalents.
I reluctantly agree to drop the Great Mosque of Cordoba in favour of the Alhambra on the grounds of familiarity but only if we retain the Gardens of Al Andalus which is more functional and historically important.
I do agree that some like the Kremlin, the House of Knowledge, the British Museum, Adam Smith's Trading Company, King Richards Crusade, J.S. Bachs Cathedral, the Sacred Palace, the Belem Tower, the Maussoleum of Al Khalid, Stonehenge and the Doges Palace should be dropped as not necessary. So, thats 11 eliminated for a start, reducing the list to 30.
I will include specific functions for each wonder with the next proposed list but I need a response from somebody (esp.st. lucifer?) to the above questions before I proceed.
My argument against including ancient wonders was simply that they should be prebuilt without their classical function - essentially, impressive monuments of the past, but obsolete in a new era. They'd give a culture bonus, but no special function beyond that.
In doing this, we'd make it possible to reassign the benefits given by the ancient wonders to more period-appropriate ones - so your ideas for the Topkapi Palace and Theodosian Walls are not only appropriate and good ideas, but this way they don't overlap in function with anything else.
While I like the 1-2 wonders per civ guideline, it may not be completely possible to follow in all cases - some parts of the world simply produced more impressive architecture, scientific, and cultural achievements. I've got a proposal for a Burgundian wonder (the monastery of Cluny), but I've got nothing for Sweden, and my family's Swedish. We may have to assign that one to Hitti-Litti.
So, I don't necessarily have a problem with Arabia or England or Cordoba having 3 wonders, as long as we're relatively balanced and as long as the list isn't too long. Actually, as proposed, I've cut England down to 1 wonder (the British Museum, which you put on the cut list), which is probably too few (although that goes back up to 2 if we take the Principia Mathematica or Royal Society). I'm ok with including the Grand Mosque of Cordoba if we have a clearly defined function for it which makes sense, and if it doesn't give us the appearance of over-representing one civ over another. I didn't object to the inclusion of the Gardens of al-Andalus because they had a suggested function; if the GMoC had a function that fit it better than it fit any other wonder, I'd be fine with keeping it.
As far as the Civ 3 wonders go, some of them I'm fine with (no objection to Magellan's Expedition, for instance). It's the ones that create a historically nonexistent institution to represent an accomplishment (Adam Smith's Trading Co., for example) that I have a problem with. If Adam Smith's Trading Co. had the same function and were renamed the Wealth of Nations, it wouldn't bother me at all. Make sense? So I'm fine with keeping the function of Copernicus's Observatory and renaming it Copernican Revolution (although I still feel like Galileo's Telescope would be better, that does skew things further towards Italy), or keeping the function of Leonardo's Workshop and renaming it Codex Atlanticus, or redoing the function and renaming it Mona Lisa.
If anything, I think I'd like to see more of the significant cultural advances represented as wonders over buildings that may not be well known outside of their own country. That's why I'm arguing for things like Mozart's The Marriage of Figaro over buildings like the Hofburg or Prague Castle, spectacular though they are (although in the case of the first, it's also a question of time period).
What do people think of that idea?
I am also in favour of adding the obselete ancient wonders (but I think by 500 AD only the pyramides are still there).
The Temple of Solomon was long destoyed by the middle ages. Rename it into the Temple Mount would do fine.
For Sweden, one could use the monument as runestones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestones_at_Aspa#S.C3.B6_Fv1948.3B289) or the Kalmar castle giving some political bonus.
National Park could be removed, as nature preservation is not something of the timeline.
No great wall please, as we'll see the wall on the map and there are no walls in europe in the timeline
Separate names with a comma.