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Rhineland

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Map Scripts' started by ColBashar, Nov 4, 2010.

  1. skweetis

    skweetis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Canada
    I'm not 100%, but I don't think you have to have the Steam version. If yours is boxed retail, you can install the Steam application, set up an account and you should be able to install the SDK.

    I have the boxed version, but also have Steam for some other games, and this is what I did.

    Let me know if you want me to get you detailed information, this is just off the top of my head!

    Cheers!
     
  2. Mentos

    Mentos Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    I’ve been looking through vanilla and custom map scripts but nothing really impressed me so far, except Rhineland.

    Typically, you either have one large continent where everyone is cramped together or several small continents or landstrips isolating too much. Further, ocean is often either filling too much space or looks like a duck pond without much travel possibilities.

    Large Continent: Plenty land tiles with many settlement choices, but you are often confronted with many civilizations at same time which enjoy sending streams of settlers right into your territory. Naval units circle around and only bother a few coastal cities, while the main action is inland.

    Small Continents/Landstrips/Islands: A playground for naval units but hardly for land ones. There isn’t much to explore and not many satisfying choices for settlement. I often ask myself there: Should I really bother to colonize the other continents or let it be?

    Rhineland offers a good mixture of both types. You’ve got plenty connected landmass, especially without ice caps, to settle and explore, while naval units can roam along waterways between. Mountains block sometimes regions, so you aren’t always bothered from all sides.
    Playing quick games on tiny maps is like playing with other map scripts one or two sizes larger.
    There is much variety of the landscape with every new game. Sometimes, there is a large stream in the middle, like in a North/South or West/East scenario, or there are a few streams or stretched large lakes winding through the map. Only sometimes, you wish some waterways would be longer.
    Maybe there is no sophisticated climate simulation like in other map scripts, but all terrain still doesn’t look too wildly placed with the standard settings.

    A really good map type I recommend to try out!
     
  3. ColBashar

    ColBashar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    32
    Hi Mentos. Thank you very much for your review. It means a lot to me that people find enjoyment in my work. You hit on the main points I was trying to achieve with Rhineland, so this comes as confirmation that I accomplished what I set out to do.

    One point I would like to refute, though, is that the climate mechanics are actually fairly sophisticated. More so than any of the vanilla map scripts. If you look closely, you'll see that mountains tend to divide wet from dry areas. There aren't any random factors involved in generating the terrain, it is derived from the placement of ocean and mountain tiles. I added just a bit of fractal blending (randomness) for cosmetic effect, to prevent noticeable horizontal lines, and this can be disabled from the advanced menu. I did use the Firaxis default river and forest placement.

    To be honest, Civ5 doesn't interest me the same way Civ4 did, so I don't play it often and can't call myself an experienced player. Consequently, I've neglected to continue updating this script. I would be interested in hearing any suggestions you or other players, more veteran than I, have for balance or tweaking.

    For example, you mention that sometimes you wish water passages were longer. Do you think this adds to the strategic value of the map, making it more interesting, or is it just a frustration? Have you tried adjusting the sea level setting on the advanced menu to see if that makes a difference?

    Also, if you haven't already, you might be interested in looking at the Civ Density option, which is the real determination of map size relative to player count. "Map Size", i.e. Tiny, Small, etc, has been disabled in this script, which is why you may see disparities in map dimensions between this and other scripts.

    Thank you again for your interest and the time you've taken to write feedback. It is appreciated!
     
  4. Mentos

    Mentos Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Good to know you are still lurking! :D

    What I meant by longer waterways that it would have been nicer if you could chug with your naval units more or less through the whole map, like following a long snake writhing through the landmass. If you increase the sea level, you tend to get too wide waterways, more like oceans again, which reduce the landmass too much.

    With Rhineland standard settings, you often get several snake-like ponds which have no connection to other waterways. Those occasional one-tile connections are too much of a hindrance for ships while land units with embarkation can cross water anyway. Placing a city there isn't always a doable option (distance to own territory, city states blocking, already too many cities, etc.).

    What I’d really like are meanders where all waterways are connected with additional branches, so you can basically reach all map regions with naval units; basically like upscaled rivers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meander

    Or just let us take the Protomac as example. Such net of waterways useable for ships would be neat:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Potomacwatershedmap.png

    In the end, you got more "Rhine" river than lake-waterways with plenty landmass to explore, battle and settle while naval units can support. Those waterways could also serve as a faster transportation alternative for land units. The chance is high that all placed civilizations have access to one large waterway system then what increases the naval battle fun.
     
  5. ColBashar

    ColBashar Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
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    I know precisely what you mean. My goal was to have the script generate maps featuring one or two (preferably two, since I do like inland seas) main waterways and fewer ponds but I haven't been able to implement it yet. To do so would require significant changes to the script, which was always on my to-do list but never really enough of a priority to actually affect. I'll take a look at it this week to see what work needs to be done and then I'll figure out if I want to put the time into building the new version. For the time being I regard the script as being "as good as I can get it".

    Incidentally, I think the hex grid may have something to do with the problem since I recall the waterways being more congruous in my Civ4 script. The next major build of the script will feature a new fractal generator which may or may not help. We'll see.

    Anyway, I still suggest try playing on a map with high sea level just to get a feel for it. Unlike other scripts, Rhineland is designed to compensate for sea level and scale the map dimensions accordingly. This means that the number of land tiles should be roughly comparable regardless of which option you choose, so the landmasses are not so much affected as is their proximity to one another.

    ... in theory. <g> With all the variation that the map offers, it's difficult to test every single combination of options. That's what makes observations like yours important. If you really believe that high sea level is eating up landmass then this is something I'll have to go back and take a look at.
     
  6. Mentos

    Mentos Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
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    Yes, you can get sometimes very nice results with high sea-level but also often too many small continents and islands.

    I’ve taken a screenshot of a high sea-level example which offers almost a perfectly connected waterway system. I used the World Builder to generate dozens.
    You can see there though that it already has quite a fragmented landmass with several tiny islands. It’s already close to the Bayou landmass setting.

    Spoiler :
    Now, let’s say we restrict the waterways to 1-4 tiles width somehow then we would possibly get a lot more landmass with less island fragmentation. I see no problem with cut-off continents if they are 1-4 water tiles away from each other.

    Just keep Rhineland setting as it is and add another landmass option, like "Meander", if you’ve got the time and motivation to implement another.

    Here's another waterway system idea if you got the hang of waterways and are bored:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort :D
     
  7. LetMyPeopleGo

    LetMyPeopleGo Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2008
    Messages:
    434
    Hello ColBashar,

    It's over two years since the last post so I don't know if you're around, I tried your RhinLand map script and I always end up with the upper and/or lower border of the cut through the landscape, I have an attachment:

    Rheinland_screen_save.jpg

    As you can see the upper portion of the screen is how the map ends, this is on huge, lakes, sparse, strategic ice, on huge,rhinland, sparse, firaxis I got similar results on the lower edge, is there a problem of compatibility with any dlc's or you think that's how the results of the script should look like?

    I examined your examples on page 1 and they look like mine, is there a way to get the "normal" oceans around the caps with or wo ice caps or since it/s a derivative of big-lakes then this is the way the maps should be. (never played big lakes)
    Many Thanks,
     

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