1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Rhye of Imperialism

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by kairob, Aug 22, 2009.

?

Which of these civs should be included in the mod.

  1. Austria

    86 vote(s)
    57.3%
  2. Poland

    52 vote(s)
    34.7%
  3. Denmark

    44 vote(s)
    29.3%
  4. Italy

    76 vote(s)
    50.7%
  5. Mexico

    70 vote(s)
    46.7%
  6. Peru

    49 vote(s)
    32.7%
  7. Persia

    78 vote(s)
    52.0%
  8. Khmer

    44 vote(s)
    29.3%
  9. Mali

    38 vote(s)
    25.3%
  10. Zulu's

    49 vote(s)
    32.7%
  11. A Native American Tribe

    46 vote(s)
    30.7%
  12. Egypt

    57 vote(s)
    38.0%
  13. India

    74 vote(s)
    49.3%
  14. Ethiopia

    57 vote(s)
    38.0%
  15. Canada

    65 vote(s)
    43.3%
  16. South Africa

    55 vote(s)
    36.7%
  17. Brazil

    77 vote(s)
    51.3%
  18. Indonesia

    50 vote(s)
    33.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
    So my attempt to make a later start sort of snowballed and I am now pleased to announce a new project I have decided to undertake. RFI (Rhyes and Fall of Imperialism).

    The plan would be a new calendar, modified tech tree and altered Civs, but on the old map. This would thus be a much easier project than RFC:E was as most of the work is already done.

    I figured we could have 3 starts to make most use out of the later start system that BTS allows. One at the begging of the Colonial Era with Spain and Portugal just set out to colonise, one later on when the other European powers join the race and another after most land has been gathered to provide a launch to the modern era.

    Someone suggested in the old thread that 1450 might be a better start than 1500 as the Iberian nations wouldn't have colonies so that makes the first start quite an easy one.

    I think based on rather limited research that 1660 would be another good start date based mostly on this picture. It shows the Iberian Civs as already established but the other Europeans seem to have just started their Colonial Empires. The situation in India seems particularly interesting as any one of the four Civs with cities there could end up acquiring it.

    The final start should be in the late 19th Century shortly before the Crimean War. This would give the feel of 3 potential superpowers along with the option of playing a definite underdog. Also, all the Civs would be available from the start, here allowing people who want to play as later Civs like Germany to not have to wait.

    I would also like to mention the 'Ex-Colonies Civs' which I thought would start off as vassals of whoever owned the most cities in their flip zone when they appeared.

    So in terms of making it I figured that I would do so and learn how to code to do it, however as this would be my first big venture I would really appreciate it if an experienced coder would agree to help me by explaining things the tutorials don't, and checking stuff to see whats wrong. Also, as much as I am interested in history I would not say that this period covers my field of expertise and as such would like research experts and busy bodies to post on this thread about historical innaccuracies, gameplay tips, things they want to see and any other thoughts remotely related to the topic at hand. In particular, when planning the cities for the 17th century start (see attached picture) I came at a loss on what cities would be best for Russia and the Far East. Tips on that and corrected placement for other Civs would be useful.

    On a final note with this thread comes a poll asking about what Civs you think should be in the game. I didn't include obvious ones (like Russia or France), so please vote for each of the Civs in the list you would like to see in the mod, but bear in mind that each Civ comes with a price (stability, turn times, available colonising space and hard work putting them into the mod).

    Thanks for reading, I know it's a long post.

    EDIT;
    Below are the final list of civs. Please help us develope them on here, or discuss more general aspects of the mod on this thread.
    Spoiler :
    China (Ming)
    Spain
    France
    Britain
    Netherlands
    Russia
    Portugal
    Turkey
    Austria
    Persia - 1500
    Mexico - 1521, 1821
    Peru - 1542, 1824
    Brazil - 1549, 1822
    Japan - 1603
    Sweden - 1611
    China (Qing) - 1644
    USA - 1776
    Italy - 1814
    Australia - 1856, 1986
    India - 1858,, 1947
    Canada - 1867, 1931
    Germany - 1868
    ----------
    Natives
    Independents 1
    Independents 2
    China Rebels
    CSA
    Aztec (needed for conquistador event)
    Inca (needed for conquistador event)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
  3. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    I think a new feature should be introduced: Trading posts. These will be built from settlers just like cities, except they can't grow and can't expand culturally. All they do is allow you to build improvements over the resources in their little cultural zone (or whatever it's called, the opposite of BFC) They should be able to work 1 tile or 2, but no specialists, and they shouldn't count in stability issues and definetly not in the research penalties (so civs will actually gain something from building them).
    Next idea: Protestianism instead of Judaism. I think including Protestianism in the historically-protestant nations (Sweden, England, Netherlands, Germany) will make the mod a little bit "spicier" if you know what I mean :).
    Final suggestion for this post: Change special resources like spices, bananas, wine, to be continental-specific. That is, spices in the Americas is not the same as spices in India, they should have the same bonuses but be "different", so having one of both is better than having two from only one type, except if you trade one of those ofc.
    BTW Austria should definetly be in, if not what's stopping the Ottomans from expanding into Germany?
     
  4. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
    About your idea of trading posts, how would this idea suit you?
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=300786
    However, because the colonial and Imperial eras will have more turns in them with the changed calendar I am not sure it is necessary to include this idea...

    Also your right, I think the religions should be tweaked, Probably Orthodoxy as well as the other two...

    Not sure about continental versions of resources though, I'll have to wait and see if other people like the idea.
     
  5. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Yes that could indeed work.
     
  6. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
    I am not sure how important this idea is because of the extended time frame Civs have to colonise, I think they would have time to colonise everywhere they want with cities.

    Also, I agree with your ideas of religions and would go one step further suggesting we add Orthodoxy to the game as well.

    Finally, about Austria and Central Europe, what do people think of this guys idea to have the HRE, Prussia and Austria?
     
  7. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Still, it could turn all those 1-tile islands into places you can settle without damaging your technology and stability.
    If your mod starts at about 1450, with a focus on all the years from then until ~2000, it seems to me like there's some good 400 years to settle all over the world.
    BTW, what do you think about the different resources for each continent?
     
  8. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,434
    Location:
    Ireland
    For reference, the original civs are:
    Egypt, India, China, Babylonia, Greece, Persia, Carthage, Rome, Japan, Ethiopia, Maya, Vikings, Arabia, Khmer, Spain, France, England, Germany, Russia, Netherlands, Mali, Portugal, Inca, Mongolia, Aztecs, Turkey, America

    Here's a list of civs converted into their significant colonial-era analogues. I've left question marks where there is any doubt about the civ's importance (i.e. it was either never revived or it is effectively Independent):
    Egypt, India, China, ?????, ?????, Persia, ?????, Italy, Japan, ?????, ?????, Sweden, ?????, ?????, Spain, France, England, Austria, Russia, Netherlands, ?????, Portugal, Peru, ?????, Mexico, Turkey, America

    That's 9 gaps. Of the 18 poll options, I've taken the liberty to include 7. So the poll will only have to exclude a small number of those civs. In fact, you may want to think about others that you could include to replace civs which by the 1600s had declined into unimportance (e.g. Mongolia). Also, you have the Celts/Byzantines slot to play around with.

    Proposed religions:
    Protestantism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Islam, Chinese Traditional, Hinduism, Buddhism
    If necessary, of course, you can choose a number different from 7.
     
  9. Steb

    Steb King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    682
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    I think that most of your proposed ex-colony civs should be in, because this really is what's missing from RFC in my opinion: decolonization. That way, starting in 1775 with the Americans until ~1950 with India and Indonesia, you would have plenty of spawning new civs taking over cities from those big Colonial Empires.

    Also, perhaps those ex-colonies should receive very little units at their spawn, with one or no settler, so that the shape of their country really is dependant on former colonization. If nobody cared about South Africa before 1910, then South Africa shouldn't spawn at all. I realize though that this would create problems when the non-spawning civ is human (perhaps AI and human starting units should be different), and it would mean that playing as them relies heavily on luck.

    As for other civs, I'm pretty sure Khmer and Mali should be left out, because 1) their most important periods are gone in 1500 and 2) they would forbid access to nice colonial spots in Western Africa and Indochina (especially the latter, it's almost never colonized in RFC because of the oversized Khmer Empire).

    I look forward the day modern Iran and Italy are playable! If any African civ is included, it should be Ethiopia as it was the only country to remain independant during the Scramble for Africa, except for a small Italian occupation period (Italian UHV?).

    If you put Canada in, you should include Australia as well, so that for once there is a player in Oceania. None of these country are absolutely necessary though, even if I'd like to see my homeland included. :p

    Finally... I don't know about central Europe anymore. Austria, Germany, Prussia, HRE... it's overly complicated. I'd like to see, however, a German power capable of building a colonial empire.
     
  10. T_F

    T_F Reynardine the Great

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,163
    This looks good, definitely looking forward to it. I really like the decolonization idea, and if it works out well here I'd like to see it in the full version of RFC.

    I would hope that for earlier starting points (say before 1600) it would also be possible to colonize the new world as Japan and China, and maybe write the AI so once every few games one of them manages to do it as the AI.

    1450, 1660 (or maybe just 1650 for roundness' sake) and 1850 sound like good start dates.
     
  11. Lean

    Lean Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    New York
    I like Panopticon's propsed religions, as well as Steb's ex-colony starting units suggestion, and the inclusion of Australia if Canada is added. I also second the idea of a HRE that becomes Austria and a Prussia that becomes Germany. May I also suggest historical civil wars, if it's possible? For example: Around 1860, all cities south of Washington that America controlls will become barabrians (or a minor civ) to simulate the American Civil War, ect. I think it would be a good idea, because it will hinder a civ and make it harder to achieve it's UHV's because it has to contend with 'rebellious factions' in its own civlization. Just throwing in my two cents.
     
  12. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
    Thanks for the feedback guys. :)

    @BurnEmDown - I am not sure about your resource idea as I don't know what names the different types of spices etc... would have and what the effect of so many new resources would be, however it might grow on me. Also I like the colony idea and might put it in depending on what the public reaction to it is, if I have the ability to code it and whether I can find suitable graphics.

    @Panopticon - I am not convinced that I should try to fill all of the available slots as fewer civs would run faster, I do like your religious list though, but am wondering if the is a better name for the 'Chinese Traditional'.

    @Steb - I too like the idea of colonial civs representing decolinisation, but I think that they should start of earlier than their 'independence date' and start of as vassals to the dominant power in the region. They could later stop being vassals as their declaration of independence. I am also thinking about removing the units converting from the old team to the new if they get declared war on straight away, I have never liked this mechanic and think its absence might make playing as colonial civs more of a challenge.

    @T_F - I am not sure about China and Japan being able to colonise, throughout the colonial period China and Japan were not very strong compared to the European countries, also European countries had a motive for exploring new lands, none one else did (otherwise China could have colonised the New World a long time before we did). I might give way to public oppinion though if this is something most people want to see.

    @Lean - I am not sure about having civil wars and stuff coded in that way as it would make the game too static and predictable.

    @Everyone - Going to start working out the Tech Tree and Units now. Will check up again later.
     
  13. T_F

    T_F Reynardine the Great

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,163
    I think with a couple of historical modifications each is plausible - if the Chinese treasure fleets in the 1400s hadn't stopped, they might have gone so far; and I know Toyotomi Hideyoshi had quite a lot of colonial ambition in Asia, and an extension of his policies could have led to Japanese colonies in America. True, both were certainly weak after 1600 (a 1650 start would leave it pretty much impossible), but China was certainly strong during the 1400s (and the Ming still managed to make effective use of Western cannons and tactics in the early 1600s), and Japan was very receptive to Western technology up until Tokugawa took over in 1600.

    I think perhaps Neo-Confucianism is a good name for the Chinese religion. It's a bit difficult to group Neo-Confucianism and Daoism together, but IIRC I don't think Daoism was particularly influential at this point in time.
     
  14. Panopticon

    Panopticon Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    1,434
    Location:
    Ireland
    I agree that fewer civs would be better. My opinion is that, of the poll options that I didn't include, only some should make it. Poland won't fit, Denmark is less important than Sweden, Khmer, Ethiopia Mali are past their prime, the Zulu had too brief a period of historic importance, the Native Americans weren't settled in significant numbers, and Indonesia would be unlikely to have a significant presence, especially if it is born at around the historic time.

    I would include Canada and Brazil as the remaining candidates from the list. South Africa is iffy - I am torn between it and a Gran Colombia-style empire in northern South America. I would also include Australia and a German state like Prussia. By leaving the others blank, including the Celts slot, you make a net loss of five civs, which may be useful in large games.

    The two very important mechanisms you will need to design are:
    1. Colonisation - in a game about the imperial era, this must be implemented better than in standard RFC.
    2. De-Colonisation - perhaps the post-colonial states should not be tied to appearing at a certain fixed spawn date. At least, when they are being played by the AI, they should spawn like a mixture of a new civ and a reincarnated old civ from standard RFC. Perhaps a "latest spawn date", but also the chance to spawn earlier, given the right conditions. A period of vassalage to the motherland should also be part of that.
     
  15. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Well I was just thinking you could have a resource called "Indian Spices" which will be in India, Persia and the Khmer area, a resource called "American Spices" that would be near the Aztec lands, in Cuba, and in Brazil. Then there would be "Asian Spices" that would appear in China and the Islands around Australia.
    Basically this will be the same for each appropriate resource (things like Wheat, Iron, Gold, could be the same in all the world).
     
  16. micbic

    micbic Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,116
    Location:
    A bit N of 2 tiles W of Athenai
    Just to know: Which civs are considered as 'must be'?
    BTW: Voted for Austria (good expansion at Balkans, counterweight to Ottomans), India (at least at starts 1 and 2, ressurection possible to 3) and Persia (another Ottoman rival, tho only at starts 2 and 3)
     
  17. jessiecat

    jessiecat Divine Monarch

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    4,405
    Location:
    Cornwall, somewhere near England
    I agree with them. I also voted for Italy (spawning after 1850) and a North American Indian civ (Sioux, spawning after 1700 with horses?).
     
  18. kairob

    kairob Biohazard

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    3,082
    Location:
    The North
    @Panopticon - For Colonization, have a look at the link further up about building colonies instead of cities. Also I think something needs to be added to encourage the collection of resources. Maybe just changing the corps to appear earlier, or haveing multiple 'Trading Company' wonders giving extra benefits for collecting resources, I am not sure.

    About decolinisation, I quite like your ideas and if possible that is exactly what I would like to put in. Like for example Brazil would spawn between Year X and Year Y depending on the stability of the dominant power in the region. However this may not prove possible and if it is not then I might just give them a fixed date. However they will still in both situations begin as a vassal of whichever power owns the region.

    @micbic - The civs considered essential and not included in the list are: Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, HRE/Prussia/Germany, Russia, Ottomans, China, Japan and the USA.
     
  19. dagriggstar

    dagriggstar Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    550
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    I think Islam needs to be split up into Sunni and Shi'ite - To make sure Persia/Iran and the Ottomans aren't friends...

    Carthage = Morocco should you choose to have it. Though it isn't a pole option. I hear the ended the Songhai empire though which could be interesting... ;)

    On trading posts - why not use Corporations ?
     
  20. ZachScape

    ZachScape King

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    617
    Location:
    New York
    I am gone on vacation for two days and this thing exploded! (relatively)
    Anyway, I have a couple points after reading all this --- no specific order

    -Multiple religions should not be an issue considering Johny Smith's Rapture mod, but we should not go crazy. I think there should be two Christian religions because I don't think the Catholics and Orthodothics (sp?) had major issues in the 1500s (not too sure).

    -The Germanic nations should include:
    +HRE (non playable --- counterpart to RFCE's papal states)
    +Germany --- Prussia was indeed a major civilizations, but they had little area. They did not even have the chance to colonize, with the exception of a failed attempt at Venezuela. I think the German Unification is more appropriate as a starting date.
    +Austria --- (obvious)

    - @dagrigg --- I think Morocco would be a more appropriate UHV area (German control by 1911). It would have 2 cities most, right?... If it was a civ

    -There should be 3 South American countries IMO: Peru (Inca), Argentina, and Brazil. That would prevent overcrowding and allow more choices for civs.

    - @Lean - I think independents should be spawned like this: Certain civs should get a scripted 'random' event, saying citizens demand Emancipation (America), State Property (Russia/China), etc. Yes would cause a string of independents to spring up, no would cause unhappiness in some cities, but delay the problem.

    I'll have more eventually...
     

Share This Page