Rhye's of Europe Civ Discussion Thread

[jessiecat]

Ohhh, well I thought it was refering to the Palacio de Generalife because of the picture when you build it, that's the same picture on wikipedia for it. Haha sorry.

Anyway, are we gonna do the 910 start next version?

As I said in earlier posts (1586 and 1588), I support the 910 start at Leon, flipping A Coruna with one settler, and Cordoba starting as normal but getting unstable after Portugal spawns.

Sorry about the misunderstanding over the Gardens. Think of it as similiar to Leonardo's Inventions or Magna Carta, as a wonder representing an advancement rather than a particular city.

 

[ZachScape]

I meant for Spain. Spain will spawn in 910 AD. Did you read any of the earlier posts? I agree that starting the mod at 910 is insane and ridiculous... haha

Nah, I didn't read them. I was actually surprised to see this mourning that this wasn't the RFCE Playtesting Feedback Thread . But I'm just saying for a next production/same map opportunity. RFCE started with a post of: Hey! Europe is where it's at.

 

[MizhGun]

Some words and suggestions on improving the mod concerning Kievan Rus
[based on release of 26 May]
It would be nice to:
- change purple colour of Kievan Rus to white or red
- make a multiplayer version of the mod
- replace Taganrog (now it’s in Zaporozhe) and Astrakhan (now it’s on Don) to their appropriate locations
- add Central Russian Upland to the map
- expand map to
a) the Urals or even to India
b) North America to show its colonization
c) the Caucasus and north shore of the Caspian Sea with independent Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan spawn gradually
- add Novgorod as a playable civ
- add Chernigov and Galitsko-Volyn as well as Vladimir-Suzdal duchy as independent states for later spawn Grand Duchy of Moscow to expand
- shift Moscow spawn date from 1323 to 1147 (Moscow’s found date) to have some time for a player to forcejoin the nearby independent states to Grand Duchy of Moscow instead of peaceful joining of them.
- add nomads as it released in warlords scenario “Genghis Rhan” as barbs for Slavic areas and Byzantium, like in RFC: celts for western Europe, zulu imps for Afrika and dog soldiers for America.
- remove Korsun from the Crimea
- add unique galley “Ladia” and unique Slavic axeman to all Slavic duchies.

PSYX and some other folks from civfanatics.ru can help editing the mod as well as adding Russian fonts to the mod, can draw flags for new civs and independent states, provide historical info for Kievan Rus units and nomads roaming in vicinity of these lands, with toponymy and outfit of units as well.

 

[PSYX]

Some information about civ: "Kyivan Rus" - cities

Kyivan names:

Bilgorod (980), Biloozero (862 ?), Vasylkiv (988), Vyshgorod (946), Ovruch (977), Izborsk (862), Korosten (945), Kyiv (880 ?), Ladoga (862), Liubech (882), Murom (862), Novgorod (859), Peresichen (922), Peremyshl (980), Pereyaslavl (907), Polotsk (862), Pskov (903), Roden (980 ?), Rostov (862), Smolensk (863 ?), Turiv (980), Cherven (981), Chernihiv (907), Protolche (Zaporizhzhya) (end of 10 century, 1103 ?)

Moskowian names:

Bilgorod - Belgorod,
Biloozero - Beloozero,
Vasylkiv - Vasilev,
Ovruch - Vruchy
Korosten - Iskorosten,
Kyiv - Kiev,
Peresichen - Peresechen,
Turiv - Turov,
Chernihiv - Chernigov

Poland names:

Peremyshl - Przemyśl

Notes:
? - inexact dates
(...) - the dates of foundation

I can add this cities to CityNameHelper_v12

 

[3Miro]

Some words and suggestions on improving the mod concerning Kievan Rus
[based on release of 26 May]
It would be nice to:
- change purple colour of Kievan Rus to white or red
- make a multiplayer version of the mod
- replace Taganrog (now it’s in Zaporozhe) and Astrakhan (now it’s on Don) to their appropriate locations
- add Central Russian Upland to the map
- expand map to
a) the Urals or even to India
b) North America to show its colonization
c) the Caucasus and north shore of the Caspian Sea with independent Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan spawn gradually
- add Novgorod as a playable civ
- add Chernigov and Galitsko-Volyn as well as Vladimir-Suzdal duchy as independent states for later spawn Grand Duchy of Moscow to expand
- shift Moscow spawn date from 1323 to 1147 (Moscow’s found date) to have some time for a player to forcejoin the nearby independent states to Grand Duchy of Moscow instead of peaceful joining of them.
- add nomads as it released in warlords scenario “Genghis Rhan” as barbs for Slavic areas and Byzantium, like in RFC: celts for western Europe, zulu imps for Afrika and dog soldiers for America.
- remove Korsun from the Crimea
- add unique galley “Ladia” and unique Slavic axeman to all Slavic duchies.

PSYX and some other folks from civfanatics.ru can help editing the mod as well as adding Russian fonts to the mod, can draw flags for new civs and independent states, provide historical info for Kievan Rus units and nomads roaming in vicinity of these lands, with toponymy and outfit of units as well.

Sorry, but most of what you suggest would not be implemented. We are doing a mod about medieval Europe and nothing outside of Europe would be put in (you can try RFC for a mod covering all of Earth).

- I will look at the colors, those were chosen so that civs can be easily distinguished.
- A multilayer version of the mod is not on the "todo" list. It is nearly impossible to balance under the circumstances and is just too much work.
- The map will not be expanded beyond what it covers now, however, we constantly make updates to the terrain and city names. Coordinate those with micbic.
- According to Wikipedia, Novogorod was independent from 1136AD to 1478AD. It is a relatively short period. Other civs would be included first (if any new civs are included). This will not happen soon.
- We will look at the Moscow spawn date.
- Adding Celt and Native type of players wouldn't help the mod. "Nomadic" nations were never centralized, they consisted of several independent cities and thus are best described as independent.

Again, thanks for the suggestions, but most of what you suggest is not meant to be part of this mod. If you have detailed modifications to the city name maps, or the list of independents, please coordinate those with use. We will incorporate then in the mod. If you have observations on the gamaplay, share those as well.

 

[jessiecat]

Double post. See below.

 

[jessiecat]

Nice to see you back. I take it you'll be issuing the next versions from now on. Aside from balance considerations there are a couple of things on the to-do list I'd like to address.
1. The Mongol invasions seem overpowered, affecting not only the Kievans and Moscow but Bulgaria and several more. I'm sure we meant them as colourful events not decisive game-stoppers. The same applies to the barbs in Britain, as I posted earlier. Too many for far too long IMO.
2. The issue of points or other incentives for colony-building needs addressing. I'd like to see a similiar score-boost for each colony or project built much as we get points for wonder-building. This might help those players who like long games and score victories.
3. I brought up the issue of culturally-flavoured units recently and suggested some possible art for the Muslim civs elsewhere in these threads. Could you look again at the feasibility of coding this? If it's easy enough we might be able to move on to the Ottomans and Eastern European units as well.
4. There are some better leaderheads in the downloads database. Maybe we can use some of them. As for flags can I suggest we restore the previous Cordoban flag so it matches their button and give their present flag to the Arabs to replace the palm tree we got from CFC?
5. The Crusades events seem pretty lame so far. The human player has no incentive to take part in them and no reward for capturing Jerusalem. Surely we can make them more interesting?
6. The role of the Papacy is still pretty much undeveloped, I know. Will we be looking at more interaction with the Pope and the player similiar to the AP in RFC, ie congresses or Papal Bulls or something? And please stop the Pope from demanding my cities every time I build one.

 

[PSYX]

3Miro

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8157059

I was added topic for adding information and materials from civfanatics.ru

Also, I can add one suggestion, to rename Kiev - to Kyiv. Becouse, Kyiv - is a historical and ukrainian name. Kiev - russian name of Kyiv.

 

[merijn_v1]

Some words and suggestions on improving the mod concerning Kievan Rus
[based on release of 26 May]
It would be nice to:
- change purple colour of Kievan Rus to white or red
- make a multiplayer version of the mod
- replace Taganrog (now it’s in Zaporozhe) and Astrakhan (now it’s on Don) to their appropriate locations
- add Central Russian Upland to the map
- expand map to
a) the Urals or even to India
b) North America to show its colonization
c) the Caucasus and north shore of the Caspian Sea with independent Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan spawn gradually
- add Novgorod as a playable civ
- add Chernigov and Galitsko-Volyn as well as Vladimir-Suzdal duchy as independent states for later spawn Grand Duchy of Moscow to expand
- shift Moscow spawn date from 1323 to 1147 (Moscow’s found date) to have some time for a player to forcejoin the nearby independent states to Grand Duchy of Moscow instead of peaceful joining of them.
- add nomads as it released in warlords scenario “Genghis Rhan” as barbs for Slavic areas and Byzantium, like in RFC: celts for western Europe, zulu imps for Afrika and dog soldiers for America.
- remove Korsun from the Crimea
- add unique galley “Ladia” and unique Slavic axeman to all Slavic duchies.

The MOD isn't finished yet. So that's the first thing we want. Then we may create a MP version.
For the map expansion:
Why so far to the east. India isn't a part of Europe. So what European Civ would you place their?
America isn't either a part of Europe. The colonies are projects now.
Those mountains are also to far from Europe. And if they are their, no-one would ever settle their. It's useless. And the loading time will be much longer. And it's already so long.

Novgorod a playable Civ?
I don't know much about Russia, but we already have 2 Russian civs. We have almost too many Civs. And it would be too much coding and it would destroy the Moscowian gameplay.

The MOD start in 500AD. The Celts are destroyed then. And the map stays just Europe IMO.

If those new Slavic UU's comes, all other parts should get some UU's. So IMO that isn't a good idea.

 

[Michael Vick]

Some words and suggestions on improving the mod concerning Kievan Rus
[based on release of 26 May]
It would be nice to:
- change purple colour of Kievan Rus to white or red
- make a multiplayer version of the mod
- replace Taganrog (now it’s in Zaporozhe) and Astrakhan (now it’s on Don) to their appropriate locations
- add Central Russian Upland to the map
- expand map to
a) the Urals or even to India
b) North America to show its colonization
c) the Caucasus and north shore of the Caspian Sea with independent Baku, Tbilisi and Yerevan spawn gradually
- add Novgorod as a playable civ
- add Chernigov and Galitsko-Volyn as well as Vladimir-Suzdal duchy as independent states for later spawn Grand Duchy of Moscow to expand
- shift Moscow spawn date from 1323 to 1147 (Moscow’s found date) to have some time for a player to forcejoin the nearby independent states to Grand Duchy of Moscow instead of peaceful joining of them.
- add nomads as it released in warlords scenario “Genghis Rhan” as barbs for Slavic areas and Byzantium, like in RFC: celts for western Europe, zulu imps for Afrika and dog soldiers for America.
- remove Korsun from the Crimea
- add unique galley “Ladia” and unique Slavic axeman to all Slavic duchies.

PSYX and some other folks from civfanatics.ru can help editing the mod as well as adding Russian fonts to the mod, can draw flags for new civs and independent states, provide historical info for Kievan Rus units and nomads roaming in vicinity of these lands, with toponymy and outfit of units as well.

Uh oh... the Russians are here...

Most of this sounds like it would belong in a mod called RFC Russia. One thing though, I do like the slavic axemen idea. If England gets y art for THEIR barbarians why not Russia?
I came here to discuss Spain though, as you might have guessed. I think there was a misunderstanding in the terrain design changes made to the Madrid area. The few tiles above Madrid should be forested hills, not the plains we have now. I looked back at my last screenshots I posted right before the new release and it appears the second time I made it I put plains there. I'm sorry, this is incorrect. If for next version you could refer to the very first screenshot I made of the area...

 

[MizhGun]

The MOD isn't finished yet. So that's the first thing we want. Then we may create a MP version.

First of all I'd like to say that I was asked to sum up the ideas expressed by russian-speaking folks from civfanatics.ru and post them in this thread for modmakers in English thus I don't share all of these ideas

For the map expansion:
Why so far to the east. India isn't a part of Europe. So what European Civ would you place their?

Russia of course It's an old russian dream to wash boots in the Indian Ocean

America isn't either a part of Europe. The colonies are projects now.

farewell Alaska

Those mountains are also to far from Europe.

the Urals separate Europe from Asia - so what lies to the west is all Europe!

And if they are their, no-one would ever settle their. It's useless. And the loading time will be much longer. And it's already so long.

Agree

Novgorod a playable Civ?
I don't know much about Russia, but we already have 2 Russian civs. We have almost too many Civs. And it would be too much coding and it would destroy the Moscowian gameplay.

Alexander Nevsky from Novgorod defeated Swedes on Neva (after the battle he was named Nevsky) and few years later drowned Teutons in the lake. Novgorod was a real power in the region in that times.

 

[Samsa]

farewell Alaska

Actually i like the idea, and we should implement Alaska as a colony. If u can tell us what Alaska provided Can't think of anything else then Fur

the Urals separate Europe from Asia - so what lies to the west is all Europe!

There are different definitions about the borders of europe and no single one is fully accredited. And this mod is closest to the "von Strahlenberg" definition, the most widely used one. So i think we should stay like this. Anyhow expanding the map east to the Ural, won't affect the gameplay at all. Moscowian russia has a huge land to settle and no other civ will go there anyway.

 

[3Miro]

MizhGun, ideas are always welcome, however, most of those cover history or geography that is beyond the scope of the mod.

We actually do need help with the Russias. I don't think people have tested Kiev sufficiently and we have had almost no feedback on Moscow's gameplay. Someone just mentioned that on the last version, Moscow is unplayable.

Also, could you guys look at the city name maps, I for one don't trust a city name map unless it has been done/updated by someone who lives in the region.

 

[jessiecat]

MizhGun, ideas are always welcome, however, most of those cover history or geography that is beyond the scope of the mod.

We actually do need help with the Russias. I don't think people have tested Kiev sufficiently and we have had almost no feedback on Moscow's gameplay. Someone just mentioned that on the last version, Moscow is unplayable.

Also, could you guys look at the city name maps, I for one don't trust a city name map unless it has been done/updated by someone who lives in the region.

While I haven't yet tested Moscow since the new spawn date, I have tested Kiev 4 or 5 times since the Mongol hordes were increased. I haven't been able to survive on any occasion, whatever I tried. In every recent game playing as an other civ the AI Kiev and Bulgaria have always been wiped out. In my last game even the Ottomans collapsed. The Mongols are too strong and too numerous, as I've said before.

 

[3Miro]

While I haven't yet tested Moscow since the new spawn date, I have tested Kiev 4 or 5 times since the Mongol hordes were increased. I haven't been able to survive on any occasion, whatever I tried. In every recent game playing as an other civ the AI Kiev and Bulgaria have always been wiped out. In my last game even the Ottomans collapsed. The Mongols are too strong and too numerous, as I've said before.

Mongols and other barbs have been nerfed for the next version.

 

[jessiecat]

Mongols and other barbs have been nerfed for the next version.

Hurrah! What has struck me as particularly absurd is their strength (12/2), almost that of a knight, while their contemporary equivalents (Konnik 5/3), (Huszar 7/3), (Berber cav 7/3) are much weaker. Even the Arab Ghazi UU (9/3) is at a disadvantage. They should be weighted at no more than 9/2 IMO. That would mean that defending with guisarmes and arbalests would give the player some real chance of survival.

 

[3Miro]

Hurrah! What has struck me as particularly absurd is their strength (12/2), almost that of a knight, while their contemporary equivalents (Konnik 5/3), (Huszar 7/3), (Berber cav 7/3) are much weaker. Even the Arab Ghazi UU (9/3) is at a disadvantage. They should be weighted at no more than 9/2 IMO. That would mean that defending with guisarmes and arbalests would give the player some real chance of survival.

Don't get so exited, I only nerfed the Mongols and did not remove them

The Kheshiks are still very powerful (12/2), however, they are fewer. Historically Kiev was destroyed by the Mongols and both Bulgaria and Hungary suffered from them. The way they used to be, Mongols would get all of Ukraine + All of the Balkans + Constantinople + half of Asia Minor, which is ridiculous. Now they would get Kiev.

I am now playing a very good game with Moscow, Kiev was Mongolian and for the first few turns I used all of my Boyars to reclaim Ukraine. Very historically accurate!

 

[Wessel V1]

I've tried to rate (most of) the civs, suggestions are welcome. I used this list to evaluate the ratings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322753
I've also based the ratings on an average style. If the AI seriously messes things up, then it's not yet on the list.

Spoiler :

Burgundy:

Trade: 2 Burgundy has access to one or 2 sea ports, and some lands to build towns. They have enough resources to trade. Maintenence costs are very high though, which is an important issue in the first centuries.
Production: 4 Lots of productive resources around the capital. The Rhone valley and Toulouse are rather productive too. Important note: all cities can become productive with towns and levees. I've left that part out now.
Culture: 4 Because of it's resourceful capital, even better if you settle Besancon, which is SSW, you can get some early wonders. The UP is also powerful for new cities, so I'd give culture 4 or even 5 stars.
Growth: 2 Large cities are possible, when the entire valley has farms. Otherwise, the cities stay small. There is not much room for expansion either, you won't get much farther than Barcino, Milan and maybe somewhere between Germany and France.
Starting situation: 2 There are some dangerous neighbours very close: Germany and France. The other things seem to be fine, so 2 stars is reasonable.
Overall: 14

Byzantium
Trade: 2 Byzantium has large penalties, although there are some possibilities for them to do a decent job. Especially Constantinopolis means a lot to them.
Production: 2 Raw production is not bad, but the modifiers are annoying. It's the same story as above: Constantinopolis is the important city.
Culture: 4 An early religion, early wonders, Byzantium has it all. However, 4 stars because it's hard to construct all cultural buildings in time because of the poor production.
Growth: 1 It takes ages to grow the cities. Anatolia lacks food, and the magical penalties strike again. Don't even try to expand, the cities flip away as soon as you build them, which is a complete waste of the many hammers that you've wasted to build a settler. The only positive note is Constantinopolis (again), that is soon limited by hapiness and health caps.
Starting situation: 5 Yes, 5 stars here. I think this is one of the most arguable decisions, that will have to be corrected but this is my opinion. Nothings seems to be wrong when you start; even better, you seem to be a world power. Normalized score says everything, 100,000 points for winning this turn.
Overall: 14

France:
Trade: 4 France has access to multiple Atlantic ports. They have lot's of good land, and some resources to trade as well.
Production: 3 Paris has high capabilities, but the other cities that you don't have to conquer are not that good for production. Maybe 2 stars is better but it's still very possible to conquer the territory needed to get a high production.
Culture: 3 The same deal about the wonders, but France doesn't have the same UP. So, three stars is what they get.
Growth: 4 France can hold large, wealthy cities. New territories can be conquered easily thanks to the UP.
Starting situation: 3 France has a decent situation. There is some barbarian pressure, Burgundy can declare war early, England can get a food on your land but these things are not so terrifying.
Overall: 17

That's it for now. More will come tomorrow, as it's now 11.10 PM here. Please make suggestions to the list, I'll keep it updated.

 

[3Miro]

I've tried to rate (most of) the civs, suggestions are welcome. I used this list to evaluate the ratings: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=322753
I've also based the ratings on an average style. If the AI seriously messes things up, then it's not yet on the list.

That's it for now. More will come tomorrow, as it's now 11.10 PM here. Please make suggestions to the list, I'll keep it updated.

Looks reasonable to me.

One note. People make a lot of comments on the penalties especially for the Byzantines. Tweaking those penalties for our mod is many times easier compared to regular RFC. This is one place where our mod stands out. Pretty much anyone with a text editor should be able to tweak those.

In RFCEurope\Assets\Python, there is a file RFCEBalance.py. You can open this files with NotePad, WordPad or TextPad (the last one would be my choice, but the other two should work just fine). Then you can edit the file and change some numbers to see what effect those would have on gameplay.

A typical modifiers line looks like:

gc.setGrowthModifiers(iByzantium, 300, 100, 150, 100, 100, 2 )

If you change that to

gc.setGrowthModifiers(iByzantium, 150, 100, 150, 100, 100, 2 )

Byzantine cities would grow 2 times faster. There are comments that explain what each number means.

Give it a try.

 

[micbic]

@WesselV1: I would make Burgundy's starting situation to 3, since it has the time to get a good slice of land before the Germans spawn (even better, building Basle and Fribourg in time means that they have a well-secured eastern border with them)