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Ridiculous Culture Flip a Deal Breaker

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by bamdorf, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. bamdorf

    bamdorf Chieftain

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    OK, so I capture an Incan city. I post 20 units in it. I add entertainers til everyone is happy. I crash build a temple, a library, and a courthouse.

    *Flip*

    :mad::mad::mad::mad:

    I read the entire thread on culture flipping. I see Patton's Third army occupying Aachen, say. *flip*. Patton decided the Nazis had Wagner, and went over. Riiiight.

    Title says it all, argue all you want. It's a deal breaker. That a city would go back into resistance, yes. But military units from a winning army aren't going to flip.

    It's a deal breaker. Back to Civ 5, I think! Oh well, I got my $1.24 worth for sure!
     
  2. iPwn

    iPwn Chieftain

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    Do you often put your most valuable assets in dangerous places?
     
  3. bamdorf

    bamdorf Chieftain

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    You got me --- I don't protect my valuable assets with 20 divisions of artillery, cavalry, and infantry, all battle tested veterans or elite units. But it is because I can't afford it.
    :rolleyes:
     
  4. nyarmondt

    nyarmondt Chieftain

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    if it's conquest you're playing, you can turn of culture flip
     
  5. Kulko

    Kulko Innocent Bystander

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    Yes you are right, its not the best feature of the game, especiall the way its implemented, but once you know it, its easy to live with.

    Also CA II is giving you info if you are at risk, seriously reducing the chance something really desastrous is happening.

    And believ me going back to C5 is just not an option, as C3C is the better game.
     
  6. bamdorf

    bamdorf Chieftain

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    I checked this out (last night) and it is true...but you need to do at the start of the game. But on the other hand, having played Civs with all the defaults for about 20 years or so, since Civ 1, and having seen flips here and there, it was never a big deal. I had had Philadelphia flip on me in this game, but I understood that, as I had pulled out my units to consolidate and hold my beachhead.

    As far as Civ Assist II warning you, that I was not aware of. Good point. My bad. But here's the thing. If a city is restive, and it occupies an important tactical position, what do you do? You reinforce the hell out it to keep order.

    But not in this game.

    Yes, you can deal with it --- sort of. Just park your main army outside the town, and then start a war to retake the city. That makes sense....NOT. Like Prague flipping back to the Czechs after the Soviet tanks rolled in. Right.

    And it's so easy to have something sensible that is still a problem to deal with. Pop up:
    City XXX has gone into Revolt! Your garrision is under attack! You...

    A) Pull out and concede the city to the rebels. Gain diplo faction with the mother country. Lose the city.

    B) Negotiate with the rebels and allow them partial autonomy. You then have right of passage through the city, but no control over builds or use of buildings in the city (ex. no quick heals from barracks, no airlift from airports). No diplo effect, as mother country is doubtful. Air units automatically rebase to the closest site. Etc.

    C) You squash the resistance. Your units fight the rebels, who have a combat strength (say) equal to the pop of the city. If the rebels win you lose the city. Otherwise you retain the city, accept what losses the rebels inflicted, lose random buildings to rebel sabotage, and take a big diplo hit to the mother country (good chance of DoW).

    Your choice. Anybody could use this template and adjust as needed. Took me about 1 minute to come up with this.

    Note in such a scheme an army group does not surrender to civilian rioters. Not on my home planet. And withdrawing units from the trouble spot :)crazyeye:) is not a recommended action. And the sun does not turn into a lollipop. Just saying.

    Hey if you like it, play it.

    Some people said this happened to them, they got real mad, but they got over it. I am more upset about this today than I was yesterday. Hey they changed the combat from Civ 1 because it was crazy that once in a while a warrior would kill a battleship. That's not even close to this ---it is just anti-intuitive weirdo nonsense. IMO, of course.
     
  7. CommandoBob

    CommandoBob AbstractArt

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    City flipping is frustrating. No doubt about it.

    The only turn a city is safe from flipping is the turn you build it or the turn you capture it.

    Things that influence a city's flip risk include city size, demographic make up of the city's population (your people vs. their people), number of tiles which immediately surrond and are controled by the AI, culture of each civ, distance to the various capitals and how many units of yours are in the city over the IBT. And probably some other things, too. The formula is buried here on the forum, somewhere.

    CivAssistII and MapStat will show you the flip risk and how many units need to be in the city to prevent it from flipping. This is very helpful.

    Anti-Flipping Tools
    Reduce the city size by starvation and building/rushing Workers or Settlers when you can. These will become Worker (AI) and Settler (AI). Use them or not. A Settler (AI) will found a city with the first citizen being the AI citizen. Neither will require any upkeep.

    Depending on the local situation, do not defend the city. Keep units stationed outside the city to recapture it if it flips.

    Kill that AI.

    Don't let it get to you too much. When it flips and you retake it, calmly raze that sucker to the ground and pour salt upon its ruins. It won't flip again. :D
     
  8. bamdorf

    bamdorf Chieftain

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    I don't see the salt thing on the menu...OH...you were speaking figuratively.
    I like the sentiment!

    I am trying to drag myself, kicking and screaming, into making peace with this. The whole business of parking outside a city is just bizarre. Oh Well. There is one way to make 100 per cent sure a city won't flip to a certain AI.

    Kill all his cities. I did the experiment...it works! :p
     
  9. r16

    r16 not deity

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    city flips will always happen , if the AI likes the cheapshot of knocking you out so simply . Happens a lot to me .
     
  10. thetrooper

    thetrooper Schweinhund

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    Raze it unless it holds a key wonder (Pyr or Sun).
     
  11. Everkane

    Everkane Valar Morghulis

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    When you take over a city which is close to the border of the native country you may want to build a library or even a temple as soon the resisting is over for a matter of border expansion. It may not prevent a cultural flip but it gives you a time for taking the other cities around it so it won't be nearby the cultural border of the enemy anymore.

    Still, surround the city and put only two units to refuse the resistance, otherwise if it flips (without you even have time for culture expansion rushing a library or something) your units will be able to get the city again without a problem. Don't you ever put your units inside a border city if it's risky to cultural flip.

    I know it may doesn't make much sense but that's how the game is and once you get over it you can take advantage of cultural flipping enemy cities a bit easy.

    Of course if you are not going for a Diplomatic victory you can raze the city, it will provide you some slaves, but have in mind the other country will never forgive you for this. I don't like razing cities even if I'm not going for Diplomatic since they will be furious forever and it may get things harder when you start a negociation for trading purposes.
     
  12. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Best way to deal with it in your private games: just disable that stupid feature.
    (Unfortunately in the GOTMs it is always enabled, and these days the GOTMs/COTMs are just about the only games I have the time to play :()
     
  13. bamdorf

    bamdorf Chieftain

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    I just finished a dom win, 1786, right after I took Cuzco. I used the trick of putting all units outside the city, in most cases, although I did pick a city here and there for the barracks quick heal, and just posted enough units to hold it. (according to CivAssistII).
    Of course that doesn't work sometimes, like when 28 units are needed! And I used enough entertainers to keep everyone happy in the cities, and crash built temples for the border pops.

    It was suggested I drop this game early and jump in difficulty. I thought I still had some stuff to learn that I would want to know about before raising the bar.

    I conclude that I was right :lol: Now I need to decide if I should turn off flips.
     
  14. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Chieftain

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  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    i never really loved that feature, but hey, it is not that difficult to deal with. and when saying this i mean Deity and Sid games, the only ones i am playing as a single player. so, i absolutely understand your frustration in the moment when you lost your army, but hey again, this i how this game works, and it is only a minor feature.

    or, since you seem to love to see it in terms of realism - you could see it just like Stalingrad: if the Germans had pulled out, they might have taken the city at will after a successful open battle; since they decided to go in, they lost to the "cultural will" of the defenders to hold that specific town.

    after all, "Patton" in your example only is overcome by the city defenders, and does not decide to change sides. (=description of game mechanics in normal words)

    t_x
     
  16. Skullsplitter

    Skullsplitter Chieftain

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    My favorite way of dealing with flipping is to gift the city to another civ, preferably one on a different continent, or better yet, the one just on the far side of the civ you took the city from.

    Improves relationship with that civ, then if it flips, worsens the relations between those two, possibly resulting in war; if the ex-owner attacks it, the civ you are fighting now has a two-front war.
     
  17. Jim Crow

    Jim Crow Chieftain

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    Grrr, i also need to vent my frustrations here

    I was playing the ancient mediterranean mod on the historical big map as Saba.

    Suddenly the Medes are my borders, way stronger than me, and offcourse they declare war.

    After they take my first city, the turn after that another city flips to them, whose core land is literaly almost on the other side of the map.
    Pffff, I don't even want citizens that are this disloyal, what a bunch of cowards !!!

    Decided to stop playing this map, but that's mostly because my computer can't handle the vastness of the map, waiting turns are allready waay too long for beginning of the game more or less
     
  18. Theov

    Theov Chieftain

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    I take a gamble the first few turns and station some units in there to quell resisters - preferably I park bad units in there.
    I build workers (if I need them) from the city to reduce the population.
    Then I park some units outside if I am not on a roll.
    ASAP go to the next city to reduce their culture.
    If the city is badly placed or has no value anyway - I raze it if I'm playing to conquer.
    Road it, so the luxuries can make the people happy.

    And if it flips, I make sure I get it again - the city wasn't that valuable anyway and the defense isn't that strong anyway.

    But whatever you do; quell resisters and GTFO ASAP.
     
  19. Dishpan_Hans

    Dishpan_Hans Chieftain

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    I swear I had a city with a Forbidden Palace flip once. Wasted that Great Leader rush.
     
  20. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Wasn't it Civ II that had the empire-wide flips? I seem to recall losing entirely one-half of my empire in a game.
     

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