Rhye's of Europe Religion Discussion Thread

[Sian]

if anything, then they should rather get unhappiness from say ... house of wisdom (arguing that its there the learned is 'hanging out') for the resources in question

 

[Michael Vick]

What about Pagan Lithuania? Shouldn't they be able to build breweries?

I think it is safe to say that all Muslim countries in the mod had enough of a Christian population to still get benefit from the resources despite being "forbidden" for the Muslims.

For the Brewery, we may change the Brewery to some sort of Winery for the southern nations (Spain, Portugal and the two Italians), but I do feel like we would be knit picking. Tailoring the buildings specifically to the culture of each individual civ is a bit too much. Some general considerations like the UB and religious specific buildings are good, but looking at every single building is a bit too much work.

What about having both breweries and wineries, with the same benefit, one requiring wine, the other barley. Then we give Burgundy a different UB with a with the same benefit. Everybody wins, the Germanic civs win get a slight bonus because of their access to both buildings.

 

[3Miro]

What about having both breweries and wineries, with the same benefit, one requiring wine, the other barley. Then we give Burgundy a different UB with a with the same benefit. Everybody wins, the Germanic civs win get a slight bonus because of their access to both buildings.

We used to have a Brewery like building that gave a bonus form both Wine and Barley, but we scrapped it because we already have too much happiness. If we were to add more happiness, we should offset it by removing happiness from someplace else.

 

[Michael Vick]

Currently the brewery gives +1 happiness with and extra 1 for barley. I'm saying two different buildings that give +1 happiness each. Only +1, no bonus for the resource, it's required. If you need that other happiness badly, conquer or trade.

 

[Michael Vick]

But then which building is required for inn? I say scrap the inn because IMO buildings like that give the mod a "too much" feeling. There are a lot buildings with very small benefits.

Then Brewery gives +1 happiness, +1happiness for barley
The Inn gives +10% and -x war unhappiness

Here is my proposal. Get rid of the inn, and:

Winery: (Requires Wine) +1 happiness, +5%, -x/2 war unhappiness

Brewery: (Requires Barley) +1 happiness, +5%, -x/2 war unhappiness

The effects of both buildings are included, just divided into two other buildings, so that by building both, it's the same as if you had built the inn and brewery.

 

[Wessel V1]

But then which building is required for inn? I say scrap the inn because IMO buildings like that give the mod a "too much" feeling. There are a lot buildings with very small benefits.

Then Brewery gives +1 happiness, +1happiness for barley
The Inn gives +10% and -x war unhappiness

Here is my proposal. Get rid of the inn, and:

Winery: (Requires Wine) +1 happiness, +5%, -x/2 war unhappiness

Brewery: (Requires Barley) +1 happiness, +5%, -x/2 war unhappiness

The effects of both buildings are included, just divided into two other buildings, so that by building both, it's the same as if you had built the inn and brewery.

Even better, integrate them into one, with 1 happiness base and +5% gold for each resource. The winery + brewery solution feels very arbitrary, it gives the 'too much' feeling even more. The current situation is fine, don't seperate them into nearly the same building for the sake of historicity.

 

[Michael Vick]

I think an inn and a brewery is more "too much" than a brewery and a winery. What do you propose we call this single integrated building?

On this note, are the improvements for wine on the map still called wineries or can we change that to Vineyard with respect to Burgundy's UB?

 

[Wessel V1]

Well, those are still 2 different buildings. The winery and brewery are exactly the same, except these require different resources. That's much more of the same to me than the Inn and the Brewery. Integrate both buildings into one or stick with the current situation I'd say.

 

[3Miro]

Well, those are still 2 different buildings. The winery and brewery are exactly the same, except these require different resources. That's much more of the same to me than the Inn and the Brewery. Integrate both buildings into one or stick with the current situation I'd say.

I think it would be best to have one Brewery the gives happiness with both wine and barley, but no happiness by itself. This would make it so that people would drink the appropriate thing in their region and overall it will drop the amount of happiness in the game (we have a bit too much right now). The Inn can stay as it is.

 

[Wessel V1]

I think it would be best to have one Brewery the gives happiness with both wine and barley, but no happiness by itself. This would make it so that people would drink the appropriate thing in their region and overall it will drop the amount of happiness in the game (we have a bit too much right now). The Inn can stay as it is.

That too is a possibility, improves the current situation somewhat.

EDIT: yay, Emperor Wessel V1 FINALLY made it to 1,000 posts. Hope I didn't spam these forums too much.

 

[Michael Vick]

I think it would be best to have one Brewery the gives happiness with both wine and barley, but no happiness by itself. This would make it so that people would drink the appropriate thing in their region and overall it will drop the amount of happiness in the game (we have a bit too much right now). The Inn can stay as it is.

I can agree with this, but you can't call it a brewery. The name should envelope production of wine, beer and mead (+1 happiness with honey). I can't really think of such a building. I think that if nobody comes up with a suitable name other than brewery, then it should be called a winery. I say this because wineries were found all over Europe, including Northern Europe. Breweries were unique to Northern Europe only. There are also a lot more wine resources than barley resources.

Ideally though, I prefer two separate buildings, the winery and the brewery, and their absorption of the benefits of the inn because I think that breweries and wineries are both a lot more relevant to the game. A winery or brewery each believably affects the economy of a city substantially. Wine/beer make people happy, wine/beer are traded, thus, the benefits we give the brewery. What does an Inn do? An inn gives people a place to stay and serves food and drink. The inn is a small byproduct of the winery that should be represented by +x% in the winery.

Sorry to go on this rant but I'm trying to make the point that an inn is not in the same league of importance as a brewery or winery. The presence of a winery or brewery in any major city to an extent affects the national economy of these civs, making them relevant to the mod and build-able. How can an inn increase a city's wealth by 10% if a bank only increases it by 25%? It just isn't credible, and not all, but some players are going to pick up on this.

I don't want to create a bunch of balance problems, I'm all for keeping balance the same, but 3Miro you said yourself that there was too much happiness, let's not nerf a relevant building like the brewery but instead eliminate some of the odd and inconsistent details. (Like an inn that produces half as much wealth as a market, for example). Give the brewery and the winery small wealth percentages as well as small happiness bonuses, this puts them in the same "minor economic building family" as the weaver, tanner, warehouse, etc., this streamlines the game a bit more and things start to make more sense to the player.

+5% wealth bonuses for the brewery and winery, each of which require their own resource. The wealth bonus represents the expansion of private enterprise within the city caused by the widespread availability of beer or wine (like restaurants, taverns, inns...). Building an inn for % after the brewery is like building a "wool salesman" after the weaver.
Wessel V1, a brewery and winery might sound like much the same thing only because they're being discussed together in a thread. Barley and wine are two different resources so there's nothing wrong with giving them each their own buildings. They produce the same kind of product in a way, but then so do the weaver and the tanner, it's just a difference in the animal they're working, isn't it?

In total, building the winery and brewery with these benefits would result in the same total amount of benefits as building the brewery and inn together. No change to balance, and we just call the Burgundy UB something else.

Congratulations, Emperor

 

[Wessel V1]

Thanks.

I don't think it's a problem to have two seperate buildings connected to wine and beer each. However, I think we should be aware that there are many details to be aware of. For example, beer was actually healthier than water in the Medieval era, so many people drank low alcoholic beer. I'm no expert on this matter but I guess beer and wine were viewed in a different way by the people who drank these beverages. Was wine univerisal in Mediterranian countries?

Now you bring it up though, I think what you propose isn't substantially different than the difference between a Tannery and a Blacksmith, except that those have more resources each. A warehouse is more universal, with all resources integrated into one building. I don't know why it was done this way?

Anyway, the current effects of the brewery are often not needed. Only in recently conquered cities with a large proportion of foreign culture the happiness is needed, because of the unhappiness caused by this. The building is cheap and brings nothing, so either change it's benefits or remove it altogether. Still, I don't know if I'd make it similar to a winery. A building, connected to only one resource with the same purpose... seems overkill to me. In that perspective many, many more buildings could be created.

Oh, and I'm going to pick up on the inn. Not because I disagree, but because the numbers are factually incorrect. In stead of 25%, a bank gives 50% more output, a market increases output by 25%. The effects are much smaller than stated. Not that I disagree with your point as I said, just correcting facts.

 

[Wessel V1]

Wessel V1, a brewery and winery might sound like much the same thing only because they're being discussed together in a thread. Barley and wine are two different resources so there's nothing wrong with giving them each their own buildings. They produce the same kind of product in a way, but then so do the weaver and the tanner, it's just a difference in the animal they're working, isn't it?

That's where my major concern is. It is a problem in my view if two different resources get a different building, except if it is desperately needed. We have many types of resources and also many buildings that are not connected to resources. In the end, we have to select what can be in and what can't. Again, it's not about this being in the thread, but that the current proposal is to create 2 exactly the same buildings (in-game), that serve the same goals with a different resource. A civ like France would be building the same thing twice, to make it work with the one resource and with the other. I don't know if this an improvement. The current buildings aren't perfect either (simply because perfection is impossible), but I sit on the fence on this one.

Knit-picking on the effects though. I think a winery could be a good replacement of the inn, but the effects should be different than those from a brewery.

 

[Michael Vick]

I agree, I didn't think of that, the effects of each could be different. In response to your statement about how not every resource needs a building, this is true, and that's why we don't have butcher shops for pigs, goldsmiths, etc. Wine is, however, an exception, don't you think? Yes, wine cultivation was started in Georgia in 8,000 BC and through the Greek colonization of the Mediterranean, wine was pretty much universal in in the area by the time of the Roman Empire. In the middle ages it was probably the most consumed "luxury resource" and, along with salt, the one of the most widely traded of goods originating in Europe. If we get a winery, it would also get a bonus for having honey. Mead, which is basically wine with honey, was very popular in England, Scandinavia, and Germany.

Here's what I propose based on your suggestion to give them different bonus.

Wine, a more heavily traded luxury produced by the wealthy for the wealthy (with the exception of the Catholic Church distributing its share as well) should produce more wealth effects in the building. Like... 10% wealth and minus war unhappiness. Oh, that sounds a lot like the inn, doesn't it?

Beer, more widely available and consumed by commoners, traded, but not as much as wine, was more of a local phenomenon that didn't just generate money like the wine trade. The brewery should be more happiness oriented. Let's say +1 happiness, and it's less hammers than the winery.

 

[3Miro]

I agree, I didn't think of that, the effects of each could be different. In response to your statement about how not every resource needs a building, this is true, and that's why we don't have butcher shops for pigs, goldsmiths, etc. Wine is, however, an exception, don't you think? Yes, wine cultivation was started in Georgia in 8,000 BC and through the Greek colonization of the Mediterranean, wine was pretty much universal in in the area by the time of the Roman Empire. In the middle ages it was probably the most consumed "luxury resource" and, along with salt, the one of the most widely traded of goods originating in Europe. If we get a winery, it would also get a bonus for having honey. Mead, which is basically wine with honey, was very popular in England, Scandinavia, and Germany.

Here's what I propose based on your suggestion to give them different bonus.

Wine, a more heavily traded luxury produced by the wealthy for the wealthy (with the exception of the Catholic Church distributing its share as well) should produce more wealth effects in the building. Like... 10% wealth and minus war unhappiness. Oh, that sounds a lot like the inn, doesn't it?

Beer, more widely available and consumed by commoners, traded, but not as much as wine, was more of a local phenomenon that didn't just generate money like the wine trade. The brewery should be more happiness oriented. Let's say +1 happiness, and it's less hammers than the winery.

What about Cognac and other hard drinks made from grapes, they fit the Brewery perfectly.

Note that everyone is assumed to have access to every resource, what we label as a resource in the game means that we have exceptional quantities of it. This is a level of abstraction. Same goes for buildings, every town had an Inn and Brewery, what we are building are bigger "chains" of Inns and Breweries.

Resource Grapes: +1 form wine (everyone is making it).
Resource Barley: +1 form the most nutritious grain.

Building Brewery: +1 from Barley (Beer) and +1 from Grapes (Cognac and other types of Grape Brandy), +5% to make it useful even without the resources.

Building Inn: emphasis on Espionage, which included war anger and +2 and the ability to gain a spy. To that we add +5% bonus to make it useful even for non-espionage situations.

 

[Michael Vick]

I forgot about the espionage. Why the inn though? Isn't there a better fitting espionage building like a Member's Club, Secret Society, Bawdyhouse?

What about leaving the inn as purely espionage related, taking away the %?, I just don't see an inn as the kind of place that would generate any kind of wealth for an empire. We could give it an extra espionage bonus since we don't seem to have a specific espionage building, then throw the winery in because it would be unique.

I know it's ultimately your opinion that counts but IMO a brewery just doesn't cut it for wine production. Cognac, sherry, and others as you mentioned are distilled wines, produced either in a winery or a distillery, only beer goes through a brewery.

Consider the possibilities of what could be done with a separate brewery and winery. They can be made completely different. Winery, a commerce/culture building like the weaver which requires wine, but bonuses can be enhanced with honey and sugar (just like the weaver gets better with dye, cotton). The brewery, a happiness building which requires barley but can be enhanced with wheat. You might say that this is too many bonuses, but there isn't any one civ that will have access to the winery, brewery, and weaver at the same time. Southern Europe is completely devoid of barley, France is missing barley, Germanic civs are missing sheep, Britain is missing wine.

If the winery still adds too much benefit then there has to be another building that can be removed or weakened. The winery doesn't deserve a spot any less than the tanner or weaver, brewery, or inn does, IMO.

 

[ezzlar]

I think brewery is too early in the tech tree since it gives a boost similiar to Notre Dame with barley. Instead I could think of Inn:

+10% espionage
+ with barley
+ with wine

Building available with Education (strange tech for inn anyway). Why not change it to alchemy instead to reflect the mixing of strange things to produce beverages?

 

[merijn_v1]

Resource Grapes: +1 form wine (everyone is making it).
Resource Barley: +1 form the most nutritious grain.

Building Brewery: +1 from Barley (Beer) and +1 from Grapes (Cognac and other types of Grape Brandy), +5% to make it useful even without the resources.

Building Inn: emphasis on Espionage, which included war anger and +2 and the ability to gain a spy. To that we add +5% bonus to make it useful even for non-espionage situations.

I think this is the best option. Although the I also think that the Brewery should get another name.

The Burgundian Winery can hold it's bonus.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Moving Inns to Alchemy is aslo a good idea
I also disliked them being tied to Education

 

[3Miro]

Moving Inns to Alchemy is aslo a good idea
I also disliked them being tied to Education

We should rename the Brewery to Tavern, this is generic enough for a place where people meet to drink. We can then associate this with both Wine and Barley.

We can also make the Inn into a "Secret Society" for the espionage bonus. We can remove the gold bonus altogether and give the Inn a defensive bonus "Helps Thwart Enemy Spies".