Rhye's of Europe Technology Tree Discussion Thread

Astrology: No objection to adding it, but what purpose does it serve? We don't need any more spacing on the naval branch. It's was already well designed, I just moved map trading up to a more logically named tech.

Why did you move Classical Knowledge from after Literature to after Monasticism?

Is Herbal Medicine a starting tech now (no pre-req)?

Why is Feudalism a pre-req for Spinning Wheels instead of Machinery?

Why is Farriers a pre-req for Aristocracy? Feudalism seems more logical.

I like the addition of steel.

By Keyhole I assume you mean Keystone.

Why do the Arabs get Battlefield Medicine and Advanced Irrigation Methods?

You missed the idea behind the Great Schism/Christianity/Qua'ran. I'll try to finish a revamp of the tree so you can install it and see what I mean.

1. Drop Astrology if you like. Just a thought.

2. Again, not a problem. Leave Classical Knowledge where it is now for the Christian side at least. Historically, it really only became available to Christian Europe by translations from Arabic in the 12th.C anyway.

3. My error. Herbal Medicine requires Monasticism first. Although, to be fair, it could come before the
birth of Christianity in Europe. Either way works for me.

3. Spinning Wheel should need both Feudalism and Machinery so it doesn't become available too early in the tech tree IMO.

4. Sorry I didn't make the link clear. As the next Cavalry tech it should of course require Feudalism as well.

5. Agreed. Steel swords were an important Arab advantage before 1200AD. What about the idea of the Heavy Swordsman as the attacking Late Middle Ages unit you proposed?

6. No I mean Keyhole. Also known as the Moorish arch or Horseshoe Arch because of its shape.
(see pic below of the interior of the Great Mosque of Cordoba)

7. Everyone would be able to research Battlefield Medicine and Advanced Irrigation after they researched Arabic Knowledge. Did I not make that clear? Its just that the Arabs get access to it earlier for the reasons I described. An early Arab advantage in both techs is very appropriate historically.

8. I'll leave the Great Schism/ Christianity thing for you to work out. It really has no relevence to the proposed Arab tech path which only needs to start from Theology>Monasticism as I see it.

EDIT I've just realized (dumb me:crazyeye:) that the Muslim civs start with Arabic Knowledge as default anyway. So I've suggested a solution to avoid a separate tech branch in my post to 3Miro below. This would allow us to add a couple of techs leading from Arabic Knowledge and the problem is solved. Have a look below.
 
Are you guys rewriting the tech tree?

Different tech branches are kind I think. We can simply make it more generic. Christianity should not be a tech (at least not in the a mod starting 500AD). The Great Schism's official date is in 11th century, why would Byzantines start with it? We could try to represent a unified Christin world until around 10-11 century, but even then Byzantines and the Pope were not in best of terms for centuries earlier. I actually think the current model for the religions and techs is OK.

Swap techs if needed, add techs, but I don't see the need for completely different tech trees for Islamic and European civs. Were those two fundamentally that different? I think they both had pretty similar concepts (holy war = crusade/jihad, religious prosecutions (stronger for the Christians), and so on), just put general conceptual name on the tech tree. (BTW the change in the tech tree is more than XML issue, it would require significant C++ coding, which I will not be able to do until some time in January).

Good point about the Great Schism. I hadn't really thought of it coming as late as that, but you're right. Whitefire feels we have to represent the split between Catholicism and Orthodoxy somehow. Maybe so, but I'm OK with the way we've got it now. I'm happy either way.

However I think we do have to represent the difference between the Muslim and Christian civs in one important aspect. The Arabs had access to knowledge of the Greeks, Romans, Indians and Chinese. And their religion encouraged knowledge and scientific investgation. Most European civs lost contact with the rest of the world and Classical knowledge during the Dark Ages and the Catholic Church expressly forbad enquiry into any earlier sources which they regarded as pagan. It was not until the 12th.C that scholars dared to investigate the works of Aristotle, Euclid, etc which they could only get from Arab translations. This helped quick-start the Renaissance and helped Europe recover from being so massively behind the Muslims in science, medicine and technology.

But I'm not suggesting totally different tech trees at all. Just a short diversion in one branch only which allows the Muslim civs to gain Steel Smelting, Arabic Knowledge, Arabic Medicine, etc. before the others. It would be pretty silly if the other civs could research Arabic Knowledge etc. before the Arabs could get it, wouldn't it? They would then rejoin the main tree at Art>>>Music>>>Literature etc. And the Christian civs could gain all the same knowledge once they researched Arabic Knowledge.
Just one small, short diversion in one tech branch only, not a completely separate tech tree.

EDIT There may be an alternative which accomplishs the same end without a separate tech path. I've only noticed this while playing as Cordoba today. Obviously I forgot that the Muslim civs start with Arabic Knowledge as default. Right? In order for them to research Arabic Medicine (which requires Chemistry) they have to beeline through at least 12 techs to get there. What if we made Arabic Medicine only require Arabic Knowledge plus Alchemy (just 4-5 techs to research)? Then they would have it early while the other civs would still need to tech to Arabic Knowledge first. A much easier solution and historically accurate as well. If only I'd thought of it earlier.:crazyeye:
 
This is an idea:

Add some cheap techs after the somewhat later and more expensive Arabic Knowledge. Arabs (and Cordobans) would be able to get to the cheap techs early on (since thet start with AK), and Euro civs would have to reach AK first. That way the tech level of Arabs and Euros would be different from in the beginning but not the end.
 
This is an idea:

Add some cheap techs after the somewhat later and more expensive Arabic Knowledge. Arabs (and Cordobans) would be able to get to the cheap techs early on (since thet start with AK), and Euro civs would have to reach AK first. That way the tech level of Arabs and Euros would be different from in the beginning but not the end.

OK. Sorry about wasting everbody's time on this. If I'd realised from the start that the Arabs and Cordobans got AK by default I wouldn't have had any issue about it. (kinda embarrassing really. gulp!). I'll do what you suggest.
 
@3Miro. As per your suggestion above, I'd like to propose this.

....................................................../Steel Smelting......................................\
........................./Eastern................../(with Blast Furnace -enables.....................\
......................../Knowledge>>>>>>>>\ Elite Swordsman 10/1(Shock prom.)............\
......................./...............................\and "The Tomb of Khalid ibn al Walid" WW.....\
....................../.................................\............................................................\
...................../...................................\Advanced Mathematics(+2 Science)..............\
..................../.....................................\ ...enables Academy ..................................\
Arabic Knowledge.....................................(replaces Laboratory)............starts a Golden Age and
....................\..........................................................................allows "The Alhambra Palace" WW
......................................................................................................................../
......................\.............................../Agricultural Revolution(+1 food, +1 commerce)../
........................\............................/enables "Noria" advanced water mill................./
..........................\Arabic................../and "The Gardens of Al Andalus" WW................/
...........................\Science>>>>>>>>\.............................................................../
......................................................\............................................................/
........................................................\Arabic Medicine(+1 health, +1 happiness).../
.........................................................\enables Public Hospital........................../

I would also suggest for the Muslim civs renaming Vaulted Arches and Gothic Architecture as,
"Horseshoe Arches" and "Islamic Architecture".
 
Wait, what's this about a golden age? Do other technologies grant these? Are they available to non-Muslim civs?

Why would discovering a technology lead to a GA? We have a wonder that has this same effect, and it's not that difficult to get a GA with great people.


Where does the +2 science come in? +2 science to what?

What gets the +1 commerce and +1 food bonus?

Is Arabic Medicine a future tech, as it has the same benefit as Industrial Revolution techs? Are ALL of these future techs? Why would you give the Muslim civs all of these extra benefits, which are unavailable to other civs?



I'm not trying to be insulting, but this is completely inappropriate. If we need a separate tech tree for Muslim civs, that's fine, and maybe it's worth looking into creating one. But any separate tech tree, or revision of the existing tech tree, cannot unfairly confer benefits on one civ or set of civs over another.

Isn't it enough that the Muslim civs start with a tech lead, have strong UU's, a disproportionate number of wonders, an uncontested holy city, few natural enemies, and room to expand?
 
Wait, what's this about a golden age? Do other technologies grant these? Are they available to non-Muslim civs?

Why would discovering a technology lead to a GA? We have a wonder that has this same effect, and it's not that difficult to get a GA with great people.


Where does the +2 science come in? +2 science to what?

What gets the +1 commerce and +1 food bonus?

Is Arabic Medicine a future tech, as it has the same benefit as Industrial Revolution techs? Are ALL of these future techs? Why would you give the Muslim civs all of these extra benefits, which are unavailable to other civs?



I'm not trying to be insulting, but this is completely inappropriate. If we need a separate tech tree for Muslim civs, that's fine, and maybe it's worth looking into creating one. But any separate tech tree, or revision of the existing tech tree, cannot unfairly confer benefits on one civ or set of civs over another.

Isn't it enough that the Muslim civs start with a tech lead, have strong UU's, a disproportionate number of wonders, an uncontested holy city, few natural enemies, and room to expand?

For a start. I was only doing what 3Miro asked me to do in the previous post.

Which is to come up with a few techs to follow Arabic Knowledge which all other civs would get when they researched AK. The Muslim civs would just get them earlier.

The Golden Age is just a proposal. Drop it if its not appropriate.

The benefits of the techs again are just a suggestion. Put whatever effects you like on them. Or none.

Arabic Medicine is not a future tech. It's in the tech tree already and becomes available after Arabic Knowledge which comes after Chemistry. Which is required for any civ that wants to research Medicine. (Please re-read the tech tree.) And is available to any civ once they research AK. So how is it any more of a future tech than Scientific Method, Physics or Steam Engines which also come after Chemistry?
Again. Its not a separate tech tree. Its not a revision of the tech tree but an addition of several techs which are available to all civs. Exactly the same as Whitefire's proposed additions to the tech tree, which I completely support. As you support as well AFAIK.

I don't intend to respond to your last comments which may be inaccurate and intemperate because I think you have completely misunderstood what 3Miro has asked for, which I have provided a proposal for.
Perhaps you'd like to re-read 3Miro's post (no.324) and think again:)
 
For a start. I was only doing what 3Miro asked me to do in the previous post.

Which is to come up with a few techs to follow Arabic Knowledge which all other civs would get when they researched AK. The Muslim civs would just get them earlier.

Sure, and I have no problem with this in principle. It's not the names of the techs or the fact that they exist that bothers me. It's the effects, which are unlike any non-future tech available.


The Golden Age is just a proposal. Drop it if its not appropriate.

The benefits of the techs again are just a suggestion. Put whatever effects you like on them. Or none.

Do we have this type of effect for other techs? We have techs that incur benefits - workers build improvements 50% faster, road movement increases by 50%/turn, etc (actually, we don't have that second one in, and we should put it somewhere).

I don't have a problem with techs that have bonuses attached. I do have a problem with every tech in the proposed revamp of this section of the tree conferring a large bonus, particularly when that section is available primarily to one small subset of civs, which you seem intent on building this mod specifically for. It is difficult for me to evaluate this proposal independently from other proposals you have made which elevate Cordoba over the other civs in the mod, when that would be the effect of this most recent proposal.

Arabic Medicine is not a future tech. It's in the tech tree already and becomes available after Arabic Knowledge which comes after Chemistry. Which is required for any civ that wants to research Medicine. (Please re-read the tech tree.) And is available to any civ once they research AK. So how is it any more of a future tech than Scientific Method, Physics or Steam Engines which also come after Chemistry?
Again. Its not a separate tech tree. Its not a revision of the tech tree but an addition of several techs which are available to all civs. Exactly the same as Whitefire's proposed additions to the tech tree, which I completely support. As you support as well AFAIK.

My question about Arabic Medicine being a future tech was rhetorical, in that it grants the same bonus as a future tech, despite being far earlier in the tech tree. Obviously, it is not a future tech, as other techs come after it. My question was intended to illustrate the inappropriate nature of putting a future tech bonus on a mid-game technology.

I don't intend to respond to your last comments which may be accurate and intemperate because I think you have completely misunderstood what 3Miro has asked for, which I have provided a proposal for.
Perhaps you'd like to re-read 3Miro's post (no.324) and think again:)

I had 3Miro's post open when I wrote my initial post. Please re-read my statement again - 'But any separate tech tree,' (which this is not) 'or revision of the existing tech tree, cannot unfairly confer benefits on one set of civs over another.'

Which, again, is exactly my point. Is there anything else in the tech tree that looks like this set of techs?

We have six proposed techs here stemming from Arabic Knowledge. Two of them have no function, except to act as prerequisites for later techs.
Of those later techs, the first makes available a world wonder and an extremely powerful foot unit with a built-in promotion.
The second makes available a powerful research-boosting building, AND somehow confers +2 science on the civ. +2 science in what sense of the term? +2 per city? Per building? Per specialist? Per turn? Do we have any other techs that do anything like this? (no.)
The third tech enables an 'advanced water mill'; presumably this is an upgrade to the terrain improvement granting 1 extra food and 1 extra commerce, where entire civics grant only half of that per specific improvement, usually with a significant penalty attached. Additionally, this tech makes another significant world wonder available.
The fourth tech has the same bonus effect as reaching future tech 1, despite coming far earlier in the tech tree. It also enables a building which presumably provides another significant health bonus.
And to top it off, the lucky player who finishes researching all of these techs gets a golden age!

Again, do we have any series of techs in the game that confer this type of power? No, for good reason! The civ who researches Arabic Knowledge first is much like the civ who beats everyone to Assembly Line or Liberalism in standard RFC - no matter which subsequent tech they pick, they'll have a significant advantage over all of the others. If this tech was available to everyone at roughly the same time, that might be ok - but it isn't.

Once again, I am not trying to insult you. I am glad that you are making proposals to improve the mod, and you were asked to do this - this isn't an unsolicited suggestion to add flying Bohemian machine-gunners. Still, it's really hard to look at this and not see your strong interest in Muslim Iberia shining through. I defer to your expertise on that particular field of history, and it's a good thing for the mod that you are well versed in it. The benefits conferred by these techs may be historically appropriate - certainly, there's grounds for argument there. The problem that we keep running into here is that this elevates one small part of the mod over all others, in a way that unbalances things badly. I'm trying to stay away from the subjects I know the most about, to avoid introducing my biases into the thing - if design of the mod were based on my area of historical expertise, the crowning achievements would be the rich and detailed Crusader states and Mongol invasions.

But that's not what we're trying to accomplish. We're trying to make a worthy version of RFC centered on Europe from the collapse of the Western Roman Empire to the Industrial Revolution. We've all got our biases and they'll be reflected in the final product, but we need to do our best to keep their influence to a minimum.
 
Sorry to quibble, but shouldn't it be "Islamic Knowledge" & "Islamic Medicine" (or perhaps something else, maybe Eastern?) since we're referring to Islamic civilization and not exclusively Arab civilization. Also, I thing Arabic only refers to the language, Arab would be a better choice if we decide to stick with it.
 
@st. lucifer. I understand your point about avoiding personal biases in this and admit I haven't been vigilant enough in putting mine aside. I concede your point.

My response to your points are these. In responding to 3Miros suggestion, I have tried to add a handful of techs which reflect an early Islamic lead in some areas but which become available to all civs in the mod.
Please don't take my suggestion of their effects or benefits as anything more than rough guideline. I leave the strength of those for the rest of you to decide as you are more qualified to judge their affect on gameplay/balance etc.
While I would like to retain the proposed techs for the reason of flavour and historical accuracy I am more than happy for others to judge the precise research rate for each one so they align more closely to the very end of the tech tree.
For example we already require Arabic Medicine and other techs to research Medicine, which only becomes available very close to the end of the game (which is appropriate). Along with minimizing their actual benefits could we not code in long tech rates so these other techs also can only be researched late in the game as well?

As for the wonders I've proposed which are specifically Arabic, we don't actually have any yet. Just proposals. I associated these 3 only with the proposed techs only because they seemed appropriate and flavourful. If we wish to make them available at some point earlier, that's fine with me too.
The one point I'd like to make in closing is about the Elite Swordsman which is enabled by Steel Smelting. A similiar late Middle Ages attacking unit was suggested by Whitefire. Could we not make steel-smelting available for all civs with the Muslim civs getting it a little earlier (200years historically) so they it was an available unit to all civs at some point?

In general, I only offer a rough guideline. I'm happy with whatever way people want to use it.
Or not, as the case may be.:)
 
Please also add flying bohemian machine gunners, at least for the graphics. Funny, not too far a leap from winged hussars.

Your point about Islamic vs. Arabic is well-taken.

BTW Did you ever play Civ2 Fantastic Worlds? My vote goes to the dinosaur barbs.
Or maybe Captain Nemo and the Nautilus?:lol:
 
@st. lucifer. I understand your point about avoiding personal biases in this and admit I haven't been vigilant enough in putting mine aside. I concede your point.

My response to your points are these. In responding to 3Miros suggestion, I have tried to add a handful of techs which reflect an early Islamic lead in some areas but which become available to all civs in the mod.
Please don't take my suggestion of their effects or benefits as anything more than rough guideline. I leave the strength of those for the rest of you to decide as you are more qualified to judge their affect on gameplay/balance etc.
While I would like to retain the proposed techs for the reason of flavour and historical accuracy I am more than happy for others to judge the precise research rate for each one so they align more closely to the very end of the tech tree.
For example we already require Arabic Medicine and other techs to research Medicine, which only becomes available very close to the end of the game (which is appropriate). Along with minimizing their actual benefits could we not code in long tech rates so these other techs also can only be researched late in the game as well?

As for the wonders I've proposed which are specifically Arabic, we don't actually have any yet. Just proposals. I associated these 3 only with the proposed techs only because they seemed appropriate and flavourful. If we wish to make them available at some point earlier, that's fine with me too.
The one point I'd like to make in closing is about the Elite Swordsman which is enabled by Steel Smelting. A similiar late Middle Ages attacking unit was suggested by Whitefire. Could we not make steel-smelting available for all civs with the Muslim civs getting it a little earlier (200years historically) so they it was an available unit to all civs at some point?

In general, I only offer a rough guideline. I'm happy with whatever way people want to use it.
Or not, as the case may be.:)

I have no objections to anything you've said here.

Let's see if we can rework the techs so the benefits are more reasonable. Perhaps we can move some things (the wonders?) to the bridge techs, which currently have no function assigned.

Have steel smelting reveal coal, give a +10% bonus to the existing production bonus for forge, and enable the elite swordsman unit (which we should rename). Then make that tech damned expensive. :)

Consider doing similar things for the other proposed techs. I like the idea of having Agricultural Revolution improve the function of the watermill, although we might want to limit it to one bonus rather than two. I'd also suggest renaming it - 'agricultural revolution' could refer to any of a number of innovations, and has been used to describe many periods of history.

Again, I appreciate the work, and I'm not trying to attack anyone personally. Thanks for being flexible.
 
2 final suggestions then I'll let you get off to bed.

1. I still like the Alhambra as a late game reward for finishing the 4 techs.

2. "Champion Swordsman" might be more suitable historically.
 
This post is mostly just for subscribing to this thread, but...

I find it funny that somebody recommended the research institute graphic be used considering that that is a FUTURE building in the regular game!

I might post the tech tree from Age of Empires II later on if it helps. And AoE III after that!
 
This post is mostly just for subscribing to this thread, but...

I find it funny that somebody recommended the research institute graphic be used considering that that is a FUTURE building in the regular game!

I might post the tech tree from Age of Empires II later on if it helps. And AoE III after that!

Congratulations! You've just bumped a thread that's nearly a year old. I don't think the tech tree is really in debate anymore, so Aoe wouldn't be much help either. Sorry.:D
 
Whoops. I didn't realize that the thread was almost a year old.

Oh well, if discussion on the tech tree is really *done* then I suppose our posts can be removed.
 
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