For a start. I was only doing what 3Miro asked me to do in the previous post.
Which is to come up with a few techs to follow Arabic Knowledge which all other civs would get when they researched AK. The Muslim civs would just get them earlier.
Sure, and I have no problem with this in principle. It's not the names of the techs or the fact that they exist that bothers me. It's the
effects, which are unlike any non-future tech available.
The Golden Age is just a proposal. Drop it if its not appropriate.
The benefits of the techs again are just a suggestion. Put whatever effects you like on them. Or none.
Do we have this type of effect for other techs? We have techs that incur benefits - workers build improvements 50% faster, road movement increases by 50%/turn, etc (actually, we don't have that second one in, and we should put it somewhere).
I don't have a problem with techs that have bonuses attached. I do have a problem with every tech in the proposed revamp of this section of the tree conferring a large bonus, particularly when that section is available primarily to one small subset of civs, which you seem intent on building this mod specifically for. It is difficult for me to evaluate this proposal independently from other proposals you have made which elevate Cordoba over the other civs in the mod, when that would be the effect of this most recent proposal.
Arabic Medicine is not a future tech. It's in the tech tree already and becomes available after Arabic Knowledge which comes after Chemistry. Which is required for any civ that wants to research Medicine. (Please re-read the tech tree.) And is available to any civ once they research AK. So how is it any more of a future tech than Scientific Method, Physics or Steam Engines which also come after Chemistry?
Again. Its not a separate tech tree. Its not a revision of the tech tree but an addition of several techs which are available to all civs. Exactly the same as Whitefire's proposed additions to the tech tree, which I completely support. As you support as well AFAIK.
My question about Arabic Medicine being a future tech was rhetorical, in that it grants the same bonus as a future tech, despite being far earlier in the tech tree. Obviously, it is not a future tech, as other techs come after it. My question was intended to illustrate the inappropriate nature of putting a future tech bonus on a mid-game technology.
I don't intend to respond to your last comments which may be accurate and intemperate because I think you have completely misunderstood what 3Miro has asked for, which I have provided a
proposal for.
Perhaps you'd like to re-read 3Miro's post (no.324) and think again
I had 3Miro's post open when I wrote my initial post. Please re-read my statement again - 'But any separate tech tree,' (which this is not) 'or revision of the existing tech tree, cannot unfairly confer benefits on one set of civs over another.'
Which, again, is exactly my point. Is there anything else in the tech tree that looks like this set of techs?
We have six proposed techs here stemming from Arabic Knowledge. Two of them have no function, except to act as prerequisites for later techs.
Of those later techs, the first makes available a world wonder and an extremely powerful foot unit with a built-in promotion.
The second makes available a powerful research-boosting building, AND somehow confers +2 science on the civ. +2 science in what sense of the term? +2 per city? Per building? Per specialist? Per turn? Do we have any other techs that do anything like this? (no.)
The third tech enables an 'advanced water mill'; presumably this is an upgrade to the terrain improvement granting 1 extra food and 1 extra commerce, where
entire civics grant only half of that per specific improvement, usually with a significant penalty attached. Additionally, this tech makes another significant world wonder available.
The fourth tech has the same bonus effect as reaching future tech 1, despite coming far earlier in the tech tree. It also enables a building which presumably provides another significant health bonus.
And to top it off, the lucky player who finishes researching all of these techs gets a golden age!
Again, do we have
any series of techs in the game that confer this type of power? No, for good reason! The civ who researches Arabic Knowledge first is much like the civ who beats everyone to Assembly Line or Liberalism in standard RFC - no matter which subsequent tech they pick, they'll have a significant advantage over all of the others. If this tech was available to everyone at roughly the same time, that
might be ok - but it isn't.
Once again, I am not trying to insult you. I am glad that you are making proposals to improve the mod, and you were asked to do this - this isn't an unsolicited suggestion to add flying Bohemian machine-gunners. Still, it's really hard to look at this and not see your strong interest in Muslim Iberia shining through. I defer to your expertise on that particular field of history, and it's a good thing for the mod that you are well versed in it. The benefits conferred by these techs may be historically appropriate - certainly, there's grounds for argument there. The problem that we keep running into here is that this elevates one small part of the mod over all others, in a way that unbalances things badly. I'm trying to stay
away from the subjects I know the most about, to avoid introducing my biases into the thing - if design of the mod were based on my area of historical expertise, the crowning achievements would be the rich and detailed Crusader states and Mongol invasions.
But that's not what we're trying to accomplish. We're trying to make a worthy version of RFC centered on Europe from the collapse of the Western Roman Empire to the Industrial Revolution. We've all got our biases and they'll be reflected in the final product, but we need to do our best to keep their influence to a minimum.