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Rhye's and Fall of Asia - Version 0.8

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by civ-addicted, Sep 4, 2011.

  1. civ-addicted

    civ-addicted Chieftain

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    Umm, art anyone? :)
    The main purpose of these maps is to clarify the more or less vague requirements for the few civs that have UHVs bound to a certain territory (like the Zhou map).
    i thought we were over this debate?
    Here's the deal (and please take it as serious as possible, because THIS IS NOT MOCKING): if you give me a LH name, a UP, UHVs, UB, UU (with the extra benefit would be best), i'll make a module to replace Butuan with Tondo. It's relativly little work, end it would finally settle this discussion.
     
  2. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    Played as Birma, game crashed in 1144 and 1148. Ideas?
     

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  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    I've always thought the Songtsen Gampo LH used here looks a little odd, and today I incidentally stumbled upon this LH (see attachment) used by the History Rewritten mod while datamining for a completely unrelated matter ;)

    I also like their choice of UB (also to be seen at that screenshot), by the way.
     
  4. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Ah, sorry :blush: Should be latest full version before reporting 'bugs'.
    But I have an excuse : I was looking forward to the mod that much, I couldn't resist to start playing immediately instead of downloading the patch first :p
     
  5. Baron03

    Baron03 Baron

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    Played as song and the tang collapsed into a bunch of city states. So I was left with the task of re uniting china
     
  6. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    :lol: Last time I checked the mod it says Tondo, not Butuan, so I thought you have just renamed it without moving to the right spot. I am fine with Butuan, if our fellow civ players from Philippines are happy as well ;)
     
  7. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    So I've decided to stop sending playtesting feedback in piecemeal and give you a big one instead.
    • Harappans: biggest challenge lies in fending off Mauryans and Indo-Greeks with inferior units, all in all well balanced. Barb Nomads never go for cities, only for improvements and stray units, which is a pain bc Shaman Warriors are not strong enough against them. Maybe nerf them to 3str?
    • Zhou: I failed this one repeatedly (either got raped by Qin or didn't get a GA plus the cities in time) until I realized I had to be very creative.
      Spoiler :
      Found Qi on turn 3 at the coast between wheat and later-to-be copper. had to beeline Taoism and Confucianism bc Harappa takes 'em right away if you don't. Then get caste system and run two artists for a GA, get Bronze for Heavy Footmen just right in time to fend off Qin, in between found two more cities (first Teng to the North, between later-to-be iron and another wheat and fish resource, later Xi to the south.
    • Qin: No problems here.
    • Yuezhi/Tocharians: The LH does not seem quite perfect, but I guess there's just no better one around. Anyway, no problems here, either. I had to go to war against Indo-Greeks, Gokturks and Tang (DoW sometime after I built a city near their border). The Hephtalite incursion was a failure. They did absolutely nothing to the Indo-Greeks, but they went after my improvements and workers instead. They never seemed to attack any cities. If you can make the barbs guarantee to take the Samarkand area from the Indo-Greeks, you might reintroduce a time limit to the 3rd UHV to make it more challenging. The city name map seems a bit off. I razed Qomul and refound it later, but the city was given a wrong name.
    • Indo-Greeks: Canceled due to buggy UHV#1. Should be ok, once fixed, though.
    • Mauryans: No problems here, either, although it's not been entirely clear what counts as Persia (took Kandahar and got it - but originally I thought I had to go as far as Sogdiana). Not sure if the city names in Persia are all right.
    • Chola: It's been a while since I played them on an older version. They were ok except I found it annoying that I couldn't raze any cities due to the UP.
    • Vietnamese: I have yet to win this one on the easiest difficulty. I was able to keep up techwise with Tang due to espionage, but they still outgrew me and I never could cripple them bc I had to keep my military back to keep the Khmer at bay. Guess I've got to try again and again, but I dare say the UHV is already hard and probably unrealistic on higher difficulty levels.
    • Han: With the new version I inherited a giga-empire off the bat, so the rest was ok. I only converted Vietnam initially. Korea was collapsed (by indies?) and I never reached Japan. Guess I lucked out on the religion spread there. I made the mistake of accepting Khmer as vassals so some other civs were worried about me and wouldn't easily convert.
    • Korea: Hanyang did not flipped which can be a bugger when sometimes you encounter a stack powerful enough to defeat your starting units. Happened to me twice. Otherwise, I had to tech-rush and build explorers, ships and science facilities. Constant war with Japan meant sinking most of the ships I needed on my doorstep - very convenient. Too bad my nothernmost city flipped to Jurchen. I think the coast of the Sea of Japan should not be included in their core since they came from the inland).
    • Japanese: The UHV is very innovative, but I'm not sure if it's not bugged. E.g. are indie/barb cities included in the count as well? One time I failed the 1st UHV, reloaded and used WB to place explorers on every city on the map owned by a major civ. Still failed. I think 90% is still too ambitious for the following reasons: a) Explorers are most reliable at scouting, but they can't enter indie territory. If they do, they get killed. That's why you can't reach the farthest places of the map. b) Spies get detected a lot of times, even when they are not standing on a city tile. c) Using espionage points seems the way to go, but it only reveals cities if you've already visited the territory. If a civ founds any new cities, they are not revealed. I think in SoI (maybe due to SuperSpies), this is fixed. Would be good in here, too. On the other hand, I have yet to use the lots of Great Spies I spawn for scouting, although it certainly feels wrong not to use them for teching.
    • Chalyuka: Canceled due to buggy UHV#3. Theoretically I had it, though.
    • Gokturks: Impossible with the current Hephtalite failure against Indo-Greeks and Yuezhi. You are dependent on free initial conquests from barbs to get a bigger empire than any Chinese dynasty. Strangely I also failed the scouting UHv even though I had almost every corner on the Asian landmass visited by those sweet Turkic raiders. Their city naming seems completely random.
    • Khmer: Done on an earlier version. Currently not possible due to crash on the last turn of autoplay.
    • Tibet: There seems to be a scripted collapse of Maurya on the 2nd turn after autoplay. The 1st UHV is potentially broken. I have attached a save file in which I used WB to cover the entire Tibetan plateau with culture and erased all cities with potential influence into Tibet (Yarkand, Pataliputra, Chengdu). Still failed. The rest shouldn't be a problem. I think the barb Khampa horsemen are unnecessary, though. Or Tibet should start with composite bowmen instead of archers.
    • Tang: Canceled due to UHV#2 bug. Should be ok, though. Chola might be a competitor for the tech lead.
    • Sri Vijaya: No problems here.
    • Nanzhao: The conquest UHV is too easy. You only have to conquer the small core and Vietnam is usually already unstable and so is Tibet due to barb Khampas which they can't defend against in the long run. I suggest changing the UHV to make it either one of those plus Birma (they can be formidable) or all three mandatory. 1300 might be a timer for the religious UHV.
    • Birma: I did this before on an earlier version without the later spawn of Siam. This time I easily got the 1st UHV (easily ran over Khmer at the start to get 4 good production cities quickly), but my games always crashed 1140ish after meeting the Ghorids. Save file attached.
    • Song: Civ no complete - no test.
    • Ghaznavids: No good strategy yet to even all these artists in such a short time. Again, barb Sogdiana for a quick initial grab seems necessary. All this culture-mongering is too one-sided for my taste. You only choke your own cities growth and production after your intial build-up. There should be something different, either conquest- or trade-related. Furthermore, they do not seem to rename some cities properly. In SoI, which I deem very accurate, Ghazna is more eastern than Kandahar and Balkh. Also they should not be called Samanid people initially. The Samanids were no people but a Persion dynasty of nobles which was surpassed by the Ghaznavids. "Afghan people" or "people of Ghazni" would be more appropriate.
    • Tondo: Seem ok until I meet Ming and my game crahes.
    • Jurchen/Jin: Where does Northern China end? Does it include North Korea? From my save game, what's missing?
    • Ghorids: If they start in Delhi and not on the Hindu Kush, they should be called Sultanate of Delhi, but may still start out as "people of Ghor" or "Afghan people", too. I found spreading Islam difficult bc hardly anybody wanted to open borders with me. The game crahed again upon contact with Ming. I also don't like their UP. It should auto-spread Islam to a conquered city, but not remove the existing ones. Looks especially awkward on holy cities.
    • Mongols: see Song.
    • Siam: 90 years to conquer everything east of India and south of China? No can do, my friend - not without even more starting units or a road down to Kota Gelanggi. And when I WB'd such a total conquest, I still didn't get the UHV.
    • Majapahit: After a long time of loading I wanted to rage-quit immediately when almost all my initial naval units got destroyed by Orang Laut on the first turn. And without reign over the sea, I could not colonize any place and the Bugis warriors were useless against Sri Vijayan bowmen. So the Majapahit need to be buffed in their capability to expand quickly. And with all these small islands to colonize, some mouseover info on their names would be helpful. I forgot to mention that I played on until I got into contact with Ming when...
    • Ming: (edit) Game froze on the first turn of autoplay (467 to go).
    Note that I played everything on viceroy to check for playability. I consider myself a slightly-above-average RFC player and if I repeatedly fail at UHVs at this difficulty level, I'd say something's wrong about them.

    All in all, I love the Asian setting and the mod has already gone far, though I don't quite see it ready yet for v1.0.

    Some more general stuff:
    • I was able to build embassies of my own civ and of eliminated civs (e.g. Tang).
    • I had to get used to using populations sacrifice again. I guess most players will be inclined to use it until very late after Agricultural Tools and Water Power. By the way, I love the fact that you can build water mills in forest and jungles. The entire tech tree is a gem.
    • But map trading should come much earlier.
    • As I have mentioned, barbs are stupid in general. They should behave more aggressively against civs.
    • Warfare is somewhat awkward. It's much more difficult to be on the offensive because defensive units are a lot stronger in this mod. Trebs hardly cut it against composite archers and they are useless against bowmen and cannoniers. Bombards come too late to be useful. Atm there is no counter to promoted bowmen, which hampers conquest to much imo. Fighting in SE Asia is even more difficult because defenders get huge bonuses on almost every tile due to all the jungle, which also negates any promotions. Either siege weapons should be stronger or easier to mass-produce, or mid-to-late archery units should be nerfed.
    • I know I have been spoiled by the high design standards of Sword of Islam and I don't expect every other mod to follow them. Nevertheless I'd like to encourage some nice little things that stem from there: Civ-specific dawn of man texts, UHV progress monitoring in the advisory screen, extended map information for newborn civs, mouseover tooltip info on territory name and stability rating.

    Great work all in all. I hope my feedback proves useful.
     

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  8. Civciv5

    Civciv5 Grand Emperor

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    Mongol Empire has no victory goals,it says something like:"Mongol Victory UHV 1"?
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    It seems that the barbarians have a problem in this mod (somehow I think the game doesn't treat them as barbarians at all). I suggest you take a look at your "number of civs" constants in Defines.h, because the CvPlayer.isBarbarian() method depends on it and if it returns false, it would explain many issues, including your problem of being at peace with them.

    Have you tried to spawn their units with a more sensible unit AI, like UNITAI_CITY_ATTACK?
     
  10. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    So I did Chola again, too. They're rather easy, but the OB UHV did not check in 1040.
    (edit) I'd also like to mention that it was still possible to squat out Birma. As you can see from the save file, I found Pagan 1W. They still flipped the city, but started without units and techs.
     

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  11. Civciv5

    Civciv5 Grand Emperor

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    Why are there so few ivory resources in South East Asia?There is one in Vietnam and none in Cambodia and Myanmar and one in Thailand!
     
  12. civ-addicted

    civ-addicted Chieftain

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    :think: not at all, frankly. There are those random crashes once in a while which i really don't have any idea about.:(
    We always had the Dalai Lama as the Tibetian LH (with glasses though) and v0.7 was the first version the current one, and i don't want to go back to the old. I don't really like the painted-on eyebrows and beard, so i either have to fix the current one, or i'm going to make a Songtsen for myself. The UB is fine imo, and especially useful for the first UHV.
    Don't worry, i see that as a compliment;)
    I thought it was necessary to exclue Song from the civil war mechanic for balancing issues, but they are in again. Also, i just made UHVs for Song, but i couldn't finish the game because the game froze when i tried to contact one of my neighbours...I don't come to play the late game at all, and that is the first time i saw this.
    :eek: It sure does.
    Thanks, that's just great. The barbs are doing somewhat what i want on Monarch, and the few times i played on Viceroy, Harappans for example always survives due to low barb pressure; that's going to be fixed in the Beta.
    That's because they don't have any at all. I seen how few work coding UHVs actually is, so that's something that can be done today...
    Thanks! I'll definitly take a look at it.
    Why do you people always try to cheat?:)
    Chola will get an overhaul, with a trade-related UHV instead of the current OB UHV, and another UP, like the one from RFC++'s Serbia. I proposed that like a year ago, and i think that Morholt stole my idea:lol: Not sure though, and i don't want to start any rumors...;)
    I think there are enough. If you want Ivory really badly, they're giving you a reason to fight (i just remember that song:love:), and for those civs that end up controlling all of SE Asia, they would get an unessecary advantage, because Ivory is still as valueable as Iron for trading.
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth 古典部の会員 Moderator

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    The wrong defines could also be the reason for the current crashes. I suspect you forgot to increase one of them when you added Siam.
     
  14. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    I honestly did not intend to squat. I just wanted to make sure they would not found Pagan off the coast and flip my city regulary for me to conquer it later.

    News: Lucky Sunday! I succeeded with Vietnam. Things went just right for me. I popped two settlers from huts, had Khmer vassalize to me, Buddhism spread early, Han surpassing Tang and I stole all their techs, plus got the free tech wonder. In the end I was about 100 points ahead of Indo-Greeks, followed by Han.

    More general feedback:
    • I feel there are not enough buildings that give specialists (except for spies). University and Academy should definitely give scientists, and currently only Markets give merchants.
    • There should be scripted spreads of Islam into Persia (which should also get Zoroastrianism), Punjab and Sindh from 800ish on, later into SE Asia and the islands and along the Silk Road into Western China. The Hephtalites should also bring Buddhism into Bactria.
    • One thing I also like about SoI is the fact that most civs start with a state religion and some civics set. That usually reduces initial anarchy to just 1 turn for some minor adjustments, which is nice. I think 1-2 turn of initial anarchy is ok, but in this mod it's usually 3 - 2 for changing civics and 1 to convert to some religion.
    • Indies are pretty active in this mod. I've seen them build wonders, scout and sometimes be aggressive towards civs. Is that ok?
     
  15. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I disagree that buildings should add more specialists. I think there are too many. (Especially artist slots) In general, the buildings are to strong.

    BTW, the Exchange also gives 2 merchant slots. So the Market isn't the only building that provides merchant slots. ;)
     
  16. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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  17. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    I agree that there are a lot of buildings that give relly huge bonuses, especially to culture and science. I forgot about the exchange, although it comes pretty late. Guess if I want to run a lot of merchants, I stick with the civic that's made for that. You don't seem to disagree on the slots for sciencists, though, do you, Merijn?

    Report about Japan:
    Au contraire to what I said earlier, UHV#1 is not broken, but really hard to keep track of. UHV#2 and #3 are broken, though. I was way past 60000 esp points in 1330, but I failed that goal. What's even more strange is that I was already at 2/3 with the 5 Islands (Does Honshu itself count?), but got reset to 1/3. See for yourselves. I attached a save.
     

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  18. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    No, I also think Universities should provide scientist slot. I never understand why it didn't have them in the vanilla game.
     
  19. 2phunkey4u

    2phunkey4u West-Eastern Divan

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    Got a good start as Göktürks with barb Sogdiana and Yuezhi crippled as desired, so I could use the horsemen for both scouting and conquest and got the 2/3. The game crashed in 1028 1 turn after the collapse of the Indo-Greeks. Note the Ghaznavid SoD en route to China through my territory.
     

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  20. civ-addicted

    civ-addicted Chieftain

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    I found out that it's not caused by Defines.h because i got an instant crash; but i'm still pretty sure that it's in the DLL. I got a problem that Mongols spawned on turn 1 with 1 :beaker: tech cost each; i switched some defines, and i'm pretty sure that Ming worked before that "fix". I wanted to try to recreate that state but my inner child wanted to make something more fun:sad:
    You see? Challenge completed:p
    A lucky Sunday indeed; i finally made that resurrections work again. And the fix didn't take longer than 5 minutes to find.
    It's like i'm finally getting good at this:mischief:
    - I never saw that problem, because i happen to use Caste System as often as possible. I think some more slots won't hurt though, especially in the early and mid game. I'll try to fit one or two artists and scientists somewhere.
    - There is some scripted religion spread: when Camel Archers resp. Rajput Infantry conquer a city, they spread Islam resp. Hinduism while removing everything else. It happens...sometimes. I plan on tuning it a bit so you see more often.
    - I wanted to do that, but just for the really late civs. Frankly, i dislike this feature in RFCE and SoI because i feel that the coder thinks i'm not cappable of finding the right solution for myself (that's possibly a personal thing). The anarchy at the start don't hurt too much and still belong to a normal CIV game.
    It's often that the late civs don't know what they're doing if it comes to religion, and that is frankly the only point i see in pre-setting civics.
    - If you think of the independants as the Kingdom of Ajmer, the Kingdom of Gujarat, Funan, the early Jin and Sui dynasties, it's fair to make them strong and bi*chy.
    Looks good, but i'm think we're fine with LHs. I suspect that the LH switch ingame causes some troubles, so i disabled that for now, and since there aren't enough LHs for all civs (which i like), i don't think we need that feature at all.
    Thanks, i fixed it. You need 65000 esp points (never updated the text though:blush:), and when you fail, it unchecks UHV no.2
    That's one good spot to place a scientist slot:)
    A collapse? :think: Those semi-random crashes really are getting on my nerves. I know that it was more or less fine before i moved Khmer back, but i can't comprehend what possibly could have caused that.
     

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